Is the Theory of Evolution on the ropes?

[Modelworks]

Um... causality doesn't have to have a beginning. There's nothing contradictory or incoherent about an infinite regress of causes. Infinite ordered sets with no least element are handled easily in set theory.

Physicist have argued various ways to try to handle the problem, but there is no mutually accepted solution. It is the reason so many studies are being conducted on the 'God' particle.

 

[Modelworks]

When Jesus said "With God, all things are possible," did he really mean just some things, then?

Read the whole passage, not excerpts. Also read what Islamic, Buddhist say.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Physicist have argued various ways to try to handle the problem, but there is no mutually accepted solution. It is the reason so many studies are being conducted on the 'God' particle.

Physicists may debate whether or not there actually is a beginning, but they do not debate whether or not there has to be a beginning, because there doesn't, for the reasons I've given.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Read the whole passage, not excerpts.

Feel free to cite any part that would diminish the prima facie reading of the verse I cited.

Also read what Islamic, Buddhist say.

What difference would that make? You said no god ever made a claim of omnipotence. I only need one counterexample to falsify your claim.

 

[Modelworks]

Feel free to cite any part that would diminish the prima facie reading of the verse I cited.

The passage is referring to the heart of man and how it can be changed by God and that it is not possible for man to change his heart in the same way without God. The same way that 'turn the other cheek' is often interpreted to mean that you should just let people beat you up and not fight back. It doesn't mean that at all. It refers to forgiveness not physical acts.

What difference would that make? You said no god ever made a claim of omnipotence. I only need one counterexample to falsify your claim.

No God has ever said they were omnipotent like you are using the term. If the God in the Christian text were omnipotent like you are using it then nothing in the bible would ever take place. Instead the God in the text repeatedly does things to test the outcome, not unlike a scientist would do.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The passage is referring to the heart of man and how it can be changed by God and that it is not possible for man to change his heart in the same way without God. The same way that 'turn the other cheek' is often interpreted to mean that you should just let people beat you up and not fight back. It doesn't mean that at all. It refers to forgiveness not physical acts.

Did Jesus say "With God, it is possible to change the heart of a man," or did he say that "all things are possible"?

No God has ever said they were omnipotent like you are using the term.

I take the term to mean "able to accomplish all possible things." It sure seems to read that way in the verse I cited.

If the God in the Christian text were omnipotent like you are using it then nothing in the bible would ever take place. Instead the God in the text repeatedly does things to test the outcome, not unlike a scientist would do.

It is not my problem that the Bible is inconsistent.

 

[mattpegher]

Nowhere in any religion does a God ever say he is omnipotent, that is something that mankind labeled a God as being. Most Gods refer to themselves as being the start of something or being knowledgeable but never omnipotent.

So you are saying your god is not omnipotent. He has limitations? What are they? Who created these limitation? Does God have a God that created him.

The accepted definition of the Judeochristian God is Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnitemporal and Omnibenevolent.
Ask any christian is God not
All powerfull, "Allmighty God"
All knowing
Ever present
Has always been
and
All good

What most religions refuse to waver from these definitions.

If you wish to offer an alternative definitions of the characteristic of a god please do so. For anything less than the above would not IMHO define "supreme being"

 

[FelixDeCat]

I agree. Although my current thoughts on theism are in flux. From a purely metaphysical thought process, it is irrational to think that an omnipotent god would not be able to design and predict the outcome his actions such that the laws of physics would eventually lead to the level of complexity that is life, and human evolution. It is therefore illogical to assume that such a being would need to break his own laws to produce any desired effect. Also, it would be illogical to assume that he would need to "adjust" his creation as this god would also be defined as omniscient including temporal events.

I know the laws of physics are broken when miracles are performed. Many are spoken of in the Bible and I see them all the time when some prayers are answered.

Time is perceived differently by God. Today is the first day of the universe and the last day. Its hard to imagine that all possible outcomes of everyone that exists could be known but He knows them. He gave us free will so we can change our path in time and He knows what will happen based on our choices and the choices of others.

Knowing that certain future events are already known based on what you or someone else is planning to do, what has been said, etc, it is possible to be warned of them. Ive been warned. That too has been mentioned in the Bible when Mary and Joseph were told by the Holy Spirit (an angel of God) to leave Bethlehem because God knew Harrod was planning to kill the infant Jesus.

Ill send you a PM in the future.

 

[Aikouka]

Actually, Hawkings' current theory is that there is no time before the big bang. A concept that I jus dont understand as yet. He states that time space are connected such that the math does not predict anything prior to the big bang. It seems that time is alterred in the early moments after the big bang such that time itself may not exist prior. I will admit that this confuses the hell out of me but if time and space are not independent it may be possible. - ouch it give me a headache.

Hmm I think I may get what you're talking about here. In essence, time is a an observed phenomenon that we've linked to certain atomic occurrences (atomic clock, carbon dating, etc). I guess you could say that simply time is change, but without the big bang... what change was there?

 

[sandorski]

I know the laws of physics are broken when miracles are performed. Many are spoken of in the Bible and I see them all the time when some prayers are answered.

Time is perceived differently by God. Today is the first day of the universe and the last day. Its hard to imagine that all possible outcomes of everyone that exists could be known but He knows them. He gave us free will so we can change our path in time and He knows what will happen based on our choices and the choices of others.

Knowing that certain future events are already known based on what you or someone else is planning to do, what has been said, etc, it is possible to be warned of them. Ive been warned. That too has been mentioned in the Bible when Mary and Joseph were told by the Holy Spirit (an angel of God) to leave Bethlehem because God knew Harrod was planning to kill the infant Jesus.

Ill send you a PM in the future.

No you don't.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I know the laws of physics are broken when miracles are performed. Many are spoken of in the Bible and I see them all the time when some prayers are answered.

Time is perceived differently by God. Today is the first day of the universe and the last day. Its hard to imagine that all possible outcomes of everyone that exists could be known but He knows them. He gave us free will so we can change our path in time and He knows what will happen based on our choices and the choices of others.

Knowing that certain future events are already known based on what you or someone else is planning to do, what has been said, etc, it is possible to be warned of them. Ive been warned. That too has been mentioned in the Bible when Mary and Joseph were told by the Holy Spirit (an angel of God) to leave Bethlehem because God knew Harrod was planning to kill the infant Jesus.

Ill send you a PM in the future.

She. God is a woman.

 

[Aikouka]

She. God is a woman.

Mmm hmm

 

[mattpegher]

Hmm I think I may get what you're talking about here. In essence, time is a an observed phenomenon that we've linked to certain atomic occurrences (atomic clock, carbon dating, etc). I guess you could say that simply time is change, but without the big bang... what change was there?

According to the mathematic models the extreme density and gravity of early space-time alters the rate of time such that extrapolating backward time slows therefore at time 0 the rate of change of time is 0. Hawkings states the same is true as one approaches a black hole which is really weard. (I may have that backwards ie rate excellerates to infinity, but I will have to go back and read his theories again to be sure)

 

[busydude]

Read the whole passage, not excerpts. Also read what Islamic, Buddhist say.

Ahem. Lord Krishna in Bhavad Gita disagrees with you.

aham sarvasya prabhavo
mattah sarvam pravartate
iti matva bhajante mam
budha bhava-samanvitah

Translation​

I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who perfectly know this engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts.

Commentary by Srila Prabhupada​

A learned scholar who has studied the Vedas perfectly and has information from authorities like Lord Caitanya and who knows how to apply these teachings can understand that Krishna is the origin of everything in both the material and spiritual worlds, and because he knows this perfectly he becomes firmly fixed in the devotional service of the Supreme Lord. He can never be deviated by any amount of nonsensical commentaries or by fools.

All Vedic literature agrees that Krishna is the source of Brahma, Shiva and all other demigods. In the Atharva Veda (Gopala-tapani Upanishad 1.24) it is said, yo brahmanam vidadhati purvam yo vai vedams ca gapayati sma krishnah: “It was Krishna who in the beginning instructed Brahma in Vedic knowledge and who disseminated Vedic knowledge in the past.” Then again the Narayana Upanishad (1) says, atha purusho ha vai narayano ’kamayata prajah srjeyeti: “Then the Supreme Personality Narayana desired to create living entities.”

The Upanishad continues, narayanad brahma jayate, narayanad prajapatih prajayate, narayanad indro jayate, narayanad astau vasavo jayante, narayanad ekadasa rudra jayante, narayanad dvadasadityah: “From Narayana, Brahma is born, and from Narayana the patriarchs are also born. From Narayana, Indra is born, from Narayana the eight Vasus are born, from Narayana the eleven Rudras are born, from Narayana the twelve Adityas are born.” This Narayana is an expansion of Krishna.

It is said in the same Vedas, brahmanyo devaki-putrah: “The son of Devaki, Krishna, is the Supreme Personality.”

(Narayana Upanishad 4) Then it is said, eko vai narayana asin na brahma na isano napo nagni-samau neme dyav-aprithivi na nakshatrani na suryah: “In the beginning of the creation there was only the Supreme Personality Narayana. There was no Brahma, no Shiva, no water, no fire, no moon, no stars in the sky, no sun.” (Maha Upanishad 1) In the Maha Upanishad it is also said that Lord Shiva was born from the forehead of the Supreme Lord. Thus the Vedas say that it is the Supreme Lord, the creator of Brahma and Shiva, who is to be worshiped.

In the Moksha-dharma Krishna also says,

prajapatim ca rudram capy
aham eva srijami vai
tau hi mam na vijanito
mama maya-vimohitau

​

“The patriarchs, Shiva and others are created by Me, though they do not know that they are created by Me because they are deluded by My illusory energy.” In the Varaha Purana it is also said,

narayanah paro devas
tasmaj jatas caturmukhah
tasmad rudro ’bhavad devah
sa ca sarva-jnatam gatah

​

“Narayana is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and from Him Brahma was born, from whom Shiva was born.”

Lord Krishna is the source of all generations, and He is called the most efficient cause of everything. He says, “Because everything is born of Me, I am the original source of all. Everything is under Me; no one is above Me.” There is no supreme controller other than Krishna.

One who understands Krishna in such a way from a bona fide spiritual master, with references from Vedic literature, engages all his energy in Krishna consciousness and becomes a truly learned man. In comparison to him, all others, who do not know Krishna properly, are but fools. Only a fool would consider Krishna to be an ordinary man. A Krishna conscious person should not be bewildered by fools; he should avoid all unauthorized commentaries and interpretations on Bhagavad-gita and proceed in Krishna consciousness with determination and firmness.

^^ This is the fodder for ISKCON.

She. God is a woman.

Geroge Carlin disagrees.

 

[Phokus]

Evolution has already been observed in a laboratory setting and conservatives who tried to 'debunk' it got their asses thoroughly handed to them (so much so that conservative shitheads started to edit correspondence about the matter rather than being fully transparent about what was said between the researcher and the owner of conservapedia). Take a seat you shit-for-brains republicans:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lenski_affair

 

[soulcougher73]

Wow never seen DrPizza so aggresive 🙂 You go boy.

 

[Nemesis 1]

So you are saying your god is not omnipotent. He has limitations? What are they? Who created these limitation? Does God have a God that created him.

This is were I am at. Because the angels had sex with women that = they were flesh.
The book of Enoch also confirms they were flesh and Enoch is unable to discribe God .
Than there is the semerian tablets that tell a story of Visitors from another world coming here and creating man as a slave to dig their gold.

Which to me none of the above matters . Except the deception of religion and contol of men . I still beleive in an omni present God . Its The religious lies that hold us bach from achieving our goals .

In the Bible . READ what GOD said to whoever he was speaking about the Tower of Bable . Its shocking to me . This god destroyed bable because he was afraid of what man COULD accomplish if they had not interferred. To me My creater would want me to become all I could be . If he is GOD the creater of universe. I will get the part in the bible and post it .

 

[NeoV]

here we go again...

Hey Nemesis - do you think the Bible is an accurate history of events on that took place on this planet - even the Old Testament?

How is that 'elipsis' nightmare working out for you?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Post 368 no I do not . I not sure who the bible gods are. As for accuracy are you kidding . LOL Ya from the jewish point of view . But reality not . Hell AHmose wasn't even hebrew they were another sect altogether . Hell it wasn't even isreal that settled in the promised land according to other records other than hebrew . Liars they be.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Here is what god said about babel . Its disturbs me . As far as I can tell there are 3 differant gods in the old testment. None of which are omni-present . Your mother is the earth your father is the Sun .

Genesis 11
The Tower of Babel
1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.
3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The LORD said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth

 

[Nemesis 1]

How is that 'elipsis' nightmare working out for you?

Must be working Ok . As you did inquire .

 

[AbAbber2k]

Here is what god said about babel . Its disturbs me . As far as I can tell there are 3 differant gods in the old testment. None of which are omni-present . Your mother is the earth your father is the Sun .

Monotheism is a fairly recent invention of the last 2k years or so. The original followers of the biblical god were in fact polytheists, who worshiped Yahweh OVER the other gods. The current idea of there being ONLY one true god didn't take hold for hundreds of years following, and after significant editorial liberties to biblical texts.

 

[videogames101]

This thread again?

 

[Nemesis 1]

Monotheism is a fairly recent invention of the last 2k years or so. The original followers of the biblical god were in fact polytheists, who worshiped Yahweh OVER the other gods. The current idea of there being ONLY one true god didn't take hold for hundreds of years following, and after significant editorial liberties to biblical texts.

Ra Read about tempest stele Ahmose stele. Than read what the supposed hebrews took out of eygpt when they fled . If they indeed fled. Connect the dots and you will see the Jews lied. You will also discover they weren't jews .

 

[JulesMaximus]

This is were I am at. Because the angels had sex with women that = they were flesh.
The book of Enoch also confirms they were flesh and Enoch is unable to discribe God .
Than there is the semerian tablets that tell a story of Visitors from another world coming here and creating man as a slave to dig their gold.

Which to me none of the above matters . Except the deception of religion and contol of men . I still beleive in an omni present God . Its The religious lies that hold us bach from achieving our goals .

In the Bible . READ what GOD said to whoever he was speaking about the Tower of Bable . Its shocking to me . This god destroyed bable because he was afraid of what man COULD accomplish if they had not interferred. To me My creater would want me to become all I could be . If he is GOD the creater of universe. I will get the part in the bible and post it .

They did that in 'Battlefield Earth' too. Johnny Goodboy Tyler 4 lyfe yo!!!