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Is the Theory of Evolution on the ropes?

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dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,347
2,710
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in a word, no. the only people who question it are people like the OP. In the first paragraph of his OP, he states that he has no scientific training so has nothing to base his opinion on other than gut feelings. His mind is made up and no amount of evidence will change it.

also, this post reminds me of a banned member who would post threads like this repeatedly. I forgot who that was but the join date of this poster is around the time he got banned.
 
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Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
31,298
12,818
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Where is the I LOL'd icon when you need it? :biggrin:

You are clearly ignorant of what information is if you believe that.. It would be more accurate for you to state that information can be gleaned from everything, rather than what you stated.

The information in DNA can be understood and interpreted, because it has meaning. It can even be copied to another medium other than DNA..

But you're telling me now that rocks and socks contain information? :awe:
wot

you know nothing of genetics. Nothing of biology. Nothing of science. Yet you act like you know something about them with this mysterious reference to "information".

Just what information is this? Specifically, I want to know what you think this information is.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
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wot

you know nothing of genetics. Nothing of biology. Nothing of science. Yet you act like you know something about them with this mysterious reference to "information".

Just what information is this? Specifically, I want to know what you think this information is.

DNA is written in an early form of BASIC. This is why it took so long to make sense of the Code. :hmm:
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
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What I'm saying, is that the mechanism for evolution (ie random mutation) cannot possibly be responsible for the incredible diversity of life that exists on planet Earth right now, and that random mutation has never been demonstrated or observed to show that it could create new species.

No, a single mutation would probably not turn a frog into a chicken, but over eons and many, many mutations, it is possible.

again, you apparently do not have a grasp of the time scales involved here.
 

Iron Woode

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 10, 1999
31,298
12,818
136
DNA is written in an early form of BASIC. This is why it took so long to make sense of the Code. :hmm:
great, now he is going to make a thread claiming Microsoft created the OS universe as is.
 

J-Money

Senior member
Feb 9, 2003
552
0
0
OP, we have supplied plenty of evidence and scientific facts that support evolution.

Please provide evidence and scientific facts (not opinion pieces) that support intelligent design.

My money is he will not even acknowledge the request, just as he did not acknowledge the request of IronWing a few pages back.
 
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dawp

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
11,347
2,710
136
found the banned member who this thread reminded me of:

PhineasJWhoopee last post was 10/27/10
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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Mutations can be detrimental, the organism will die out and the mutation too. A mutation can be neutral, in that case the organism will live and reproduce, preserving the mutation. A mutation can be beneficial, giving the organism a leg up, and lead to change in the entire population through rampant reproduction, in which case the mutation is passed on almost exclusively. Two cases where mutations can continue and one where it dies, what are the odds mutation will continue onto another generation?

What mutations that you're aware of were actually beneficial?

Scientists have studied the effects of mutations on fruit flies in labs over countless generations, by exposing them to radiation and increasing the rate of mutation by several orders of magnitude, yet all they ever got were deformed fruit flies.

With over decades of research in mutation and it's effects, why is it that no new species was ever created?

Surely, if mutation were the primary cause of evolution, then why is it so damn hard to make positive mutations, much less create a new species entirely?
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
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What mutations that you're aware of were actually beneficial?

here's an example of one:
However, certain human populations have a mutation on chromosome 2 which eliminates the shutdown in lactase production, making it possible for members of these populations to continue consumption of fresh milk and other dairy products throughout their lives without difficulty. This appears to be an evolutionarily recent adaptation to dairy consumption, and has occurred independently in both northern Europe and east Africa in populations with a historically pastoral lifestyle.

With over decades of research in mutation and it's effects, why is it that no new species was ever created?

decades.
even if they were able to speed up the process 10000 times (4 orders of magnitude), that's only about 1 million years.
 
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Brigandier

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2008
4,394
2
81
What mutations that you're aware of were actually beneficial?

Scientists have studied the effects of mutations on fruit flies in labs over countless generations, by exposing them to radiation and increasing the rate of mutation by several orders of magnitude, yet all they ever got were deformed fruit flies.

With over decades of research in mutation and it's effects, why is it that no new species was ever created?

Surely, if mutation were the primary cause of evolution, then why is it so damn hard to make positive mutations, much less create a new species entirely?

Seriously, read what I say to understand, not to argue. I'm trying to do the same for you. Positive mutations are rare, maybe once in a thousand years, but on the scale we're talking about, that's more than enough. Humans are relatively unchanged for 20,000 years, but we are getting smarter, taller and change slowly.

In another 100,000 years, will humans be human still, or something else?
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
44
91
*sigh*
Irreducible complexity, huh? That's a claim made by one group, and one group only - creationists.

The eyeball is irreducibly complex according to them. But, in recent years, following a shitload of research, that's been thoroughly debunked. So, now, they've got a different organism.

All it boils down to is
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain THIS!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>
Creationist: "Oh yeah! Well evolution can't explain this either!"
<explanation>

Repeat ad nauseum.

Evolution DOES have a hard time explaining creationists though. Something that dumb should have been weeded out some time ago.
 

J-Money

Senior member
Feb 9, 2003
552
0
0
What mutations that you're aware of were actually beneficial?

Scientists have studied the effects of mutations on fruit flies in labs over countless generations, by exposing them to radiation and increasing the rate of mutation by several orders of magnitude, yet all they ever got were deformed fruit flies.

With over decades of research in mutation and it's effects, why is it that no new species was ever created?

Surely, if mutation were the primary cause of evolution, then why is it so damn hard to make positive mutations, much less create a new species entirely?

I'm no scientist, but unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that mutations that happen naturally over many, many, many, many years aren't the same as blasting something with radiation to see what happens.

It was also explained why species were never created but you already showed you ignored that point entirely because it isn't the answer you want.
 

J-Money

Senior member
Feb 9, 2003
552
0
0
Now that I really think about it, someone asking why we haven't created new species by blasting things with radiation has to be one of the absoultely dumbest things I have ever heard of.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
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Umm.. yes.

DNA qualifies as a code and a language, that has meaning and can be understood.

If you are even hinting that rocks have information in them similar to that of a cell, then you may as well change your screename to dumbdude..
 

Mr. Pedantic

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2010
5,027
0
76
What mutations that you're aware of were actually beneficial?

Scientists have studied the effects of mutations on fruit flies in labs over countless generations, by exposing them to radiation and increasing the rate of mutation by several orders of magnitude, yet all they ever got were deformed fruit flies.

With over decades of research in mutation and it's effects, why is it that no new species was ever created?

Surely, if mutation were the primary cause of evolution, then why is it so damn hard to make positive mutations, much less create a new species entirely?
I notice you're not replying to my posts. Cherry picking much?

In answer to your question:
1) Retention of lactase polymorphism
2) Sickle cell polymorphism
3) Several different polymorphisms conferring increased resistance to HIV infection

And that's only the ones that I, with a superficial education in human biology, know of, off the top of my head.

Also, you forget that with the drosophila experiment there was no selection pressure, and you also forget that radiation bombardment does not necessarily cause the same pattern of mutation as random error.

Also, c.f. European blackcaps.

DNA qualifies as a code and a language, that has meaning and can be understood.

If you are even hinting that rocks have information in them similar to that of a cell, then you may as well change your screename to dumbdude..
It depends on what you mean by information. Depending on that definition, a rock could contain many orders of magnitude more information than a cell.
 

Locut0s

Lifer
Nov 28, 2001
22,205
44
91
What mutations that you're aware of were actually beneficial?

Scientists have studied the effects of mutations on fruit flies in labs over countless generations, by exposing them to radiation and increasing the rate of mutation by several orders of magnitude, yet all they ever got were deformed fruit flies.

With over decades of research in mutation and it's effects, why is it that no new species was ever created?

Surely, if mutation were the primary cause of evolution, then why is it so damn hard to make positive mutations, much less create a new species entirely?

LOOL
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Because there is no evidence that it does. Scientists have performed countless experiments on fruit flies and bacteria, exposing them to all kinds of environmental stress over hundreds or thousands of generations, and yet, even though the organisms mutate, they do not mutate into another species entirely.

Mutations are far more likely to be neutral, harmful or fatal, than beneficial. In fact, cells have defenses and repair mechanisms against mutation!

Why would cells have such defenses against mutations if mutations were necessary for evolution?

Relying on random mutation as the engine that drives evolutionary changes is definitely a weak point in the theory of evolution.

*sigh*
You really are scientifically ignorant, aren't you. First of all, 100 generations isn't much. That you expect a new species within 100 generations is idiotic. 100 generations ago, Jesus had still been dead. If 100 generations is long enough for a new species to evolve, then we should be a new species from what Jesus was.

Secondly, as stated before, and something you still can't wrap your little brain around, speciation takes a LONG time. Not 20 or 30 years in a lab, which really doesn't result in many more generations than in the outside world. i.e. if you were studying humans in a lab, do you really think you could get 40 generations of humans over the course of a few months in a lab? Or, do you think that humans would tend to produce a new generation at roughly the same rate as we do in the non-lab setting?

Further, the reasons for speciation are MANY gradual changes. Fruit flies have been exposed to various environmental stressors. And when that happens, we DO see evolution. Microevolution to you, but there's really no difference (see red/blue text far above in the thread.)

Nonetheless, you seem to be making the claim that humans have never observed speciation - this simply isn't a true claim. (I know that you'll see the website and ignore it; however, please note that it gives a list of the research that was done. You have 3 choices - you can do the tedious task of tracking down the actual research that they're quoting, you can reasonably reason that "okay, well I guess there have been a few cases." Or, you can stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalala there aren't any cases because it would disagree with my world view."
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB910.html



Evolution and the Earth being flat are very common. Both have been "proven" and stated as "fact" .... based on the knowledge of the time. When the Earth being flat was just accepted, the thought of going into space, or analyzing the stars and the moon and understanding what they are was unheard of. Eventually with more knowledge and technology they were able to disprove it.

Perhaps one day, evolution and/or the big bang (they tend to go together, but don't have to) will be fully proved... or disproved. Though it is a much more complex theory so I don't imagine any major breakthroughs any time soon.

I'm hungry for a banana. Guess since that craving is in me, we must come from monkeys. How many people don't like bananas, really? I think it's solid proof right there that we come from monkeys.

Look, you're a reasonably likeable person here. Don't make an idiot of yourself. Evolution and the Big Bang are "related" for one and only one reason - they both contradict a literal interpretation of the Bible. Furthermore, "the Earth being flat" is a red herring or straw man argument or whatever (I get some of those FALSE things backwards sometimes.) The only people who ever believed the Earth was flat were ignorant commoners.

You would apparently believe the fairy tale that Columbus was guessing that the Earth is round, but everyone else thought it was flat. Wrong. While some people might have thought that the earth was flat back then is possible. The argument against Columbus was that the Earth was TOO big to sail around. The scientists back then (and dating back before Jesus) had already measured how big the Earth was - with pretty good accuracy in fact. And, they were right. Columbus was a fool who got lucky that there was a continent in the way. Think about it - if North America was just ocean, he'd have to sail the entire width of the Atlantic, then the entire width of NA, then the entire width of the Pacific. He's going to die.
 

AbAbber2k

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
6,474
1
0
Nice little video talking about irreducible complexity arguments.

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u/2/W96AJ0ChboU

Talks about flagellum around 8:20.

OP: The amount of data supporting it is MONUMENTOUS. Just because the ID crowd keeps coming up with new questions that haven't been answered yet, doesn't mean evolution is suddenly wrong. It simply means it hasn't gotten there yet. There is absolutely nothing to refute evolution aside from some bullshit mythology that doesn't carry water.

You're like those idiots that keep asking for transitional fossils. As soon as we find one, you ask for another one between that one and those before and after it. It's an endless cycle of IDIOCY.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
wot

you know nothing of genetics. Nothing of biology. Nothing of science. Yet you act like you know something about them with this mysterious reference to "information".

Just what information is this? Specifically, I want to know what you think this information is.

While defining what information actually is can be difficult, in this context, it means an ordered sequence of symbols that record and or transmit a message or knowledge.

DNA qualifies as such, because it's a code and a language at once, and possesses meaning that can be understood.
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
No, a single mutation would probably not turn a frog into a chicken, but over eons and many, many mutations, it is possible.

again, you apparently do not have a grasp of the time scales involved here.

So you're basically just like the Creationists you despise, but instead of saying that God makes all things possible, you say Time makes all things possible :D
 

Carfax83

Diamond Member
Nov 1, 2010
6,841
1,536
136
Seriously, read what I say to understand, not to argue. I'm trying to do the same for you. Positive mutations are rare, maybe once in a thousand years, but on the scale we're talking about, that's more than enough. Humans are relatively unchanged for 20,000 years, but we are getting smarter, taller and change slowly.

Has anyone actually crunched the numbers to even see if this is possible? It would be difficult, but not impossible using the natural rate of mutation in a given species.

Anyway, there are other limitations to mutation. Mutation has never been shown to add new information to a genome.. It can only change, or rearrange what is already there.

So with that said, how is it that we have so much bio diversity on Earth, given that mutation itself has such inherent limitations?
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
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So you're basically just like the Creationists you despise, but instead of saying that God makes all things possible, you say Time makes all things possible :D

In simple terms, yes it does.
If you don't understand how, you may need to review probability.

The layman's analogy is that a monkey with a typewriter, given infinite time, will type out Shakespeare.