Is it me or is this Unattended child in motor vehicle law too vague

[Sho'Nuff]

Nah. My opinion in this thread isn't based on any statistics, not that I'd give a fuck either way. My opinion is based on both growing up and being a parent in Chicago. Statistics don't mean shit to me in some cases. Far too many shitheads walking around here means I couldn't care less what numbers say.

So is your opinion that because Chicago is relatively unsafe that all parents everywhere must abide by the duty of care that a Chicago parent would exercise?

 

[dabuddha]

Based on your rationale no parent should ever leave their child's side. Ever. Because if they do, something bad might happen. Little johnny might choke, he might get kidnapped, he might go into respiratory distress, he might poop himself and start eating it, etc. The possibilities are endless and we should never expose children to any sort of risk.

Newsflash - people just one generation ago left their kids in the car unattended while they did minor errands. And guess what? Most of those kids are now well adjusted adults. The fact that something might happen is not justification for a law prohibiting something that is in fact quite safe, particularly when a parent exercises reasonable judgment.

FWIW I am a parent of two small children. I have left both of them in a locked car while I do minor errands (e.g., taking money out of an ATM), particularly when the car is in plain view from wherever I am. If the car will be out of sight for any length of time, the kids go with me.

Also - I find it extremely annoying that your kind of people feel like it is somehow your job to tell everyone else what they must do, when in fact most people would exercise reasonable judgment to avoid exposing their kids to unreasonable risks of harm. Mind your own business. Your just like my idiot neighbor who stood at the end of my driveway to "make sure my son was ok" when he (my 5 year old son) was playing up by my garage some 200 feet from the road where I could easily watch him through the window (and I was watching him). And no, the neighbor is not a pedophile (See- its easy to predict where your worry wort mind will go). But I'm sure you would say that it should be criminal for kids to play in the front yard without a parent present, right?

Forgive me for being callus, but it is not the government's job to parent its citizens or the children of its citizens.

Now you're just being unreasonable. If that's all you got from what I said, then you're completely lost. There's reasonable risk and theres unreasonable risk. Just because you're a fat lazy slob that doesn't want to take his child out while he runs into the post office for 25-30 minutes to mail a package doesn't mean it's ok to leave your kid inside.

Sure people used to leave their kids in cards unattended. I used to stay in the car when my mom would run errands. But if you're actually naive enough to believe that the world 30 years ago is the same as the world today, then there's no point in trying to explain it to you

Sadly, it is our job to tell people like you not to leave their kids in their cars since you don't seem to understand the concept of responsibility. How about this. I tell this same thing to retarded pitbull owners that like to claim pitbulls are sweet and harmless dogs. If your child gets hurt/kidnapped because of direct negligence (aka leaving them unattended in a car), you should be put to death. Since you're so confident that it's perfectly fine, you should be ok with that

Good thing the neighbor was out responsibly watching your kid while you were out of eyeshot. This way we don't have to see your dumb ass on the 6:00 news crying about you turned around for "1 second" and your kid disappeared.

Now you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your mind so I'll leave it at that. I'll just hope your kids end up ok

 

[Brovane]

A couple of times I left my children in the car under 6 when I was driving them to the grand-parents house which was about 3-hours away. I need to stop and use the bathroom and they didn't need to. So I just parked the car and locked it and ran inside. Now that my children are 8 and 9 I am really not concerned about leaving them in the car with the windows rolled down. However it is only for short periods of time maybe 5-10 mins.

 

[nageov3t]

Sure people used to leave their kids in cards unattended. I used to stay in the car when my mom would run errands. But if you're actually naive enough to believe that the world 30 years ago is the same as the world today, then there's no point in trying to explain it to you

the world today is actually a lot safer than it was 30 years ago :whiste:

looks like most victims of kidnapping are actually teenagers/adults.

http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=158

couldn't find a good graph for rates over time, though.

 

[alkemyst]

I think it depends on age and how long.

leaving a child under 4 alone in a hot car and going into walmart? call the cops.

leaving a child alone going into pay for gas at the gas station? continue on your way.

Why not use a card at the pump if you are toting kids around?

 

[torpid]

I don't understand. There are already neglect laws that covert all sorts of scenarios. Imagine the scenario above with the candy and the choking child. If that had taken place inside of the home, with the mother in the other room doing something or other for a period of time, it's not like that would be ok but suddenly because it happened in a car, it isn't, right?

These laws are supposed to further strengthen the already existing neglect and abuse laws by specifically addressing the dangers of leaving children unattended in cars. As such, I don't think there is a need to make it go so far as to disallow leaving children in cars PERIOD. That is just a recipe for an unenforceable law. What about when I'm pumping gas? What about the time period between when the child is put into the car seat and when the parent enters the car?

 

[alkemyst]

Nanny state? How about some of the nanny parents. I was walking from my house to my friend's houses, alone, by kindergarten. By 2nd grade, my curfew was "when it starts getting dark - you better be home by the time the street lights turn on." Ditto for my own kids. And, amazingly, the boogie man didn't steal them.

How many school shootings were there back then?

 

[moonbogg]

I saw a child left in the back seat of a black bmw in the parking lot of the Microcenter I go to. I looked at the child and he didn't look to be in distress so instead of calling 911 I told the security guard. He said he would tell his manager and they ended up paging the guardian to get the child out.

What do you guys think? I think the law should be that a child should never be left unattended in a vehicle. This wording leaves too much at the discretion of people

Sorry about the law paste. I copy pastad from a pdf file

You fucking kidding me? I voted "no" because I was thinking of pulling up to the gas station and leaving the kid in the car seat while getting gas, grabbing a drink inside (depending on vehicle location and visibility/proximity of car to shop door).
Leaving the kid in the parking lot while you go inside the store is insane. What if someone steals the car and the kid?
Anyway, I'd vote "no" still because I need some slack to justify my own poor judgment and actions. Got a problem!?

 

[T9D]

I don't understand. There are already neglect laws that covert all sorts of scenarios. Imagine the scenario above with the candy and the choking child. If that had taken place inside of the home, with the mother in the other room doing something or other for a period of time, it's not like that would be ok but suddenly because it happened in a car, it isn't, right?

These laws are supposed to further strengthen the already existing neglect and abuse laws by specifically addressing the dangers of leaving children unattended in cars. As such, I don't think there is a need to make it go so far as to disallow leaving children in cars PERIOD. That is just a recipe for an unenforceable law. What about when I'm pumping gas? What about the time period between when the child is put into the car seat and when the parent enters the car?

Yup or god forbid the mother has to take a long dump and can't see the child from the throne. Then the guys friend can say he was looking in her house window and saw the kid alone and call the police on her for taking a dump without bringing the child in the bathroom.

 

[Linflas]

How many school shootings were there back then?

1950s[edit]
April 25, 1950: Peru, Nebraska, Dr. William Nicholas, 48, president of Peru State College and Dr. Paul Maxwell, 56, education department head, were shot to death at their desks by Dr. Barney Baker, 54-year-old psychology professor. Baker was found dead of a self-inflicted gunshot at his home on campus.[123]
July 22, 1950: New York City, A 16-year-old boy was shot in the wrist and abdomen at the Public School 141 dance during an argument with a former classmate.[124]
January 24, 1951: Alton, Illinois, Henry Suhre, 61, quartermaster at Western Military Academy was shot to death in the cadet store on campus.[125]
March 12, 1951: Union Mills, North Carolina, Professor W. E. Sweatt, superintendent and teacher at the Alexander School, was shot to death by students Billy Ray Powell, 16, and Hugh Justice, 19. The assailants had been reprimanded by Sweatt, and they waited for him as he locked his office door.[126]
June 4, 1951: New York City, Carl Arch, a 50-year-old intruder to a girl's gym class was shot and killed by a police officer at Manhattan's Central Commercial High School.[127]
November 27, 1951: New York City, David Brooks, a 15-year-old student, was fatally shot as fellow pupils looked on in a grade school.[128]
April 9, 1952: New York City, A 15-year-old boarding school student shot a dean rather than relinquish pin-up pictures of girls in bathing suits.[129]
July 14, 1952: New York City, Bayard Peakes walked into the offices of the American Physical Society (APS) at Columbia University and shot and killed secretary Eileen Fahey with a .22 caliber pistol. Peakes was reportedly upset that the APS had rejected a pamphlet he had written.[130]
September 3, 1952: Lawrenceville, Illinois, After Georgine Lyon, 25, ended her engagement with Charles Petrach, Petrach shot and killed Lyon in a classroom at Lawrenceville High School where she worked as a librarian.[131]
November 20, 1952: New York City, Rear Admiral E. E. Herrmann, 56, superintendent of the Naval Postgraduate School, was found dead in his office with a bullet in his head. A service revolver was found by his side.[132]
October 2, 1953: Chicago, Illinois, Patrick Colletta, 14, was shot to death by Bernice Turner,14, in a classroom of Kelly High School. It was reported that after Turner refused to date Colletta he handed her the gun and dared her to pull the trigger, telling her that the gun was “only a toy.” A coroner’s jury later ruled that the shooting was an accident.[133]
October 8, 1953: New York City, Larry Licitra, 17-year-old student at the Machine and Metal Trades High School, was shot and slightly wounded in the right shoulder in the lobby of the school while inspecting a handmade pistol owned by one of several students.[134]
March 31, 1954: Newton, Massachusetts, John Frankenberger, 14, was accidentally shot to death in a classroom at Day Junior High School when a pistol being held by a classmate discharged.[135]
May 15, 1954: Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Putnam Davis Jr. was shot and killed during a fraternity house carnival at the Phi Delta Theta house at the University of North Carolina. William Joyner and Allen Long were shot and wounded during the exchange of gunfire in their fraternity bedroom. The incident took place after an all-night beer party. Mr. Long reported to the police that, while the three were drinking beer at 7 a.m., Davis pulled out a gun and started shooting with a gun he had obtained from the car of a former roommate.[136]
January 11, 1955: Swarthmore, Pennsylvania, After some of his dormmates urinated on his mattress, Bob Bechtel, a 20-year-old student at Swarthmore College, returned to his dorm with a shotgun and used it to shoot and kill fellow student Holmes Strozier.[137]
May 4, 1956: Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School after he had been reprimanded from the school.[138]
October 20, 1956: New York City, A Booker T. Washington Junior High School student was wounded in the forearm by another student armed with a home-made weapon.[139]
October 2, 1957: New York City, A 16-year-old student was shot in the leg by a 15-year-old classmate at a city high school.[140]
March 4, 1958: New York City, A 17-year-old student shot a boy in the Manual Training High School.[141]
May 1, 1958: Massapequa, New York, A 15-year-old high Massapequa High School freshman was shot and killed by a classmate in a washroom.[142]
September 24, 1959: New York City, Twenty-seven men and boys and an arsenal were seized in the Bronx as the police headed off a gang war resulting from the fatal shooting of a teenager at Morris High School.[

1960s[edit]
February 2, 1960: Hartford City, Indiana, Principal Leonard Redden shot and killed two teachers with a shotgun at William Reed Elementary School before fleeing into a remote forest, where he committed suicide.[144]
March 30, 1960: Alice, Texas, Donna Dvorak, 14, brought a .22 target pistol to Dubose Junior High School, and fatally shot Bobby Whitford, 15, in their 9th grade science class. Dvorak believed Whitford posed a threat to one of her girlfriends.[145]
June 7, 1960: Blaine, Minnesota, Lester Betts, a 40-year-old mail-carrier, confronted principal Carson Hammond, 33, in his Blaine Elementary School office and shot him to death with a 12-gauge shotgun.[146][147]
January 4, 1961: Delmont, South Dakota, Donald Kurtz, 17-year-old senior at Delmont High School, was fatally wounded by a .22 caliber bullet from a rifle. The shot, intended as a sound effect for a school play, hit him in the chest during a rehearsal just minutes before the play was to take place.[148]
October 17, 1961: Denver, Colorado, Tennyson Beard, 14, got into an argument with William Hachmeister, 15, at Morey Junior High School. During the argument Beard pulled out a .38 caliber revolver and shot at Hachmeister, wounding him. A stray bullet also struck Deborah Faith Humphrey, 14, who died from her gunshot wound.[149]
April 27, 1966: Bay Shore, New York, Teacher John S. Lane, 48, was shot and fatally wounded when he tried to stop 16-year-old student James Arthur Frampton, who was walking through the halls of Bay Shore Senior High School with a shotgun, searching for some boys with whom he had an argument earlier that day. Lane died of his wounds on June 13, 1966.[150][151][152]
August 1, 1966: Charles Whitman, aged 25, climbed atop the observation deck at the University of Texas-Austin, and killed 17 people and wounded 31 during a 96-minute shooting rampage in the University of Texas massacre.[153]
October 5, 1966: Grand Rapids, Minnesota, Grand Rapids High School student David Black, 15, killed school administrator Forrest Willey and seriously wounded fellow student Kevin Roth, 14.[154][155]
November 12, 1966: Mesa, Arizona, Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22 caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre. Smith had reportedly admired Richard Speck and Charles Whitman.[156]
January 24, 1968: High Point, North Carolina, David Walker, 15, was shot to death just outside Central High School by Gerald Locklear, 15.
January 30, 1968: Miami, Florida, 16-year-old Blanche Ward shot and killed fellow student Linda Lipscomb, 16, with a .22 caliber pistol at Miami Jackson High School. According to Ward, she was threatened with a razor by Lipscomb during an argument over a fountain pen, and in the ensuing struggle the gun went off.[157]
February 8, 1968: Orangeburg, South Carolina, In the days leading up to February 8, 1968, about 200 mostly student protesters gathered on the campus of South Carolina State University, located in the city of Orangeburg, to protest the segregation of the All Star Bowling Lane. The bowling alley was owned by the late Harry K. Floyd. That night, students started a bonfire. As police attempted to put out the fire, an officer was injured by a thrown piece of banister. The police said they believed they were under attack by small weapons fire. The officers fired into the crowd, killing three young men: Samuel Hammond, Delano Middleton, and Henry Smith, and wounding twenty-seven others.[158]
May 22, 1968: Miami, Florida, Ernest Lee Grissom, a 15-year-old student at Drew Junior High School, shot and seriously wounded a teacher and a 13-year-old student after he had been reprimanded for causing a disturbance.[159]
January 17, 1969: Los Angeles, California, Two student members of the Black Panther Party, Alprentice Carter and John Huggins, were fatally shot during a student meeting inside Campbell Hall at the University of California, Los Angeles. The motive of the shooting regarded who would own the school's African American Studies Center. The shooter, Claude Hubert, was never to be found but three other men were arrested in connection with the shooting.[160]
January 23, 1969: Washington, DC, Cardozo Senior High School assistant principal Herman Clifford, 45, was shot to death in the school's hallway by Ronald Joyner, 18, while scuffling with three youths who robbed the school's bank.[161]
May 13, 1969: Winston-Salem, North Carolina, Ernest Napoleon Carter Jr., 13, was accidentally shot and killed at Hanes Junior High School by a 13-year-old classmate, who was armed with a .32-caliber pistol. The 13-year-old shooter was charged with involuntary manslaughter. Carter's mother filed a lawsuit against the Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Board of Education for $50,000 in damages.[162][163]
November 19, 1969: Tomah, Wisconsin, 46-year-old Martin Mogensen, Principal of Tomah Junior High School, was shot to death in his office by a 14-year-old boy armed with a 20-gauge shotgun.[164]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#1950s

 

[Sho'Nuff]

Now you're just being unreasonable. If that's all you got from what I said, then you're completely lost. There's reasonable risk and theres unreasonable risk. Just because you're a fat lazy slob that doesn't want to take his child out while he runs into the post office for 25-30 minutes to mail a package doesn't mean it's ok to leave your kid inside.

I'm being unreasonable? You are the pot calling the kettle black. Sure, its reasonable to write laws based on tragic scenarios that generally only occur when someone makes a mistake or is too stupid to realize that what they are doing is unsafe. Riiiight. Let me ask you, how many little johnny's is the law going to save from someone who is too dumb to recognize the danger on their own?

Also, where did you get the impression that I would leave my kids for such an extended time in the car? If you actually read what i said you would understand that we are arguing for the same thing, i.e., PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITY. Just not legally enforced parental responsibility that governs a scenario that 99.9 out of 100 parents would safely navigate. I think it is perfectly safe to rely on parental judgement in this particular case. Will there be outliers? Sure. But there are outliers to EVERYTHING.

Sure people used to leave their kids in cards unattended. I used to stay in the car when my mom would run errands. But if you're actually naive enough to believe that the world 30 years ago is the same as the world today, then there's no point in trying to explain it to you

I think the data might surprise you.

Sadly, it is our job to tell people like you not to leave their kids in their cars since you don't seem to understand the concept of responsibility. How about this. I tell this same thing to retarded pitbull owners that like to claim pitbulls are sweet and harmless dogs. If your child gets hurt/kidnapped because of direct negligence (aka leaving them unattended in a car), you should be put to death. Since you're so confident that it's perfectly fine, you should be ok with that

What pray tell is "direct negligence?" Its pretty easy to justify your ravings with your own made up legal standards.

Look, most people excercise good judgment in these circumstances. And those that don't will punish themselves far worse and for far longer than any punishment society could impose if their child ends up being harmed.

Hell, while were at it lets legislate and criminalize everything that normal, rational people would not do. If you jump off a cliff, you get 10 years in prison. Tie a cinder block to your leg and jump into a river? That'll be 20 years. Intentionally poke a pencil in your eye? Death.

Good thing the neighbor was out responsibly watching your kid while you were out of eyeshot. This way we don't have to see your dumb ass on the 6:00 news crying about you turned around for "1 second" and your kid disappeared.

You really can't read, can you. My post explicitly stated that I was watching my son through the window. Oh wait. In your world watching children through a transparent object is criminal and should be punished by death. My bad.

Now you're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to change your mind so I'll leave it at that. I'll just hope your kids end up ok

There is no changing your mind in this case because you are simply out of your mind.

 

[MrDudeMan]

I stayed in the car all the time as a kid when my parents were going into a store. With the keys, so I could listen to the radio. I didn't die, get kidnapped, or take the car for a joyride.

It's completely irrelevant what happened or didn't happen to you. I'm really getting tired of people not understanding how retarded this argument is.

 

[Colt45]

If you follow number 2, it could cause #1 to occur, being too hot or cold out with no heat or ac.

 

[zinfamous]

I read that as "unintended child in vehicle."

:hmm: