Is the Mormon religion a cult?

[petrek]

This whole trinity concept baffles me.

petrek, are you saying that Jesus was kneeling before his own 'entity' when he prayed to His Father?

And how can a father, by definition, be the same literal entity as the son, by definition?

This seems so confusing, and I wouldn't think Jesus wouldn't want to confuse us in this way.

This should be a seperate thread, though, I guess.

I'd like to know more about this.

While there are more knowledgeable individuals on the subject of the Trinity, allow me to further explain it using myself ( who is made in the image of God).

I speak on occasion of myself in the third person as though I were not there. I'll say something like "Dave will not like it if...". I will talk to myself about things that have happened or things that need to get done, occasionally I'll even argue with myself over something that I know needs to get done, but that I don't want to do (say like exercise). Do I kneel down occasionally when I speak to myself, no, because I am not God and therefore to do such would be a sin. For Christ it wasn't a sin because He was God in the flesh.

Hope that helped
D

 

[petrek]

Hi again Petrek,

Yes I think I get the idea, I just don't agree.... and that's ok.

I believe they are separate, all in the same mission, working to the same goal.

But in separate roles....

The stories in the bible that teach of Christ seem to agree with this.... but I understand your position.

Thx for trying to explain and not just being rude.

I should also tell you, that I will never try and convince anyone of the gospel....

You may have missed the post, but this is the Holy Ghosts role in this mission, or at least one of them.

This is where you can get a confirmation of the truth....

"I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

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3 entities is not 1 entity and never will be
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Agreed.... but you may want to fix that in your post as it would seem you may have got yourself turned around.
(accroding to your position)

Anyway, I really need to spend more time on other things... so I leave this thread yet again.

P.S. At least we recognize Christ as our redeemer.... at least we are not argueing about wheather or not he exists

So lets not give any more power to Satan to catch us up in contention.....this is his goal.

Good luck to you and yours....

~ Mark

No Mark, we do not believe in the same Christ. Your Christ and my Christ are NOT the same. 3 is not 1. As it stands one of us will spend eternity in a lake of fire for trusting in the false Christ. 3 is not 1.

I believe Christ is 1 of 3 parts of the same entity, just as my body is one of three parts of the same person, me. I do not believe my body is a separate entity from me, just as I do not believe Christ is a separate entity from the Spirit or from the Father. My friend is both a literal father, and a literal son among other names, just as God is a Father, a Son, and a Spirit.

Hope that helps to further explain my position

D

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

I'm almost done with my project. But screw it. If anyone really wants to read it, PM me and I'll finish it and send it to them. Otherwise, ya'll can just go on with your happy little twisted Mormon lives. 🙂

 

[dugweb]

Originally posted by: petrek

This whole trinity concept baffles me.

petrek, are you saying that Jesus was kneeling before his own 'entity' when he prayed to His Father?

And how can a father, by definition, be the same literal entity as the son, by definition?

This seems so confusing, and I wouldn't think Jesus wouldn't want to confuse us in this way.

This should be a seperate thread, though, I guess.

I'd like to know more about this.

While there are more knowledgeable individuals on the subject of the Trinity, allow me to further explain it using myself ( who is made in the image of God).

I speak on occasion of myself in the third person as though I were not there. I'll say something like "Dave will not like it if...". I will talk to myself about things that have happened or things that need to get done, occasionally I'll even argue with myself over something that I know needs to get done, but that I don't want to do (say like exercise). Do I kneel down occasionally when I speak to myself, no, because I am not God and therefore to do such would be a sin. For Christ it wasn't a sin because He was God in the flesh.

Hope that helped
D

possibly a psychiatrist appointement would be in order

jk

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

bahahaha

 

[dugweb]

Originally posted by: petrek


"I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." 2 Timothy 4:1-4

are you simply suggesting that marks belief in 3 seperate beings are fables? because the scripture you brought up suggests that the father and son were seperate ... :Q

No Mark, we do not believe in the same Christ. Your Christ and my Christ are NOT the same. 3 is not 1. As it stands one of us will spend eternity in a lake of fire for trusting in the false Christ. 3 is not 1.

I believe Christ is 1 of 3 parts of the same entity, just as my body is one of three parts of the same person, me. I do not believe my body is a separate entity from me, just as I do not believe Christ is a separate entity from the Spirit or from the Father. My friend is both a literal father, and a literal son among other names, just as God is a Father, a Son, and a Spirit.

Hope that helps to further explain my position

D

You really need to take a step back and read what you have written... truthfully it sounds, ridiculous.

 

[petrek]

You really need to take a step back and read what you have written... truthfully it sounds, ridiculous.

What part is false?

D

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Does blind leading the blind mean anything to you all?

 

[dugweb]

No Mark, we do not believe in the same Christ. Your Christ and my Christ are NOT the same. 3 is not 1. As it stands one of us will spend eternity in a lake of fire for trusting in the false Christ. 3 is not 1.

I believe Christ is 1 of 3 parts of the same entity, just as my body is one of three parts of the same person, me. I do not believe my body is a separate entity from me, just as I do not believe Christ is a separate entity from the Spirit or from the Father. My friend is both a literal father, and a literal son among other names, just as God is a Father, a Son, and a Spirit.

Hope that helps to further explain my position

D

I never accused any of it of being false. I simply was suggesting you attempt to re-read what you wrote from a non-biased point of view.

maybe you just had trouble putting into words what you believe. I am honestly curious about why traditional Christians believe the trinity? to me, even reading what you wrote above I am tending to lean toward their being 3 seperate beings.

P.S. what are the 3 parts that make up us? body and spirit... ?

just as my body is one of three parts of the same person, me

 

[Netopia]

It's a long post.... if you are interested, here is my shot at The Deity of Christ and part of the support for the existance of the Trinity.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

The fact that God refers to Himself as us, and His image or likeness as being ?our? (not ?my?) , leads me to believe that the concept of a triune god (or at least a biune god) must be fact. If, as some say, he was speaking to the angels, I doubt that he would have said "Let us make." The Bible is quite clear that God alone is the creator of the universe and all that is in it. Therefore, if he cannot be speaking to angels, we must surmise that he is either speaking to other persons of his being, or that he is speaking to other gods. Not being a Polytheist, I cannot believe that there are more than one god . . . excepting those made by the hands of men.

Of course, John 1:1 blatantly says that the Word was both ?with God? and ?was God?.

Added to this is John 1:3, where it says the Word (the Christ preincarnate) created ALL THINGS:

JN 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

This is a double whammy, because not only does it say that HE made all things (and Genesis indicated that God made all things), but it goes on to say that NOTHING exists except those things which He has made? this means that The Word (Christ preincarnate) was not a created being, but was eternal? unless one would suggest that somehow he made Himself before he existed.


The next item I find is a biblical reference that Jesus makes to himself. To start with, we need to look back into the O.T. to see what Jesus is referring to. We find it in Exodus:

Exodus 3:13 (KJV) "And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?"

Exodus 3:14 (KJV) "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Exodus 3:15 (KJV) "And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

Next, let's look at the N.T. references Jesus makes:

John 8:24 (KJV) "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

John 8:28 (KJV) "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

In both passages, the term "I am he" is actually the phrase ego emi (this is close to the Greek . . . I don't have a Greek font, so I cannot accurately reproduce it for you . . . the phonetic would be something like ay-go ay-mee), I am. In most cases, "he" is inserted; so as to make the statement mean that he is the Messiah. It is an arguable point, since the word ?he? does not appear in the original manuscripts. I believe that Jesus was giving a blatant statement about whom he was . . . simply I AM (which, as we just read, Jehovah says is His ?name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations?. Later in the chapter there is a case, pretty much indisputable, where he refers to himself as I AM, and "I am he" will not fit.

John 8:53 (KJV) "Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?"

John 8:54 (KJV) "Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:"

John 8:55 (KJV) "Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying."

John 8:56 (KJV) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

John 8:57 (KJV) "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?"

John 8:58 (KJV) "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

John 8:59 (KJV) "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by."

In John 8:58, Jesus makes bold statement... that before Abraham existed, he existed, and not just that, but to punctuate the truth of the matter, he calls himself by the name of God (I AM or the Hebrew JHVH). The Jews immediately recognized this supposed blasphemy and "took up stones" to kill him for it, as was commanded under the law for anyone who blasphemes. If he is indeed not God, then they were right and they should have killed him, for he would have been not only a liar but a very evil man . . . we should not and cannot have a messiah who sins. It should also be noted that the Greek doesn't say "before Abraham was, I was", but it goes out of the way to use the present tense I AM.

This particular argument is hard to overcome. The literal Greek uses the same form as the above two verses, but the addition of the word "he" would make no sense here. If it were inserted, it would appear as if before Abraham was, Jesus was he. Jesus was he? Who? Abraham? Unlikely. How is it that Jesus could be God eternal and have existed before Abraham then?




John 1:14 (KJV) "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

The first chapter of John pretty much hammers down the question of Christ's Deity. Verse 1 says that the Word (capitalized, a proper name for Christ) was God. Verse 14 says that The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us . . .and that this ?Word made flesh? is the only begotten of the Father. We know well that the only begotten of the Father is Jesus. Therefore we must conclude that Jesus is the Word incarnate and consequently God.

This is further supported by a single verse in Matthew in which the coming of Christ is prophesied and another proper name given:

Matthew 1:23 (KJV) "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

We have all heard Jesus called Emmanuel... even in the hymn Oh Come Oh Come Emmanuel. But I doubt that most people who don't read a lot of the Bible realize that the Bible itself defines the name for us . . . God with us. And that is just who Jesus was, God with us.

How about reverence to God? People General don't even think about the next verse:

John 5: 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

NEVER in the Bible does anyone say that they should be honored as God is honored unless they are blastphemers (like Nebucadnezzer) ... except for Jesus. Why is it that Jesus says that people should show Him the honor the same way that the show God the Father honor and yet it isn't sin? Unless.... Jesus is equally God WITH The Father?




This last set of references is a bit lengthy also, but here goes. In Isaiah, God, describes himself and his power:

Isaiah 44:6 (KJV) "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

There are a number of interesting things here. First, what is coming is quoted of the "Lord the King of Isreal". We find Jesus often called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and also the "King of the Jews", but don?t hear person of God the Father called these things. Second, he is also called the "his [Isreal's] redeemer the Lord of hosts". Interesting. I do believe that we could find scripture calling God the Father the Lord of hosts; but only Jesus is refered to as the redeemer. We can conclude that whoever is speaking is only one being, for he says he is the first and the last, and that there is no other God except for him. Two cannot both be first and last, so part of this verse can't be speaking of Jesus and part speaking of God the Father. Let's look further in God calling himself "first and last" and see if we can make a determination.

We pick up in Revelation:

Revelation 1:7 (KJV) "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Revelation 1:8 (KJV) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Verse 7 says clearly that Jesus (or someone else who has been pierced) is coming back, and that every eye shall see who he is. Verse 8 tends to look as if it is a quotation from the person who was just spoken of. Therefore Jesus would be calling himself "the Almighty." But what if it isn't out of the mouth of Jesus, what if it is God and not Jesus at all? All we know for sure is that whoever this is, they claim to be 1) the Lord, and 2) the Almighty. Let's look further:

Revelation 1:10 (KJV) "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

Revelation 1:11 (KJV) "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

Again, we have someone claiming to be "Alpha and Omega." There can be only one, as two cannot be first and last . . . after all, there is only one number one. But this trumpeted voice isn't immediately identified. We will have to look deeper:

Revelation 22:13 (KJV) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

Revelation 22:14 (KJV) "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Revelation 22:15 (KJV) "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Here, we finally have it. A single quote, spanning several verses. This person is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last . . . and in Verse 16 he identifies himself . . . "I Jesus!" If he is not the Lord, the Almighty, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, then he is a liar and a blasphemer and unworthy of our praise. If however, he tells the truth and is without sin, then he must be both the Man we knew on Earth for a short period, Jesus, Emmanuel, God with Us, and also God almighty. We could theorize then, that Jesus is all of what God is, i.e. there is no Father, but we cannot. As many people have pointed out; can he sit at his own right hand? When he was on Earth, did he pray to himself. Was there no God in heaven while Jesus was on Earth? I think that we all agree that none of these things is feasible. It is, there that we get the doctrine of the Trinity. The Father is inarguably God according to scripture. Jesus is inarguably God according to scripture. The Holy Spirit we've not gone into . . . I believe him also to be God. Three persons, One Supreme Being. The Church says that it is a "Divine Mystery." And so it is.


Joe

 

[Netopia]

P.S. what are the 3 parts that make up us? body and spirit... ?

Body, spirit and soul.

Most people are confused and believe that the spirit and the soul are the same things, but they aren't. Spirit is from God... "soul" is just what we are in our thoughts and being.

For instance, in Genesis it says:

Gen 2:7 7: And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

It is interesting to note that the word there for "Soul" in the Latin Volgate is the word "animas"... it is where we get our word "Animal". In other words, animals are "souls".... beings that has some sort of thought and move about (animation), but unless a being is eternal (having God's spirit), they are not truly alive as God would judge real life.

If we look to the Greek in the New Testement, the word "soul" is from the Greek word sukikos, which we generally use as the root of the word "psyche". Thus the idea of the time was that our "soul" is more like our psyche or what makes up who we are in our own being. Sukikos is just about always used in a negative sense in the New Testement too.... for instance, when Paul says:

1COL 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

It actually says in the Greek that it is sown a sukikos body... a "soul" body.

So, anyway, we are body (the flesh), soul (the heart and mind) and spirit (the image of God).

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Netopia
It's a long post.... if you are interested, here is my shot at The Deity of Christ and part of the support for the existance of the Trinity.

Genesis 1:26 (KJV) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

The fact that God refers to Himself as us, and His image or likeness as being ?our? (not ?my?) , leads me to believe that the concept of a triune god (or at least a biune god) must be fact. If, as some say, he was speaking to the angels, I doubt that he would have said "Let us make." The Bible is quite clear that God alone is the creator of the universe and all that is in it. Therefore, if he cannot be speaking to angels, we must surmise that he is either speaking to other persons of his being, or that he is speaking to other gods. Not being a Polytheist, I cannot believe that there are more than one god . . . excepting those made by the hands of men. Joe

Which sounds more reasonable? That God, when speaking of "us", is referring to those surrounding him as he directed the creation of the earth? Or that when speaking of "us" he is talking to a trinity within Himself? How can you make the jump to assume that he is not speaking of the angels? If he creates an angel and the angel in turn creates something, is he not ultimately the Creator?

If I bake a cake, I can say that I made it. Or I can say, through my God-given abilities, I was able to make a cake. (Admittedly a very poor simile)

 

[SirFshAlot]

Netopia,

you cited;

John 8:28 (KJV) "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

do you believe Jesus is referring to Himself as "my Father"?
that seems really weird and confusing

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: petrek

This whole trinity concept baffles me.

petrek, are you saying that Jesus was kneeling before his own 'entity' when he prayed to His Father?

And how can a father, by definition, be the same literal entity as the son, by definition?

This seems so confusing, and I wouldn't think Jesus wouldn't want to confuse us in this way.

This should be a seperate thread, though, I guess.

I'd like to know more about this.

While there are more knowledgeable individuals on the subject of the Trinity, allow me to further explain it using myself ( who is made in the image of God).

I speak on occasion of myself in the third person as though I were not there. I'll say something like "Dave will not like it if...". I will talk to myself about things that have happened or things that need to get done, occasionally I'll even argue with myself over something that I know needs to get done, but that I don't want to do (say like exercise). Do I kneel down occasionally when I speak to myself, no, because I am not God and therefore to do such would be a sin. For Christ it wasn't a sin because He was God in the flesh.

Hope that helped
D

Yes, Bob Dole does the same thing. However, Bob Dole doesn't talk in the third person about the his other multiple personalities... That would just be about the time for the men in the white suits to take him off to a nice padded room.

 

[Netopia]

That God, when speaking of "us", is referring to those surrounding him as he directed the creation of the earth? Or that when speaking of "us" he is talking to a trinity within Himself?

But you are only looking at half of the verse... let us create... our image. Please not it does not say our images... the original language is singular. A singularity possessed by a multiple. The Bible is clear that we were created in the image of God... not in the image of angels.

If I bake a cake, I can say that I made it. Or I can say, through my God-given abilities, I was able to make a cake.

Sure, you could say that. But you couldn't say that now nothing exists anywhere which you did not bring into existance, which BTW, would mean that you, yourself were not a created being or that you had somehow created yourself.

do you believe Jesus is referring to Himself as "my Father"?

No... I believe that he is referring to the Person of the Father. Three in persons, one in being. Does it make sense from our perspective? No. Does that mean it is impossible for God to have a nature that is beyond our ablility to comprehend and understand? Is God's nature limitted by our ability to make heads or tails of it? God existed forever and never had a beginning (or the universe, if you are Mormon)... does something existing that never started in the first place make any sense? Nope... but we accept it.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

petrek, I don't think that you referring to yourself acts as a good example of the Trinity. You are one person calling yourself by different pronouns. God is Three distinct and yet inseperable persons. Describing it as you do leads to a belief in modality... i.e., there is only one God and only one person in God and He just shows Himself different at different times. That teaching does lead one to ask who Jesus was praying to.

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Netopia

That God, when speaking of "us", is referring to those surrounding him as he directed the creation of the earth? Or that when speaking of "us" he is talking to a trinity within Himself?

But you are only looking at half of the verse... let us create... our image. Please not it does not say our images... the original language is singular. A singularity possessed by a multiple. The Bible is clear that we were created in the image of God... not in the image of angels.

If I bake a cake, I can say that I made it. Or I can say, through my God-given abilities, I was able to make a cake.

Sure, you could say that. But you couldn't say that now nothing exists anywhere which you did not bring into existance, which BTW, would mean that you, yourself were not a created being or that you had somehow created yourself.

do you believe Jesus is referring to Himself as "my Father"?

No... I believe that he is referring to the Person of the Father. Three in persons, one in being. Does it make sense from our perspective? No. Does that mean it is impossible for God to have a nature that is beyond our ablility to comprehend and understand? Is God's nature limitted by our ability to make heads or tails of it? God existed forever and never had a beginning (or the universe, if you are Mormon)... does something existing that never started in the first place make any sense? Nope... but we accept it.

Joe

So, it's beyond your ability to comprehend and understand, and we just have to accept it. But Petrek is confident that I will "spend eternity in a lake of fire" because you're positive that I believe in a different God than you? I believe in the God of the Bible. I believe in his Son as he sent him down to this earth, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. I pray to God in the name of his Son who he sent on this earth to die for our sins. I don't understand how you can find exception with this. I asked Petrek (Sorry, it was Technonut, my mistake. Oops) before to define the difference in your own words, but you've continued to bludgeon this thread with paragraphs of verse out of the Bible. I can do that, too.

In the beginning

(truncated to save space)

Amen.

There, I've proved myself as well. Don't we both feel better now?

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Netopia]

BooneRebel,

Hmmmm.... so I believe that the Bible is the only authority, and yet I cannot (by your rules) use it to prove a point? You say that I "bludgeon this thread with paragraphs of verse out of the Bible", but have you really bothered to read what was written? I didn't do some cut and paste job from some other author or site.... I went through and gave the Biblical reference and support for what I believe... and yet you find fault with that and say that I'm doing wrong. Interesting stance!

So, it's beyond your ability to comprehend and understand, and we just have to accept it.

Do you believe the universe to be eternal? Please do not accept it unless you can total comprehend it and understand it... and then explain it precisely to the rest of us!

...because you're positive that I believe in a different God than you?

I don't know that you believe in "another God" so much as I believe that you have a wrong view of God. Let me ask a simple question. When Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John (see my post above) and Biblically God has said that that is HIS own personal name, what do YOU think Jesus is saying?

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

I think there are far more quotes in the Bible stating that Jesus is the son of God than of Jesus stating that he is God. In John 8:58 I believe Jesus is saying that he is eternal and existed prior to the embodiment of Abraham. To say that his use (or translation) of the words "I am" is synonymous with every other use of the words "I am", I feel, is an error in judgement.

 

[BooneRebel]

Let me ask you a simple question:

1 Cor. 11: 5
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Cor. 11: 6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a ashame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Does this mean that every modern woman today should pray with her head covered, or shave her head otherwise?

 

[Netopia]

I think there are far more quotes in the Bible stating that Jesus is the son of God than of Jesus stating that he is God.

So there are... and I believe BOTH, why do you ignore one?

In John 8:58 I believe Jesus is saying that he is eternal and existed prior to the embodiment of Abraham.

So then, you believe that it should be translated "I was" and not "I am". The only problem with that is that the Greek words (ego emi) are not "I was" and so it would be a mis-translation. Take further into acccount the fact that Jesus PURPOSELY used the term "I AM" and that as a devout Jew Himself, He KNEW what He was calling Himself! Also, if he really was only saying "I was" (before Abraham), what was the offense that He committed that the Jews were then going to stone Him to death for?

It's nice that you think it should mean "I was"... except that it doesn't fit with the rest of the passage.

Joe

 

[Netopia]

Does this mean that every modern woman today should pray with her head covered, or shave her head otherwise?

Tell you what... if you want to start another thread on that topic, feel free. As it is, we are in a thread that is debating the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. If you wish to speak to that topic here, I'll be glad to stay with you. If you create another thread, I may or may not... depending on how much time I have.

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Netopia

Does this mean that every modern woman today should pray with her head covered, or shave her head otherwise?

Tell you what... if you want to start another thread on that topic, feel free. As it is, we are in a thread that is debating the differences between Mormonism and Christianity. If you wish to speak to that topic here, I'll be glad to stay with you. If you create another thread, I may or may not... depending on how much time I have.

Joe

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that you can take a single verse or two out of context and read anything into it that you want. If you want to get the true meaning of the verse, go back and read the entire chapter. Better yet, read the entire book.

You said that you believe Jesus is the son of God and that he is also God, and that I should just accept it.

I believe that Jesus is the son of God, a separate being from his Father, and that you should just accept it.

 

[Netopia]

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that you can take a single verse or two out of context and read anything into it that you want.

You are very correct! I agree with you. That is why I provided you with verses from Genesis all the way to Revelation that support what I'm saying. That's also why I suggested that YOU read John 8:58 within the context it was written in so that you would understand that Jesus was calling Himself Yahweh.

I believe that Jesus is the son of God, a separate being from his Father, and that you should just accept it.

The only problem there is that you provide no evidense from Scripture to support your stance; I do. Why do you suppose that is?

I believe that Jesus and the Father are serperate persons and that belief is supported by all the same scripture that you would use to support it. I also believe that Jesus and the Father are both the one and only God, and provide scripture to suppor that also. Can you provide substantial evidense (at least two or three places) where the Bible says that Jesus and the Father are NOT both God?

Joe

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: NetopiaCan you provide substantial evidense (at least two or three places) where the Bible says that Jesus and the Father are NOT both God?

Joe

Matt. 8: 29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Matt. 11: 25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Matt. 17: 9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Matt. 17: 22
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:
Matt. 27: 46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 1: 1
THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 5: 7
And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Mark 10: 18
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mark 15: 34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Luke 10: 21
In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Luke 18: 19
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luke 23: 34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
John 7: 16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 8: 28
Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
John 11: 41
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
John 12: 44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 20: 17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Acts 2: 36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 3: 26
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 5: 30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and ahanged on a tree.
Acts 7: 55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the bglory of God, and Jesus estanding on the right hand of God,
Acts 13: 23
Of this man?s aseed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Acts 13: 33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Rom. 10: 9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom. 15: 6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1: 3
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1: 9
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal. 1: 1
PAUL, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )
Gal. 1: 3
Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph. 1: 2
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col. 1: 2
To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col. 1: 3
We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
2 Thes. 1: 2
Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Tim. 4: 1
I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Philem. 1: 3
Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Pet. 1: 3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant amercy hath bbegotten us again unto a clively? dhope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
2 Pet. 1: 2
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
2 Jn. 1: 3
Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Rev. 1: 1
THE Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

That should be sufficient for now. I'd like to call attention to the two verses I've listed in bold above. Direct witness from two of Christ's apostles, Mark and Luke, quoting Jesus himself as he makes the statement that he is not God.


Boone

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