Is it possible to defeat the terrorists?

[rubix]

We can't nuke them all since they are spread out and not a "solid" enemy like Japan was. Many people not involved in this would die and other countries would hate us. Maybe even plan to attack us?

Peaceful talks with them seems like it would (has?) fail because well, they are insane (and they think the same of us). Didn't Al Queda once say they won't stop until every person in the US becomes a Muslim? And talking with them would also set a precedent that terrorism is a good way to push us around and get their way. Any successful long-term peace talks seems like it would ultimately always fail. Israel is another factor thats makes it even more impossible.

Ignoring the whole situation and staying out of Middle East entirely won't solve anything because it will let things deteriorate as they have in the past. It just lets them plan and stock-pile weapons, build power unhindered, etc. Things that occur over there affect our country and our economy here and also the way we can deal with middle eastern countries or their allies. Other countries secretly live in fear of some powers there and that seems to have a subliminal effect on how they've communicated/dealed with us in the past (especially Saudi Arabia, but all of middle east really). Saddam/Iraq was always considered a wild card in many situations for instance. Iran/Syria too perhaps.

Taking the current "moderate-resistence" route of using fairly traditional weapons and using soldiers to locate/pick-off terrorists does not seem to be working and making us look really bad to boot. We can't go all out with our non-nuke bombs either and essentially have to resort to fighting with guns, which is what they have too. Yet they have an advantage in the fact that they not only have no fear of death, but welcome it for religious reasons. Whereas we get all upset at every single death and fear it and think it's somehow avoidable (a fantasy). Furthermore, it would seem tons of their weapons/money/support are coming in from other countries secretly, or have came in from them in the past. We are a super-power and they are an unofficial rag-tag army and yet the odds are essentially evened out in the end as we have many self-imposed restraints on what we are willing to do, as well as some based on the criticism of other countries.

So we can't nuke them, we can't talk with them, we can't ignore them, and we can't fight them tradionally... how do we defeat them? Is it possible? I think no. In 50 years this could still be going on, with up and down times between based on our different presidents trying to arbitrarily appease the public.

The only solution that would show actual results (nukes) is the one that would make the entire world hate us even more and make us the "evil villians" of the world and in history.

 

[glenn1]

As much as it's simple to say we're fighting people (terrorists), we're actually fighting an ideology (Islamicism, or whatever you want to call it). How do you fight an idea, a belief system? It's possible, we've done it before (witness the situation with Japan and its Emperor during WWII). The question is how to we demonstrate to the people who believe in the idea that it's wrong?

I don't claim to be smart enough to answer that question, but that's the nut we have to crack.

 

[conjur]

It needs to be fought from the foundations of it.

U.S. foreign policy is too focused on bombs and bullets instead of working with the various Arab governments to reform their own socio-economic programs in order to improve education and reduce poverty and to also reform basic human rights and religious freedoms.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: glenn1
As much as it's simple to say we're fighting people (terrorists), we're actually fighting an ideology (Islamicism, or whatever you want to call it). How do you fight an idea, a belief system? It's possible, we've done it before (witness the situation with Japan and its Emperor during WWII). The question is how to we demonstrate to the people who believe in the idea that it's wrong?

I don't claim to be smart enough to answer that question, but that's the nut we have to crack.

If they claim they are willing to die for what they believe in, you test that.. that is what we did with Japan..

These people understand a bullet in the back of the head, that is when they "get it".

 

[glenn1]

It needs to be fought from the foundations of it.

U.S. foreign policy is too focused on bombs and bullets instead of working with the various Arab governments to reform their own socio-economic programs in order to improve education and reduce poverty and to also reform basic human rights and religious freedoms.

You're looking for the simple solution where there aren't any. While focusing on socio-economic programs is a noble goal in and of itself, poverty isn't at the root of Islamicism. Otherwise, why would all the prime movers in the Islamicist movement be the middle to upper classes and educated. Of course there will be rubes from the poor who get stirred up about the typical problems cited by the Islamicists (e.g. Israel, etc), but these are merely the expendable pawns. The people who are the key players in Al Qaeda and who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were college-educated and not poor. Their background isn't what caused them to do what they did, it's the poison in their souls.

 

[Draknor]

There are 2 things to consider.

First are the true terrorists. Terrorists come in all different flavors - some Arab, some European, some even American (anybody remember McVeigh? Or the Unabomber?). These people you can't beat - they are bound & determined to cause harm, and they will, and nothing short of the total absence of liberty for everyone will stop them. That's the price of freedom - some people will abuse it, and a very few will take that to lethal ends. The good news is these people are few.

The much greater concern, and the one we can do something about, involves how America is perceived by the Islamic community (and really the entire international community). If the people of the Middle East led more comfortable lives and didn't live in such fearful & violent circumstances, there would be far fewer of them willing to join the ranks of the true terrorists. I think that is where America could do the most good - quit with the high & mighty act, build a true international community, and start encouraging democracy to grow in the Middle East, and then over a couple of generations I think we'll see some positive results, if we can keep the roots from rotting.

But the simple fact is that there is no quick & easy solution - "installing" democracy doesn't work, and our goverment has a nice long history of helping & installing dictators in goverments which doesn't help democracy either. It took the United States 12 years and a revolution to develop the democratic foundations we have today - its foolish to think we can setup a similar democracy in Iraq (or anywhere else) in just a year or two.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: glenn1

It needs to be fought from the foundations of it.

U.S. foreign policy is too focused on bombs and bullets instead of working with the various Arab governments to reform their own socio-economic programs in order to improve education and reduce poverty and to also reform basic human rights and religious freedoms.

You're looking for the simple solution where there aren't any. While focusing on socio-economic programs is a noble goal in and of itself, poverty isn't at the root of Islamicism. Otherwise, why would all the prime movers in the Islamicist movement be the middle to upper classes and educated. Of course there will be rubes from the poor who get stirred up about the typical problems cited by the Islamicists (e.g. Israel, etc), but these are merely the expendable pawns. The people who are the key players in Al Qaeda and who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were college-educated and not poor. Their background isn't what caused them to do what they did, it's the poison in their souls.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

Of course people like bin Laden and his aides aren't in poverty. It's who they recruit and the propaganda they spread that preys upon those who do live in poverty and that draws those people to bin Laden.

Think about it, if someone living in Indonesia, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. was living a successful life, had an edcation, had a job, a family, etc. they'd not have much reason to throw that all away for the ideology of a fanatic.

 

[glenn1]

Of course people like bin Laden and his aides aren't in poverty. It's who they recruit and the propaganda they spread that preys upon those who do live in poverty and that draws those people to bin Laden.

And how exactly is a poor person living in an inpoverished third world country going to hurt us? By definition, their poverty is going to keep them where they are and unable to act upon his desires, except locally. I don't really care that some poor schlub in Sand-istan is mad at the U.S., or becomes a suicide bomber in his home country. He's not going to have the means (or likely the motive) to commandeer a 747 and fly it into a Manhattan building like the core group of middle class, educated Islamicists do and have done.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Of course people like bin Laden and his aides aren't in poverty. It's who they recruit and the propaganda they spread that preys upon those who do live in poverty and that draws those people to bin Laden.

And how exactly is a poor person living in an inpoverished third world country going to hurt us? By definition, their poverty is going to keep them where they are and unable to act upon his desires, except locally. I don't really care that some poor schlub in Sand-istan is mad at the U.S., or becomes a suicide bomber in his home country. He's not going to have the means (or likely the motive) to commandeer a 747 and fly it into a Manhattan building like the core group of middle class, educated Islamicists do and have done.

Oy...why do I feel like I'm beating my head into a wall?

You see, someone in poverty gets recruited to join Al Qaeda. They go with the person who recruited them and are provided food, shelter, training, etc. Al Qaeda has its own funding and uses that to provide for those it recruits as well as obtaining materials and resources to launch its attacks.

 

[veri107]

Originally posted by: glenn1
As much as it's simple to say we're fighting people (terrorists), we're actually fighting an ideology (Islamicism, or whatever you want to call it). How do you fight an idea, a belief system? It's possible, we've done it before (witness the situation with Japan and its Emperor during WWII). The question is how to we demonstrate to the people who believe in the idea that it's wrong?

I don't claim to be smart enough to answer that question, but that's the nut we have to crack.

Much less the Hitler era....

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: conjur
It needs to be fought from the foundations of it.

U.S. foreign policy is too focused on bombs and bullets instead of working with the various Arab governments to reform their own socio-economic programs in order to improve education and reduce poverty and to also reform basic human rights and religious freedoms.

news flash for the overly idealistic....

most arab governments do not want "reforms" they do not want improved education, they do not want to reduce poverty, and they for sure do not want "religious freedom"...

they are dictatorships and oligarchies (and theocracies) who want power and wealth for themselves and thier elitest suporters.

then we have the muslim "extremists" (who are much more "mainstream" than many think) who want one religious view to rule everything and the more "infidels" kille din the process the better.

they are just as disinterested in the things you mentioned too...the reason is they do not think like you do, or want to. they want you to think as they do or die. period.

 

[glenn1]

Oy...why do I feel like I'm beating my head into a wall?

You see, someone in poverty gets recruited to join Al Qaeda. They go with the person who recruited them and are provided food, shelter, training, etc. Al Qaeda has its own funding and uses that to provide for those it recruits as well as obtaining materials and resources to launch its attacks.

Okay, fine, let's play your game. Let's say everything goes exactly as you imagine it, we spend all our time and money making the Middle East a better place, and all the poor people rejoice and no poor person ever joins Al Qaeda again.

Considering as we've already stated, the core cadre of Al Qaeda from the well-educated middle class are still out there and still hate us, have we solved the problem? And in your own words, the members of this core group are the ones with the resources to launch attacks. So they have a few less expendable foot soldiers, who cares? It only took 19 to pull off 9/11.

So now that we've expended all our resources on your "beautify the Middle East and give a job to an Arab poor person" program, what will we do since that didn't solve the underlying problem?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: conjur
It needs to be fought from the foundations of it.

U.S. foreign policy is too focused on bombs and bullets instead of working with the various Arab governments to reform their own socio-economic programs in order to improve education and reduce poverty and to also reform basic human rights and religious freedoms.

news flash for the overly idealistic....

most arab governments do not want "reforms" they do not want improved education, they do not want to reduce poverty, and they for sure do not want "religious freedom"...

they are dictatorships and oligarchies (and theocracies) who want power and wealth for themselves and thier elitest suporters.

then we have the muslim "extremists" (who are much more "mainstream" than many think) who want one religious view to rule everything and the more "infidels" kille din the process the better.

they are just as disinterested in the things you mentioned too...the reason is they do not think like you do, or want to. they want you to think as they do or die. period.

Exactly my point.

Which is why it's time to start forcing their hand at reforming from within.

Imagine how bad things would be if we finally got off our asses and greatly reduced our dependence upon oil and left many of those countries w/o a solid stream of income?

You should read:
Cursed By Oil - NY Times Op/Ed - By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

 

[katka]

RESPECT them. Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them, stop taking sides with Israel, stop trying to rule the world and rule the US. Then if they find themselves in difficulty they will place the blame on the appropriate person I think. Also, they are not materialistic, they obviously know money gets things but have a different pespective than the capitalistic mentality. Their faith and rights are non-negotioable. They are obviously willing to to die for them. Also, it depends on WHY they are terrorising. The muslims want to be left alone. The Palastines want their land back, etc.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: katka
RESPECT them. Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them, stop taking sides with Israel, stop trying to rule the world and rule the US. Then if they find themselves in difficulty they will place the blame on the appropriate person I think. Also, they are not materialistic, they obviously know money gets things but have a different pespective than the capitalistic mentality. Their faith and rights are non-negotioable. They are obviously willing to to die for them. Also, it depends on WHY they are terrorising. The muslims want to be left alone. The Palastines want their land back, etc.

Please post more. A lot of people are very shortsighted - OMG look at those savages!!! Let's fvck them up good... nukes, full out military states etc etc. You have to realize these people have some motiviation, some reason for doing what they do. Think about why they are doing it, and then see if you can prevent, rather than retaliate. The US goes into the Mid East, people want them out, people REALLY want them out, people become terrorists, people do things to the US, US goes further into Mid East, terrorists retaliate, US does more, terrorists do more...

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: katka
RESPECT them. Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them, stop taking sides with Israel, stop trying to rule the world and rule the US. Then if they find themselves in difficulty they will place the blame on the appropriate person I think. Also, they are not materialistic, they obviously know money gets things but have a different pespective than the capitalistic mentality. Their faith and rights are non-negotioable. They are obviously willing to to die for them. Also, it depends on WHY they are terrorising. The muslims want to be left alone. The Palastines want their land back, etc.

this is one of the more naive posts i ahve seen "Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them" ROFL!

that is not the problem, the problem is they want to force islam on YOU and every other "infidel" that is why islam has been spread mainly by violence since it began. read a history book.

here are some objective facts for you.

the "palestines" land" is actually jewish land, at least that is what the archealogical evidence shows anyway...

there has never been a nation called "palestine"..ever.

there is no distinct palestinian culture differentiating them from other arabs such as jordanians and egyptians

there is no palestinian language, or arabic dialect.

arafat is an egyptian.

the region of palestine got it's name in 135 ad when the roman emperor hadrian expelled the jews and renamed the roman province of "judea" to "palestina"(the jews were upset because the romans were occupying thier land...and the romans got tired of revolts)


as far as the prison thing goes what these soldiers did was wrong, and it is the responsibility lies with themselves. but you have to remember the many of the iraqi's being "humiliated" were the ones doing the torturing and humiliating of others about a year ago.

i know some hindi who say it was their karma catching up with them...maybe they have a point.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: katka
RESPECT them. Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them, stop taking sides with Israel, stop trying to rule the world and rule the US. Then if they find themselves in difficulty they will place the blame on the appropriate person I think. Also, they are not materialistic, they obviously know money gets things but have a different pespective than the capitalistic mentality. Their faith and rights are non-negotioable. They are obviously willing to to die for them. Also, it depends on WHY they are terrorising. The muslims want to be left alone. The Palastines want their land back, etc.

Please post more. A lot of people are very shortsighted - OMG look at those savages!!! Let's fvck them up good... nukes, full out military states etc etc. You have to realize these people have some motiviation, some reason for doing what they do. Think about why they are doing it, and then see if you can prevent, rather than retaliate. The US goes into the Mid East, people want them out, people REALLY want them out, people become terrorists, people do things to the US, US goes further into Mid East, terrorists retaliate, US does more, terrorists do more...

so the majority of iragi's who DO want us there opinions do not count for some reason? we should listen to the violent minority?

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: conjur
Exactly my point.

Which is why it's time to start forcing their hand at reforming from within.

Imagine how bad things would be if we finally got off our asses and greatly reduced our dependence upon oil and left many of those countries w/o a solid stream of income?

You should read:
Cursed By Oil - NY Times Op/Ed - By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

actually you missed the point.

reducing our dependence on oil will not change anything at all. oil did not matter in the previous 1400 years of islamic militancy, changing out dependence on oil in the next 10-20 years even will not make much of a diference, besides the dictators have diversified, oil is only one way they make money...not the only way. it would hurt the average cititzen more than the power structure, 10 years of the crooked and inept UN oil for food program has demonstrated that very effectively.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: katka
RESPECT them. Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them, stop taking sides with Israel, stop trying to rule the world and rule the US. Then if they find themselves in difficulty they will place the blame on the appropriate person I think. Also, they are not materialistic, they obviously know money gets things but have a different pespective than the capitalistic mentality. Their faith and rights are non-negotioable. They are obviously willing to to die for them. Also, it depends on WHY they are terrorising. The muslims want to be left alone. The Palastines want their land back, etc.

this is one of the more naive posts i ahve seen "Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them" ROFL!

that is not the problem, the problem is they want to force islam on YOU and every other "infidel" that is why islam has been spread mainly by violence since it began. read a history book.

here are some objective facts for you.

the "palestines" land" is actually jewish land, at least that is what the archealogical evidence shows anyway...

there has never been a nation called "palestine"..ever.

there is no distinct palestinian culture differentiating them from other arabs such as jordanians and egyptians

there is no palestinian language, or arabic dialect.

arafat is an egyptian.

the region of palestine got it's name in 135 ad when the roman emperor hadrian expelled the jews and renamed the roman province of "judea" to "palestina"(the jews were upset because the romans were occupying thier land...and the romans got tired of revolts)


as far as the prison thing goes what these soldiers did was wrong, and it is the responsibility lies with themselves. but you have to remember the many of the iraqi's being "humiliated" were the ones doing the torturing and humiliating of others about a year ago.

i know some hindi who say it was their karma catching up with them...maybe they have a point.

Just like American land is really native land? Should China support the natives should they decide to take power in the US? Just like there is no distinct American culture differentiating them from other western nations (neglecting very very minor differences). Just like there is no American language? Just like how the region of America got its name within the past few hundred years?

Who the land belongs to is something that is very hard to say. Sure, it may have belonged to Jews thousands of years ago; so what? Up until the 1900s Israel as a country didn't exist. Jews did not live in the Mid East. The League of Nations basically moved in some Jews and said: here, this is your land now. They had no regard to the people whose land it was. Maybe Palestinians didn't have a formal country in place, but they did live there.

Point is it's a huge freaking mess.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: silverpig

Originally posted by: katka
RESPECT them. Stop trying to force democracy and christianity on them, stop taking sides with Israel, stop trying to rule the world and rule the US. Then if they find themselves in difficulty they will place the blame on the appropriate person I think. Also, they are not materialistic, they obviously know money gets things but have a different pespective than the capitalistic mentality. Their faith and rights are non-negotioable. They are obviously willing to to die for them. Also, it depends on WHY they are terrorising. The muslims want to be left alone. The Palastines want their land back, etc.

Please post more. A lot of people are very shortsighted - OMG look at those savages!!! Let's fvck them up good... nukes, full out military states etc etc. You have to realize these people have some motiviation, some reason for doing what they do. Think about why they are doing it, and then see if you can prevent, rather than retaliate. The US goes into the Mid East, people want them out, people REALLY want them out, people become terrorists, people do things to the US, US goes further into Mid East, terrorists retaliate, US does more, terrorists do more...

so the majority of iragi's who DO want us there opinions do not count for some reason? we should listen to the violent minority?

Um, no they don't. The majority of Iraqis wanted the US to get rid of Saddam and then get out.

 

[sandorski]

Lead by example. If your way is superior, eventually people will see it and mimmick it.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: silverpig
Just like American land is really native land? Should China support the natives should they decide to take power in the US? Just like there is no distinct American culture differentiating them from other western nations (neglecting very very minor differences). Just like there is no American language? Just like how the region of America got its name within the past few hundred years?

actually you are incorrect on many points. 1. there are several distince "american" cultures 2. tehre are several "american" languages as well. and the fact the region of "america" got it's name in the past few hundred years is my point....

Originally posted by: silverpigWho the land belongs to is something that is very hard to say. Sure, it may have belonged to Jews thousands of years ago; so what? Up until the 1900s Israel as a country didn't exist. Jews did not live in the Mid East. The League of Nations basically moved in some Jews and said: here, this is your land now. They had no regard to the people whose land it was. Maybe Palestinians didn't have a formal country in place, but they did live there.

Point is it's a huge freaking mess.

but accusing others of "occupying" land is somehow easy? it sure seems to be...you also forget jews have lived in isreal even after the diaspora. so to say "The League of Nations basically moved in some Jews" is grossly incorrect, other than the jews who remained in isreal many imigrated in different periods in the 1400's 1600's and 1800's...all long before the league of nations existed.

also israel was basically a wasteland until the irragation projects staarted by the jews in the 1800's brought more jobs and more productive land to the region. many "palestinians" are not even from "palestine", including arafat himself, who is as i have already pointed out is an egyptian.

i agree it is a huge mess...made even more so by people who have no idea of historical fact, and others who do their best to ignore it

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Lead by example. If your way is superior, eventually people will see it and mimmick it.

unless they kill you first.

 

[Shad0hawK]

ahh more work to do!

see you guys ina few more days

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: silverpig
Just like American land is really native land? Should China support the natives should they decide to take power in the US? Just like there is no distinct American culture differentiating them from other western nations (neglecting very very minor differences). Just like there is no American language? Just like how the region of America got its name within the past few hundred years?

actually you are incorrect on many points. 1. there are several distince "american" cultures 2. tehre are several "american" languages as well. and the fact the region of "america" got it's name in the past few hundred years is my point....

Originally posted by: silverpigWho the land belongs to is something that is very hard to say. Sure, it may have belonged to Jews thousands of years ago; so what? Up until the 1900s Israel as a country didn't exist. Jews did not live in the Mid East. The League of Nations basically moved in some Jews and said: here, this is your land now. They had no regard to the people whose land it was. Maybe Palestinians didn't have a formal country in place, but they did live there.

Point is it's a huge freaking mess.

but accusing others of "occupying" land is somehow easy? it sure seems to be...you also forget jews have lived in isreal even after the diaspora. so to say "The League of Nations basically moved in some Jews" is grossly incorrect, other than the jews who remained in isreal many imigrated in different periods in the 1400's 1600's and 1800's...all long before the league of nations existed.

also israel was basically a wasteland until the irragation projects staarted by the jews in the 1800's brought more jobs and more productive land to the region. many "palestinians" are not even from "palestine", including arafat himself, who is as i have already pointed out is an egyptian.

i agree it is a huge mess...made even more so by people who have no idea of historical fact, and others who do their best to ignore it

Explain the differences between the different American cultures as you see them and how those differences differ from those of the relationship between Palestinians and other arabs. Where can I learn one of these american languages? As far as I know the only official American language is English. Other languages like Spanish are spoken, but they're hardly American.

America was named in the past hundred years, so it's a valid region, yet Palestine, which was named nearly 2000 years ago somehow isn't?