Is it possible to defeat the terrorists?

[Martin]

Originally posted by: glenn1

It needs to be fought from the foundations of it.

U.S. foreign policy is too focused on bombs and bullets instead of working with the various Arab governments to reform their own socio-economic programs in order to improve education and reduce poverty and to also reform basic human rights and religious freedoms.

You're looking for the simple solution where there aren't any. While focusing on socio-economic programs is a noble goal in and of itself, poverty isn't at the root of Islamicism. Otherwise, why would all the prime movers in the Islamicist movement be the middle to upper classes and educated. Of course there will be rubes from the poor who get stirred up about the typical problems cited by the Islamicists (e.g. Israel, etc), but these are merely the expendable pawns. The people who are the key players in Al Qaeda and who masterminded the 9/11 attacks were college-educated and not poor. Their background isn't what caused them to do what they did, it's the poison in their souls.

If terrorism is a bacteria, then poverty and desperation are the medium. Remove the medium, and the bacteria can't really grow. Rich, mature, developed countries don't have terrorism problems - that is, you will not see French or German farmers joining al qaeda (its all poor disenfranchised immigrants who have not become real citizens). Even in the arab world that holds true - while UAE isn't at the same level as the First World democracy-wise, they are all to busy making money and enjoying their wealth to care about terrotism.

You're right at the "movers" are all upper class (bin laden himself being one), but you can't ignore the fact that is true for any radical movement. French/American Revolutions were not lead by the peasantry, but by the upper classes. Che Guevara was from a rich upper class family, as was Ghandi. Lower classes don't lead , but they are the ones who carry out the actions (ie fight the british, firght the americans etc).

So while some military action is needed and justified, it alone will not solve anything. And while you're correct that "solving" the poverty/desperation problem won't make the idea go away, I think it will make it benign - after all Nazism is still around, but its not really a problem anymore.

 

[GunDog]

Originally posted by: katka

I can't EVER remember seeing Muslims going from country to country trying to convert people. People seek it out.

Sorta the same thing

Cant say Christmas in schools but yet teaching the koran. In California!

Appears like forced converting to me

 

[TechJunkie95242]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Of course not, terrorism isn't a people, it's an idea. You cannot defeat an idea by any means. It's the largest action in futility ever undertaken.

Don't be so sure about Bush being reelected, I have recently seen a poll that Bush's approval rating has dropped 9 points in two weeks and ONLY 29% of people believe the war in Iraq was worth it

The war, hopefully will cause him not to get reelected and to put a man of honor and one who isn't a coward to be president of the United States.

Vote John Kerry! :beer::thumbsup:

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: GunDog

Originally posted by: katka
I can't EVER remember seeing Muslims going from country to country trying to convert people. People seek it out.

Sorta the same thing

Cant say Christmas in schools but yet teaching the koran. In California!

Appears like forced converting to me

The State of California and the judge that dismissed that lawsuit disagree.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

No.

 

[Skiguy411]

Originally posted by: TechJunkie95242

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Of course not, terrorism isn't a people, it's an idea. You cannot defeat an idea by any means. It's the largest action in futility ever undertaken.

Don't be so sure about Bush being reelected, I have recently seen a poll that Bush's approval rating has dropped 9 points in two weeks and ONLY 29% of people believe the war in Iraq was worth it

The war, hopefully will cause him not to get reelected and to put a man of honor and one who isn't a coward to be president of the United States.

Vote John Kerry! :beer::thumbsup:

Oh great....every thread in P&N comes down to Bush vs Kerry or how much Bush sucks.....

 

[TechJunkie95242]

Who got us involved in this war on terrorism, or specifically what I was refering to; the war in Iraq?...

Exactly my point...

 

[katka]

Just like American land is really native land? Should China support the natives should they decide to take power in the US? Just like there is no distinct American culture differentiating them from other western nations (neglecting very very minor differences). Just like there is no American language? Just like how the region of America got its name within the past few hundred years?

Who the land belongs to is something that is very hard to say. Sure, it may have belonged to Jews thousands of years ago; so what? Up until the 1900s Israel as a country didn't exist. Jews did not live in the Mid East. The League of Nations basically moved in some Jews and said: here, this is your land now. They had no regard to the people whose land it was. Maybe Palestinians didn't have a formal country in place, but they did live there.

Point is it's a huge freaking mess.

Researched and found out that the land originally belonged to the Palastines who were then called Phillistines. Some wall fell down and many Palastines/Phillistines died and the Jew moved in for a while. The Jew started roaming around and come back trying to take over as described above. The Bible from a historical perspective tells the story, and I saw something on the History/Discovery channel sometime ago.

Um, no they don't. The majority of Iraqis wanted the US to get rid of Saddam and then get out.

Someone said that that is what the Iraqis want, things are added and subtracted when delivering messages.

i know liberals like to think that they really are open minded and informed of all possible angles of arguments, but in this case, you really do need to go and read the Koran from front to back. and when you decide to go do that, make sure you note the passages that mention the killing or enslavement of the infidels and about how the mission of islam is to [in effect] conquer the world.

You are correct that I have not read the Koran in its entirety. I don't need to because I know that Muslims follow the Koran "TO THE LETTER". They pray like they should, eat like they should, etc. I have NOT see the Muslims try to take "over the world", and know for a fact that if that is what the Koran said that is what they would have done. Period. Like with the bible someone may have "interpreted" or misinterpreted as the case obviously is that it has that meaning but since that haven't done so it would be very difficult for me to believe.

Of course not, terrorism isn't a people, it's an idea. You cannot defeat an idea by any means. It's the largest action in futility ever undertaken.

But ideas can be change IF the circumstances the fueled them disappear.

Appease them, while you try to understand them.

Of appease means to leave other people the H#LL alone, or give them back what belongs to them then OK.

Here's some understanding for katka (taken from a Bin-Laden statement released less than a month after 9/11):

I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger. There is America, hit by God in one of its softest spots. Its greatest buildings were destroyed, thank God for that.

There is America, full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that. [q/]

Your point is NOT well taken. What does Osama's affirmation of his faith have to do with anything???? He is not running around tell lies and trying to convert me. That is the difference.

There is a saying in Christianity that people come to God when they are down.

Because the Christian Channel people are beckoning them so they can beg for 10% to buy planes, new clothes, cadillacs, prostitutes, etc.
Notice with the Muslims that people are on their knee no matter what, but the sermons on TV are focused on you going to God in your time of need because he will fix it. Islam is about belief in God no matter what. Christianity is about begging God for things that you will never get while the preacher and the government get their share and you have patience while someone takes what's yours.

Sorta the same thing

Cant say Christmas in schools but yet teaching the koran. In California!

Appears like forced converting to me

Wrong the focus is on cultural awareness not conversion.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: katka
You are correct that I have not read the Koran in its entirety. I don't need to because I know that Muslims follow the Koran "TO THE LETTER". They pray like they should, eat like they should, etc. I have NOT see the Muslims try to take "over the world", and know for a fact that if that is what the Koran said that is what they would have done. Period. Like with the bible someone may have "interpreted" or misinterpreted as the case obviously is that it has that meaning but since that haven't done so it would be very difficult for me to believe.

Really?

If all muslims followed their religious teachings "TO THE LETTER", then we would really have something to worry about. Could you give me the appropriate interpretations of what these passages actually mean?
I'm having a hard time figuring out how they fit in the religion of peace.

Qur'an 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an 8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an 9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Qur'an 9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."

Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."


But yeah, I guess we can solve this whole problem by just respecting them and leaving them alone. After all, there is nothing wrong with wanting to kill all non-believers. Why can't we just try harder to understand this.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: katka
You are correct that I have not read the Koran in its entirety. I don't need to because I know that Muslims follow the Koran "TO THE LETTER". They pray like they should, eat like they should, etc. I have NOT see the Muslims try to take "over the world", and know for a fact that if that is what the Koran said that is what they would have done. Period. Like with the bible someone may have "interpreted" or misinterpreted as the case obviously is that it has that meaning but since that haven't done so it would be very difficult for me to believe.

Really?

If all muslims followed their religious teachings "TO THE LETTER", then we would really have something to worry about. Could you give me the appropriate interpretations of what these passages actually mean?
I'm having a hard time figuring out how they fit in the religion of peace.

Qur'an 9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an 8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an 9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper. Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion will be victorious."

Qur'an 8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:324 "He said, 'Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'"

Qur'an 9:14 "Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them."

Ishaq:300 "I am fighting in Allah's service. This is piety and a good deed. In Allah's war I do not fear as others should. For this fighting is righteous, true, and good."


But yeah, I guess we can solve this whole problem by just respecting them and leaving them alone. After all, there is nothing wrong with wanting to kill all non-believers. Why can't we just try harder to understand this.

Context is important. We could easily find similar passages in the Bible talking about Genocide and lamenting the failure to commit Genocide to its' conclusion. Of course these can be countered, but don't you think that the Muslim also can counter your passages? Do you seriously feel comfortable pointing your finger at them while ignoring the history of what Christianity/Judaism has perpetuated?

Don't kid yourself, there is a fine line between Civilization and Barbarism, people of all Religions, Philosophies, and Ideas fall on either side of the 2 at various points in time. It is usually those pointing the finger at "Barbarians" that are the ones who have Fallen into Barbarism.

 

[katka]

Context is important. We could easily find similar passages in the Bible talking about Genocide and lamenting the failure to commit Genocide to its' conclusion. Of course these can be countered, but don't you think that the Muslim also can counter your passages? Do you seriously feel comfortable pointing your finger at them while ignoring the history of what Christianity/Judaism has perpetuated?

Don't kid yourself, there is a fine line between Civilization and Barbarism, people of all Religions, Philosophies, and Ideas fall on either side of the 2 at various points in time. It is usually those pointing the finger at "Barbarians" that are the ones who have Fallen into Barbarism.

Exactly, I agree wholeheartedly. One liners with reference to religious documents usually means erroneous context, or an attempt to manipulate or both. The last page in a book says "the end", but what about the thousands of other pages before that statement came?

I am not convinced, nor will I ever be. This is a discusssion and we both have that right.

 

[BurnItDwn]

honestly, the only way to really win (that I can see, and i really really really really really hope I am wrong) involves extermination.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn
honestly, the only way to really win (that I can see, and i really really really really really hope I am wrong) involves extermination.

You are wrong, so take heart.