Is the Theory of Evolution on the ropes?

Carfax83

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Nov 1, 2010
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First off, this post isn't an attack on the Theory of Evolution. I'm not a biologist, or any kind of Scientist, but I'm very interested in living things and I want to understand as much about them as possible. My issues with the Theory of Evolution could be due to my own ignorance, which is why I posted this thread to see if anyone could shed some light on it.​

Anyway, notice I said "Theory of Evolution," and not just evolution. For me, there is a big difference between the two, although admittedly, it's probably just semantics.​

The Theory of Evolution encompasses more than the relatively straight forward assertion that living things evolve and adapt to environmental changes and pressure over time.​

Evolution, as in adaptation, is also an undeniable fact. It's been witnessed countless of times in nature, and in laboratories. Adaptation seems to be an inherent quality in all life forms, and no one in their right mind would dispute this.​

The Theory of Evolution though, isn't a fact, but a theory as it's title states. However, it's still putatively regarded as factual by many; even in Scientific circles.​

Now lets look at the most controversial aspects of Theory of Evolution and what they suppose:​

1) That all Life on Earth has a common ancestor​

2) That Life on Earth arose from inorganic matter via natural processes (abiogenesis).​

3) That the incredible diversity of Life now present on Earth came about due to random mutations occurring over billions of years in tandem with natural selection, which preserves beneficial mutations, thus increasing an organisms' chances of survival and propagation.​

As far as I'm aware (and I may be wrong), there is good evidence supporting the first assertion (that life on Earth has a common ancestor), but evidence supporting the second and third assertions is severely lacking.​

I'm sure most people on this forum have heard of Stanley Miller and Harold Urey and their experiments to attempt to show how abiogenesis is possible, and their subsequent failure in that regard. Creating amino acids is apparently easy, but life is so much more than that; as modern researchers are now beginning to understand with the discovery of the mind boggling complexity and vast amounts of information present in life forms.​

And now, mutation. This to me is almost as retarded as abiogenesis I have to say...​

Yes, mutations do occur fairly often, but they are mostly neutral, harmful or even fatal, and are typically repaired by the cell. But even if all mutations were benefical, could they truly explain the rich bio diversity that is now present on Earth?​

No, I don't think so....at least not if you consider the fact that they are stochastic, unintelligent and occur gradually over very long periods of time. Being stochastic, unintelligent and gradual, I just don't see how mutations by themselves could explain the incredible bio diversity that exists on Earth.​

As molecular biology is now discovering, life forms are unbelievably complicated. There are many intricate and seemingly independent parts, which must operate in a harmonious fashion with other intricate and seemingly independent parts to support the life form itself and particular functions.​

I've read Michael Behe's Darwin's Black Box, and in it, he uses the bacterial flagellum as an example of something he calls an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is a system "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning".​

Bacterial flagellum is apparently so exquisitely composed and complex, that it in many ways completely surpasses the most complex machines built by the hand of man.. And it's all the more amazing because it's on the nano scale.​


And yet, Darwinists expect people to believe a random, and unintelligent process could have created something like this, in addition to hundreds of millions of life forms that have existed throughout Time on Earth? :\​

But even more damning than the unbelievable complexity of bacterial flagellum, is the fact that the genes (up to 50 of them) required for their functioning are as Behe stated, irreducibly complex. In other words, removing or tampering with any of the genes that control the production and or function of these proteins, results in a complete and utter loss of mobility.​


Now with how Darwinian evolutionists present mutation as being random and consisting of many gradual changes over extended periods of time, could mutation in tandem with natural selection (and be aware that Natural selection by definition would not select traits or attributes that were not completely functional) produce such intricate and interdependent parts as flagella?​

Thats one hell of a leap of faith I must say.. Unless mutations across large sections of the genome occurred at the same time, which seems impossible given the contraints of the stochastic nature of mutations.​

Also, have evolutionary scientists ever demonstrated hard evidence of how mutation can cause macroevolution; that is when new species evolve from old ones?​

From what I understand, Scientists have performed countless tests in laboratories on creatures that have short life spans and extremely fast proliferation rates, for example bacteria and fruit flies. They subject these creatures to environmental stress, and play havoc with their genomes, all in an effort to induce mutation.​

And of course, mutations occur very rapidly in these simple creatures.......yet to my knowledge, no Scientist has ever succeeded in changing a particular species of fruit fly or bacteria into something other than what it had already been.​

There are plenty of other valid criticisms of the theory of evolution, such as the fossil record and not to mention, the presence of vast quantities of information in living creatures.. Evolutionary biologists have no reasonable explanation for the latter in particular.​

How did information get coded into DNA? Can random mutations actually create new information? Given the nature of information, I cannot even conceive of any natural, unintelligent process being responsible for such a thing, yet evolutionary biologists expect people to blindly believe that such a thing is possible?​

Anyway, these are just my thoughts, on a very complicated issue. I don't know everything, but I'm not an idiot. The more I read about molecular biology and intelligent design, the more my stomach turns at the willful delusion and lack of scientific principles which evolutionary biologists have demonstrated with trying to keep evolution as NATURAL as possible; even when the evidence favoring natural explanations are nonsensical, verging on the point of ridiculousness..​

I'm sure this post will garner a strong reaction by many people.. Just remember to keep it as civil as possible. Remember, nobody knows everything :biggrin:​
 

Alone

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2006
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I don't really feel like reading all that right now. I must however suggest that you explore the word "theory" a little further. It has a slightly different meaning in the scientific community than you seem to think.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,416
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Congratulations, you can now be considered a good person by your peer group for having cast your pearls before swine. If at some point in the future you'd like to join the world of the enlightenment we can probably scrounge up a brochure.
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,779
882
126
Need cliffs otherwise by the time I read all that I would evolve to the point I wouldn't need to read anymore.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,024
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So how do you propose that we now have millions of species on earth that have no fossils millions of years ago but we find fossils of different species from that time period?

Currently the Theory of Evolution does the best in explaining the world today. It has gaps in it that need to be filled but I don't see anything else that comes close to explaining what we see in the world today.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
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I don't really feel like reading all that right now. I must however suggest that you explore the word "theory" a little further. It has a slightly different meaning in the scientific community than you seem to think.

I know what a theory is. But as I said in my post, despite the "theory" in evolution, many in Scientific circles still seem to regard it as factual, and they defend it as such with incredible zeal, and have strong prejudice against any other attempts to explain how Life on Earth became the way it is...

The attacks on intelligent design show exactly that. Most of the rebuttals to Behe's arguements that I read, weren't even real rebuttals. They just side stepped or grossly misrepresented the hard issues rather than tackling them head on.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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So how do you propose that we now have millions of species on earth that have no fossils millions of years ago but we find fossils of different species from that time period?

I don't see your point. Do you mistake me for a creationist? I'm not. It's obvious that the Earth is very old, and so is life.

Currently the Theory of Evolution does the best in explaining the world today. It has gaps in it that need to be filled but I don't see anything else that comes close to explaining what we see in the world today.

Intelligent design does.. The theory of evolution makes no sense at all if the primary catalyst for evolution are mutations that are random and unintelligent.

But when you add intelligence to the mix, then suddenly it doesn't seem so ridiculous....at least not to me.
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
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I know what a theory is. But as I said in my post, despite the "theory" in evolution, many in Scientific circles still seem to regard it as factual, and they defend it as such with incredible zeal, and have strong prejudice against any other attempts to explain how Life on Earth became the way it is...

The attacks on intelligent design show exactly that. Most of the rebuttals to Behe's arguements that I read, weren't even real rebuttals. They just side stepped or grossly misrepresented the hard issues rather than tackling them head on.

Submit a way that life could be created and diversified on earth through testable means.

It'd take millions of years to "test" the theory of evolution, but it can still be tested. Not so much for creationism(ID).
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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*sigh*
Irreducible complexity, huh? That's a claim made by one group, and one group only - creationists.

The eyeball is irreducibly complex according to them. But, in recent years, following a shitload of research, that's been thoroughly debunked. So, now, they've got a different organism.

All it boils down to is
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain THIS!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>

Repeat ad nauseum.
 

Alone

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2006
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I know what a theory is. But as I said in my post, despite the "theory" in evolution, many in Scientific circles still seem to regard it as factual, and they defend it as such with incredible zeal, and have strong prejudice against any other attempts to explain how Life on Earth became the way it is...

Obviously you didn't understand what I was implying. In science, everything is a "theory". It could very well be completely factual, but as science isn't close-minded, everything is labeled as theory to leave it open to possibility and other opinions.
 

DrPizza

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Also, theory more or less = fact in science. The only way around this statement is to make the claim that there's no such thing as facts in our understanding of the world around us. (Although, sometimes the word theory is used when they should really be using the word hypothesis. i.e. string theory.)
 

GTSRguy

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Sep 21, 2009
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Im kind of extreme in my opinion, in that i can't believe anyone calls it a 'theory', as if it isn't blantantly clear to be a fact.
 

DrPizza

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Oh, and read this:
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=SVb7Q1gd3ZgC&oi=fnd&pg=PA72&dq=bacterial+flagellum+evolution&ots=U1H8_520w7&sig=LNwBT282ZYukKErABXcmudn9fqE#v=onepage&q=bacterial%20flagellum%20evolution&f=false

It points out the bullshit of your creationist propaganda using facts, not opinions.
Furthermore, even the CATHOLIC POPE says "Uh, evolution? Well, we might have been dumbasses in the dark ages when we thought the Earth was the center of the solar system (Sorry Galileo), but those scientist guys - they've provided so much fucking evidence that we're convinced that evolution is a fact."

Oh, and here:
http://www.nature.com/nrmicro/journal/v4/n1/abs/nrmicro1493.html
How many hundreds of articles *based on evidence* do you want?
 
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Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
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Submit a way that life could be created and diversified on earth through testable means.

One of the tenets of the Scientific principle is observation. Some of the greatest Scientific theories cannot be tested in any way, ie the Big Bang theory.

The big bang theory was established because astronomers observed that the Universe was expanding.

The theory of evolution was born under similar circumstances as well.

It'd take millions of years to "test" the theory of evolution, but it can still be tested. Not so much for creationism(ID).

It has been tested, and found wanting. Random mutation, the supposed enabler of evolution, has never been shown (or even directly observed) in Nature or the Laboratory to be able to make positive changes to any creature to the extent that the creature would become a new species.

In fact, mutations tend to be neutral or harmful, and cells have active defenses and repair mechanisms against it.

And for the last time, I am NOT A CREATIONIST! And if you think Intelligent Design has anything to do with Creationism, then you are ignorant.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
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*sigh*
Irreducible complexity, huh? That's a claim made by one group, and one group only - creationists.

The eyeball is irreducibly complex according to them. But, in recent years, following a shitload of research, that's been thoroughly debunked. So, now, they've got a different organism. .

Eyeballs aside, if intelligent design has been debunked as you claim, then why has no Evolutionary Biologist been able to explain how bacterial flagellum evolved?

The flagellum requires no less than 50 genes to function properly. Removing, or tampering with any of those genes causes complete system failure.

How the fuck could random, grandual, successive changes and modifications create that?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,416
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And for the last time, I am NOT A CREATIONIST! And if you think Intelligent Design has anything to do with Creationism, then you are ignorant.
Intelligent design requires an intelligent designer, a non-testable hypothesis.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
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Obviously you didn't understand what I was implying. In science, everything is a "theory". It could very well be completely factual, but as science isn't close-minded, everything is labeled as theory to leave it open to possibility and other opinions.

That may be true, but I'm sure you've observed that many Scientists seem to treat the theory of Evolution as factual, and beyond reproach.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
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Crap. I haven't even finished reading your poor ass attempt at posting more creationist bullshit. Now I've gotten to the word "macroevolution." For the 1000th fucking time, there's NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EVOLUTION AND MACROEVOLUTION. MACROEVOLUTION SIMPLY MEANS EVOLUTION ON A LARGE TIME SCALE.

Do you believe in evolution? Yes? Evolution over a great expanse of time - longer than your brain can fathom - is macroevolution.
No? You're a dumbass because there are 1000's of examples, not the least of which is the rise of antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria. See, that happened in 40 years. Can you comprehend 40 MILLION years? Probably not.

Here, try this out... maybe it'll make sense to you.
macroevolution.jpg
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,416
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That may be true, but I'm sure you've observed that many Scientists seem to treat the theory of Evolution as factual, and beyond reproach.
Evolution is both fact and theory. Evolution has been observed and is therefore a fact. There is also a cohesive theory explaining how evolution functions.
 

Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
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One of the tenets of the Scientific principle is observation. Some of the greatest Scientific theories cannot be tested in any way, ie the Big Bang theory.

The big bang theory was established because astronomers observed that the Universe was expanding.

The theory of evolution was born under similar circumstances as well.



It has been tested, and found wanting. Random mutation, the supposed enabler of evolution, has never been shown (or even directly observed) in Nature or the Laboratory to be able to make positive changes to any creature to the extent that the creature would become a new species.

In fact, mutations tend to be neutral or harmful, and cells have active defenses and repair mechanisms against it.

And for the last time, I am NOT A CREATIONIST! And if you think Intelligent Design has anything to do with Creationism, then you are ignorant.

How can you observe a creator? Who created the creator? Did the creator arise from natural evolution? Think harder.

Edit: Creator, designer, what's the difference?
 

busydude

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2010
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The Theory of Evolution though, isn't a fact, but a theory as it's title states.

I don't know if this has been pointed out.. but Theory in science has a different meaning.

According to NAS:

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics). One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.

EDIT: I see Dr. Pizza beat me.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,416
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Something I've always wondered about....

If one starts one of these threads and hangs in there awhile defending the faith, is there a prize? Does the OP print out the thread and show it to the cute babe at Bible study and thereby get laid? Is there an evolutionary advantage to being a Creationist?