Is the Mormon religion a cult?

[dugweb]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Does this mean that every modern woman today should pray with her head covered, or shave her head otherwise?

Tell you what... if you want to start another thread on that topic, feel free. As it is, we are in a thread that is debating the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. If you wish to speak to that topic here, I'll be glad to stay with you. If you create another thread, I may or may not... depending on how much time I have.

Joe

lol, the topic is actually "is the mormon religion a cult" but we seemed to have strayed from the origional topic through the 600 some-odd posts

 

[Netopia]

Ok... a LOT of your verses are covered by simple Christology. Jesus the Christ is both 100% human (the child born of Mary) and 100% God (The Word). At any point that Jesus calls the Father "his God"... He is truthful, in that He, as a human and a Jew, worshipped God. When He calls God his "Father"... this is also true in that the person of the Father, through the Holy Spirit, caused the Word to become incarnate as a child in the Virgin Mary. That which I just stated, which is accepted by orthodox Christians everywhere, covers most of the verses you copied and doesn't exclude Jesus from being diety.

I'll answer others individually:

Mark 10: 18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

What's the context? The man wanted something from Jesus and used the word "Good" not as something that was necessarily fitting, but as flattery. Jesus basically called him on it. If you note, Jesus NEVER says to him "I'm not good" what he does is question him as to why HE CALLED HIM GOOD. All throughout scripture we find that when men try to worship servents of God or Angels, they are rebuked for what they are doing. Look at Paul in Athens when they try to venerate him as a God... he quickly denies the point and tells them to stop. On the other hand, look at what happens in John:

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

JN 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

JN 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Hmmmm... no rebuke for calling Jesus Lord and God. In fact, He tells Thomas that he only believes (believes what... the only statement He made was that Jesus was Lord and God) because he saw Him. Why no rebuke from Christ? Why not chastizement for calling Jesus God? Why no correction... unless Thomas was correct?

Saying that Jesus (the man) worshipped God doesn't change or contradict what I believe.... because I believe that. Saying that Jesus (the man) was begotten of the Father I believe too. Saying that Jesus only does what the Father tells him.... we agree.

The problem is the different way we view Jesus. The Bible says He is the light of the world... I've often wondered if God didn't design light in a particular way so that as we progressed in science we would have an example of the nature of Christ. What is light? Is it a pure 100% wave? Yes, it is. Is it a pure 100% particle (photon)? Yes it is. How can that be? How can light be pure energy AND pure matter at the same time? It doesn't make sense... you end up with more than 100%! And yet Christ is pure God, 100% and pure man 100%. You can't seperate them and yet they are completely identifiable as individual parts.

When the Bible says Jesus, you think of the man. I think of the person who is both man and God. The Word who was with God and WAS GOD. The Word became flesh... why do you think He is no longer God?

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Okay, I presented 100 or so (who's counting?) examples of the distinction between God the father and Jesus Christ the Son. I don't think there can be any question that they are separate entities. To counter your claim that they are one and the same, can you present 100 corresponding verses that state "God the Father is Jesus Christ the Son?" I've only seen one so far, and it's indirect.

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: JudistPriest

Originally posted by: Netopia

Does this mean that every modern woman today should pray with her head covered, or shave her head otherwise?

Tell you what... if you want to start another thread on that topic, feel free. As it is, we are in a thread that is debating the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. If you wish to speak to that topic here, I'll be glad to stay with you. If you create another thread, I may or may not... depending on how much time I have.

Joe

lol, the topic is actually "is the mormon religion a cult" but we seemed to have strayed from the origional topic through the 600 some-odd posts

The debate has started with the stated position that Mormons are a cult because we believe in a different Christ that the one written of in the Bible. This is a falsehood. The discussion has gone further to say that Jesus the Son is God the Father. I'm now asking for Biblical proof that this is the case, given substantial Biblical verses to the contrary.

 

[Netopia]

Okay, I presented 100 or so (who's counting?) examples of the distinction between God the father and Jesus Christ the Son.

I believe that the person of God the Father is distinct from the Person of God the Son. We don't argue on that point.

I don't think there can be any question that they are separate entities.

This is where we differ. Not on whether they are distinct persons, but whether God can be more than one person and still remain a single entity.

To counter your claim that they are one and the same, can you present 100 corresponding verses that state "God the Father is Jesus Christ the Son?"

Of course not! I've never said they were! I've said that both Jesus (God the Son) and God the Father are both the same and ONLY God. I've never said the Jesus is the Father or vice versa. Maybe that's why you don't get what I'm saying.

Here's the crux of it. With the theology/christology you present, there are a number of areas of the Bible that just make no sense because they indicate that The Father/Jesus/Holy Spirit are all God. With what I believe, all are distinct persons and yet one being, which balances the different verses of scripture. So... what do you do with the verses that say Jesus is God? You know the Father is God and that the Bible says there is only one God... so what is your belief about the verses that indicate that Jesus is also God?

Joe

 

[petrek]

I never accused any of it of being false. I simply was suggesting you attempt to re-read what you wrote from a non-biased point of view.

maybe you just had trouble putting into words what you believe. I am honestly curious about why traditional Christians believe the trinity? to me, even reading what you wrote above I am tending to lean toward their being 3 seperate beings.

While it's kind of you to give me credit for the analogy, it was a friend of mine who mentioned it to me after he himself heard it from a respectable preacher. I thought the simplistic analogy was fitting, sorry if you do not see it that way.

Joe, I'm assuming that when you say my use of the pronouns, you are referring to me saying that my friend is both a literal father and a literal son. If I may, does the individual who calls him father and the individual who calls him son see him in the same light?

D

 

[Netopia]

If I may, does the individual who calls him father and the individual who calls him son see him in the same light?

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to ask me.

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Okay, I presented 100 or so (who's counting?) examples of the distinction between God the father and Jesus Christ the Son.

I believe that the person of God the Father is distinct from the Person of God the Son. We don't argue on that point.

I don't think there can be any question that they are separate entities.

This is where we differ. Not on whether they are distinct persons, but whether God can be more than one person and still remain a single entity.

To counter your claim that they are one and the same, can you present 100 corresponding verses that state "God the Father is Jesus Christ the Son?"

Of course not! I've never said they were! I've said that both Jesus (God the Son) and God the Father are both the same and ONLY God. I've never said the Jesus is the Father or vice versa. Maybe that's why you don't get what I'm saying.You're right!

Here's the crux of it. With the theology/christology you present, there are a number of areas of the Bible that just make no sense because they indicate that The Father/Jesus/Holy Spirit are all God. With what I believe, all are distinct persons and yet one being, which balances the different verses of scripture. So... what do you do with the verses that say Jesus is God? You know the Father is God and that the Bible says there is only one God... so what is your belief about the verses that indicate that Jesus is also God?

Joe

We're going in circles here. Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? Or are they the same person?

 

[Netopia]

Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? Or are they the same person?

You make that an exclusive question and it shouldn't be. I believe he is the Son of God and God.

I believe that "Jesus The Human" is the Son of God... He is born in the flesh. I believe that "Jesus The Incarnation of The Word Of God" is God and existed eternally with God. "The Word" pre-existed Jesus (the Flesh), but there was never a time when Jesus isn't/wasn't/won't be both the Son of God and also God Himself. Jesus has a duality of nature, both God and Man.

God is a Trinity... the person of The Father, the person of the Son (The Word/Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

I'm open to you questioning me on this if you like... maybe it will go better that way.

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? Or are they the same person?

You make that an exclusive question and it shouldn't be. I believe he is the Son of God and God.

I believe that "Jesus The Human" is the Son of God... He is born in the flesh. I believe that "Jesus The Incarnation of The Word Of God" is God and existed eternally with God. "The Word" pre-existed Jesus (the Flesh), but there was never a time when Jesus isn't/wasn't/won't be both the Son of God and also God Himself. Jesus has a duality of nature, both God and Man.

God is a Trinity... the person of The Father, the person of the Son (The Word/Jesus) and the Holy Spirit.

I'm open to you questioning me on this if you like... maybe it will go better that way.

Joe

So it's a duality and a trinity? What about a quadility? Or is that quadrility? 😀

 

[SirFshAlot]

maybe it's time to actually define what "God" means

in my limited understanding, when talking of the Godhead, or Trinity, it is referring to three distinct beings, all in ONE purpose, all able to be defined as God

so.......Jesus is God, The Father is God, and the Holy Ghost is God

following logic, it doesn't mean I am saying that Jesus is The Father, nor that The Holy Ghost is Jesus


an example;
we can say that Oleg and Yakov are both Russian
Oleg can claim title of calling himself Russian
Yakov can claim title of calling himself Russian
if asked who is Russian, you can say that either Oleg is Russian, or Yakov is Russian, or that both are Russian, and all would be correct
but, it doesn't automatically mean that Oleg is also Yakov

🙂

 

[Netopia]

Any parallels we can draw to illustrate God are going to fall short. How do we describe someone that is infinite and get it right?

Here's a "try".

There is one universe. It is made up of matter, energy and space.

If you remove all energy, it is no longer the universe (as we know it), since matter requires energy (atomic level) to do anything, you would only have a big empty place filled with some stuff but with nothing happening.

If you remove all matter, it is no longer the universe (as we know it), since without matter, energy can accomplish nothing... all effort and no effect. Just a big energized place with nothing being done.

If you remove space, it is no longer the universe (as we know it), since without space all energy and matter would exist in a finite singularity and nothing could move. It would just be an infinesimily small space and nothing could change.

The universe (as we know it), requires that all three exist to make the universe whole. All three are distinct and yet cannot function without the others. All three are unique and yet part of the same thing... completely inseperable (as a universal item) and yet completely seperate.

Now that analogy breaks down because each thing is only part of the universe, whereas Father, Son and Holy Spirit are both 100% God and also seperate persons.

BTW... if you look into it, what I'm describing is the historical view of Christianity going back to the VERY early church fathers.

Joe

 

[Anubis]

yes all religion is a cult

 

[Netopia]

So it's a duality and a trinity? What about a quadility? Or is that quadrility?

Nope... you got it right the first time... Jesus has a dual nature and is part of the trinity. The WORD, which was always part of the trinity did not forever have a dual nature... only since the incarnation of Christ. We could discus God's omnitemporality... but that's a different thread! 😉

BTW.... if you don't believe the duality of Christ's (Jesus') nature and the existance of the Trinity, how do you justify all scripture being true when some that point to the fact that Jesus is God just as much as the Father is God and that there is only one God? I've explained exactly how the Trinitarian belief structure accounts for the scriptures you quoted, but you've not explained how your view of theology/christology explains the points of scripture that I outlined.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

Hmmm.... guess TheEvil1 was trying to get us back on track! 😉

Joe

 

[SirFshAlot]

Netopia,

whereas Father, Son and Holy Spirit are both 100% God and also seperate persons.

Isn't that what I am saying, also?

And I'm not sure that Boone is really differing from your definition, either, except maybe you two can't agree on labels.

BTW... if you look into it, what I'm describing is the historical view of Christianity going back to the VERY early church fathers.

What about what all these other self-ascribed Christians, saying the Godhead being ONE person, not three?

Who speaks for what here?

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Originally posted by: petrek

Hi again Petrek,

Yes I think I get the idea, I just don't agree.... and that's ok.

I believe they are separate, all in the same mission, working to the same goal.

But in separate roles....

The stories in the bible that teach of Christ seem to agree with this.... but I understand your position.

Thx for trying to explain and not just being rude.

I should also tell you, that I will never try and convince anyone of the gospel....

You may have missed the post, but this is the Holy Ghosts role in this mission, or at least one of them.

This is where you can get a confirmation of the truth....

"I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

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3 entities is not 1 entity and never will be
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Agreed.... but you may want to fix that in your post as it would seem you may have got yourself turned around.
(accroding to your position)

Anyway, I really need to spend more time on other things... so I leave this thread yet again.

P.S. At least we recognize Christ as our redeemer.... at least we are not argueing about wheather or not he exists

So lets not give any more power to Satan to catch us up in contention.....this is his goal.

Good luck to you and yours....

~ Mark

No Mark, we do not believe in the same Christ. Your Christ and my Christ are NOT the same. 3 is not 1. As it stands one of us will spend eternity in a lake of fire for trusting in the false Christ. 3 is not 1.

I believe Christ is 1 of 3 parts of the same entity, just as my body is one of three parts of the same person, me. I do not believe my body is a separate entity from me, just as I do not believe Christ is a separate entity from the Spirit or from the Father. My friend is both a literal father, and a literal son among other names, just as God is a Father, a Son, and a Spirit.

Hope that helps to further explain my position

D

Ok.... first of all, I have tried to "Preach the word" to you, and you can see how that is going.
My point was, that the Holy Ghost WILL bear the truth of all things... you should use this whenever possible, that's one of the reasons it was given.

Second.... The father has SENT his son, not come with him, and would be viewed as a god... especially after all the things he did while he was here.

I wonder what you would think if I said : "I have alot of my father in me".... which would be true, but we are not of one mind and purpose, like the godhead is.

Think of it as a father & son (and company) company..... all on the same goal and mission.
The son learns from his father, and tries to please the best he know how.
Is this case, his love for all of the "customers" is so great, and his father agrees, to let him give himself, so that all the "customers" have a chance to join the "company".

The Holy Ghost, (comforter, bearer of truth..ect...ect) would help those confirm that this "company" is true, and is the way & the light.... ect...ect...

The Godhead is all 3 members.... the "adminstation".

But they DO NOT reside in the same body.... or else many of the scripures would make no sence at all.

When they refer to them being one, think of one company.... as they agree on every last detail.

They act as one... and always will.

~ Mark

P.S. I don't think you will burn in a lake of fire for believing in the trinity, but I'm sure you will be "enlightned" 🙂

 

[MadRat]

They are not all one administration of one company. They are all the same being running different aspects of the same program, yet in every sense of the word they are all the same being. Only in the sense they are all one and the same yet different can the Holy Trinity be understood, yet mankind will never understand because man is not divine and cannot know the truth, the truth which is God.

God the Father is the origin of the truth, God the Father is the truth in every sense of the word, and God the Father is the source of all truth to come. God the Father existed before Jesus Christ was born, during his life, and will always exist. God created all Creation to serve the truth, the truth which is God.

The Holy Spirit (it ain't no ghost) is and always was the source of grace, grace being the conduit (so to speak) to see the truth. None of mankind can view the truth without the gift of grace, therefore only through the Holy Spirit can one find the truth, the truth which is God.

Jesus Christ's body is the host of God the Father on the human level, frail in the sense of being vulnerable to death, yet also the New Covenant with all mankind and therefore the only source of Salvation. Think of what Salvation is and then you'll understand why Jesus is God. The host of Jesus Christ is the mouthpiece of God the Father, both the conduit and source of the holy Word of God. The holy Word of God is the truth, the truth which is God.

Without God the Father there would be no Holy Spirit, without the Holy Spirit there would be no way to find Christ, without Jesus there would be no Salvation, without Salvation there would be no eternal life, without eternal life there would be no absolute servitude to the truth, the truth which is God.

Man may never know the truth but it doesn't mean man cannot adore God for his perfection. Only by adoring the God can one truly show love for God. The ones that love God will live forever with the truth, the truth which is God.

 

[SirFshAlot]

I went to a Mormon site and found this;

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead, along with God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.
The Holy Ghost is one in purpose with the Father and the Son, but is a separate being.

and

Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said:
"We are Christians in a very real sense and that is coming to be more and more widely recognized. Once upon a time people everywhere said we are not Christians. They have come to recognize that we are, and that we have a very vital and dynamic religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ.

"We, of course, accept Jesus Christ as our Leader, our King, our Savior. The dominant figure in the history of the world, the only perfect Man who ever walked the earth, the living Son of the living God. He is our Savior and our Redeemer through whose atoning sacrifice has come the opportunity of eternal life."

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints pray and worship in the name of Jesus Christ. He is the center of our faith and the head of our Church. The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ and witnesses of His divinity, His life, and His Atonement."

straight from the source

 

[HardwareAddicted]

Luke Ch3 vs. 21 & 22

21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,

22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

I can tell you.... again..... he's not talking to himself here.

I don't know how plain it can be.....yet you persist.

To each thier own.... but I, having recieved my answer from the Holy Ghost, testify to all who read this, that what I say is true.
Not because I think you should take my word for it, PLEASE DON"T !!
Do the same and get your confirmation.... it was amazing...
I say this because the Holy Ghost testified to me that it is true.... and I will always be greatfull for that answer.


Mattew Ch 12 vs 31 & 32

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

~ Mark

 

[Netopia]

Isn't that what I am saying, also?

Not really. For instance, you used "Russian" instead of "God". Many... many can be totally seperate Russians... but there is only One God. One Single Being that is the Absolute and the author of everything. The one being is comprised from 3 persons who are all equally 100% God.

Think about this... if you have an imaginary box that is 1 foot on all sides then you have a volume of 1 cubic foot. If we use geometry for a base, then we can say that the planes that make up the sides of the box have zero thickness. Which of the three dimensions is responsible for the volume of the box? If we take away any one... height, width or length, the volume instantly becomes ZERO. The volume only exists with three DISTINCT and SEPERATE dimensions, each of which is responsible for 100% of the volume and yet none of which can have any volume without the others. That may have been hard to follow... but I'm going to have to remember it... I just made it up and it's actually a pretty good analogy! 🙂

What about what all these other self-ascribed Christians, saying the Godhead being ONE person, not three?

They are relatively new. The JW's started around the 1870's and the Joseph Smith (Mormonism) started around 1820-1830 depending on what event you want to calculate from.

But they DO NOT reside in the same body....

You are RIGHT! Because God is NOT PHYSICAL except for that time when HE CHOOSE to be incarnate. The Bible teaches that God is spirit, so the introduction of the talk of sharing a body is silly.

When they refer to them being one, think of one company....

No... think of one being!

I can tell you.... again..... he's not talking to himself here.

So who's arguing with you? You say it is two different person's... so do we! You can't very well use a verse we agree with to try to prove a point! The fact that they are three different persons is agreed to, so you can stop bothering with verses that show different personage. Why not instead, find verses which show or deny the singleness of the three persons in one being?

Mattew Ch 12 vs 31 & 32

YUP... blasphemy against the person of the Father or Son will be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit.... what's your point?

Joe

 

[petrek]

"11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And [the land-beast] deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." Revelation 13:11-17

I firmly believe we are in the last days, and that Christ will return to rapture his church any day now. The reason why I quoted the above scripture is to point out one of the reasons I believe that to be the case, namely the mark in the hand or in the forehead. It wasn't until just recently that the technology was in place to actually track people with minute implants in the hand or in the forehead. Even a hundred years ago the idea of having a rice grain sized tracking chip in your arm or in your forehead would have given you the label of crazy man, which is undoubtably why you see in certain Versions the word in being changed to on to fit Westcott and Hort's finite minds on the subject. Where is all this leading to, allow me to continue.

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Notice that the falling away, the apostacy, must precede the return of Christ. That is exactly what we see happening in the world today. Just a few years ago the Pope had various religions worship at his alter, claiming they all worshipped the same god. Professing Christians are now claiming that Catholics are Christian, or that Muslims are Christian, or that (as pointed out above) Mormons are Christian. It is clear by how those religions define God, or the way to Salvation that they do not all worship the same God. Something that is different is not the same. If I were to trust what the world leaders, both religious and otherwise were telling me, I would believe that the majority of people are Saved and will spend eternity in Heaven. God says otherwise:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14

D

 

[petrek]

Ok.... first of all, I have tried to "Preach the word" to you, and you can see how that is going.
My point was, that the Holy Ghost WILL bear the truth of all things... you should use this whenever possible, that's one of the reasons it was given.

Second.... The father has SENT his son, not come with him, and would be viewed as a god... especially after all the things he did while he was here.

To the first point. We are both claiming to have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit as to which is true. You believe the the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities, I believe that all 3 make up One entity. One of us is being decieved by Satan, as we are saying different things yet claiming the same enlightened knowledge.

To the second, I leave you with the Word of God. "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38

I think Madrat and Netopia did a good job of responding to the rest of your post, so I will not repeat what they said.

If he creates an angel and the angel in turn creates something, is he not ultimately the Creator?

What evidence do you have to suggest that the angels are capable of creating something out of nothing?

D

 

[MadRat]

So do the Mormons believe God raised Jesus from the dead?

 

[Netopia]

Hmmmm..... dunno?