Is it even possible to avoid a complete train wreck in the November election?

[Jhhnn]

Alarmist hyperbole.

As I said, perhaps you can explain it in other terms rather than just dismissing it. I can't come up with another explanation. Maybe you can, if you work at it hard enough. Just remember you're talking about a man who's hosting giant Covid parties all over the Country, so nothing is beneath him.

I'm not terribly alarmed about him being able to pull it off because I think our institutions are stronger than that and because I figure he's getting thrashed at the polls.

 

[ondma]

I watched Bill Maher last night. He seems obsessed with the "Trump will not leave" idea. Several times, when he started talking about this, the panelists interrupted him and stressed the fact that the first step is to be sure he is defeated decisively in the election. I could not agree more. We cannot let the talk of not leaving office distract us from the most important point, which is to get out the vote and defeat Trump.

 

[Grooveriding]

If you think it's not going to affect you should democracy happen to effectively end after this US election, you're wrong. Everyone should be afraid.

Yup. If Trump loses and steals the election regardless, it is a bad time for the world at large. People have this ability to deny the reality of awful developments as they unfold. Thinking it will not be so bad, somehow work out differently than it logically likely will. Ignore the writing on the wall. Maybe it is a coping mechanism.

Trump has gotten away with a pile of stuff that was said he never would do or get away with.

Democracy collapses in the US, there is the chance of civil war, but also how does the rest of the world deal with a failed state US? It's a nightmare, with a nutcase like Trump, and a country that needs trade to function. What happens if there are sanctions, diplomatic ties cut? Eventually it's war.

Worst case, it's WW2 again with the US playing Germany and Trump as Hitler. I'm not sure how it can be underestimated how catastrophic Trump losing the election, and scamming his way in, actually is.

 

[MrSquished]

I don't get the dictator for life thing. There are really Americans who want Trump to be permanent POTUS? Seriously? I haven't seen that anywhere but here in P&N, and no corroborating evidence of any kind, no links, no Twitter stuff, etc.

The Atlantic article I linked in the OP makes a clear case that Trump will never admit he was fairly defeated in the election, no matter what, just because of who he is, the nature of his personality disorder. He will/would claim it was rigged, that he actually would have won if this and that hadn't happened and he'll take that to his dying bed and never change his mind... maybe in a delirium he would, but it's doubtful.

His followers? Well, TBH, where I live they don't exist. There are people living 20 miles from me who are Trumpies, but in my town they either don't exist or don't dare come out of their closets.

I will say one thing, though. If Trump through machinations, intimidation, legal wrangles invalidating ballots, etc. etc. manages to steal the election the violence that will ensue will be an order of magnitude greater than the Trumpies will produce if Biden prevails.

You obviously don't spend time on social media. The Trump cult is there and they want president Trump for life, and they are fully convinced by this point that the only way he can lose is by fraud.

 

[MrSquished]

And don't forget, bill Barr is willing to use the full weight of the DOJ to install fascism. Trump is the clown show for the rubes, Barr is the cold calculating methodical fascist.

 

[woolfe9998]

I just don't believe that's a likely outcome. Seems very possible it will be a horrible mess, with lots of dramatic plot-twists (hopefully ending with a complete humiliation for the Narcissist-in-chief), but I can't see it being the 'end of democracy'. The death of US democracy is an ongoing and very drawn-out process (that has been underway for a long time). It's not going to be a single event.

I know I really shouldn't be savouring the entertainment possibilities because the US being what it is (and in particular, the US right being what it is) there may well be isolated incidents of violence as part of the aftermath and innocent people may suffer the consequences.

First of all democracy has been eroding here for quite some time. Should it effectively end in all but name only after this election it won't just be due to a sudden one off event.

Second, those who think we're probably going to be fine are looking at it structurally. All major institutions seems to be in place. Check. Constitution still standing. Check.

But are not looking at what has happened at the population level. Qanon has taken over the political right here. Qanon is a fascist doomsday cult. These people believe we will experience a national renewal when Trump brings a day of reckoning upon all the "enemies" who are styled as Satanic pedophiles. They will not accept Trump leaving office and they fully support him doing whatever is necessary to stay.

If Trump steals the election through false claims of voting fraud and nefarious legal and quasi-legal maneuverings, then in effect no POTUS has to worry about losing an election ever again. And how do you imagine a man like Trump would govern in a second term?

If Trump stays in office without legitimately winning this election, he won't leave it until he dies.

 

[Muse]

First of all democracy has been eroding here for quite some time. Should it effectively end in all but name only after this election it won't just be due to a sudden one off event.

Second, those who think we're probably going to be fine are looking at it structurally. All major institutions seems to be in place. Check. Constitution still standing. Check.

But are not looking at what has happened at the population level. Qanon has taken over the political right here. Qanon is a fascist doomsday cult. These people believe we will experience a national renewal when Trump brings a day of reckoning upon all the "enemies" who are styled as Satanic pedophiles. They will not accept Trump leaving office and they fully support him doing whatever is necessary to stay.

If Trump steals the election through false claims of voting fraud and nefarious legal and quasi-legal maneuverings, then in effect no POTUS has to worry about losing an election ever again. And how do you imagine a man like Trump would govern in a second term?

If Trump stays in office without legitimately winning this election, he won't leave it until he dies.

If Trump stays in office without legitimately winning this election, he won't leave it until he dies.

I don't get how that would happen other than after a 2nd term, he creates chaos to confuse the issue of who won (he can't be a candidate) and just stays in office because no one else can be sworn in. Seems pretty ludicrous. The USA will have lost its marbles at that point and not much would make sense. Just some dystopian nightmare.

 

[Greenman]

No. It's not. Neither do any other presidents actively sabotage the post office running up to an election.

More hyperbole.

 

[MrSquished]

I don't get how that would happen other than after a 2nd term, he creates chaos to confuse the issue of who won (he can't be a candidate) and just stays in office because no one else can be sworn in. Seems pretty ludicrous. The USA will have lost its marbles at that point and not much would make sense. Just some dystopian nightmare.

During his illegitimate second term they will destroy any barriers to him running again plus will have destroyed any ability to hold true Democratic elections by the time any such sham elections take place.

 

[hal2kilo]

More hyperbole.

I almost like you've been completely gaslighted.

 

[woolfe9998]

I don't get how that would happen other than after a 2nd term, he creates chaos to confuse the issue of who won (he can't be a candidate) and just stays in office because no one else can be sworn in. Seems pretty ludicrous. The USA will have lost its marbles at that point and not much would make sense. Just some dystopian nightmare.

If Trump in effect wins by stealing the election, there is going to be unrest and a massive increase in political violence. Trump will use that situation to justify extreme and emergency measures.

One way or another, I don't think he'll ever leave if he remains, especially if he remains after stealing the election. If POTUSES can remain after losing elections, that is the end.

Don't forget that most of Trump's supporters fully support a fascist takeover by Trump. In their minds, this is life or death for what they think of as "western civilization."

 

[Greenman]

I almost like you've been completely gaslighted.

That must be it. Obviously there is no way I could have formed a rational opinion on my own.

Btw. "Gaslighted" is yet another term used in place of producing a logical construct. It isn't an explanation or an argument, it's a lazy substitute for actual thought.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Brilliant!

I don't always 100% agree with Mr. Bill Maher, but I deeply admire his often eloquent comic brilliance and the common sense, humanity and wisdom he brings to the positions he takes. He NEVER panders or equivocates or backtracks or weasels.

I deeply grateful he eventually survived cancel culture/deadly "patriotism" that nearly killed his career when he dared to say, in the days right after 9/11:

“We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly.”

You can say what you wish about the possibile rhetorical overreach of that statement, but it also contains the tiny kernel of an inconvenient truth.

He often (and by often I mean sometimes every other week) criticizes the left because they basically do just about everything wrong.

Something tells me you prefer to tune those out for some odd-reason while praising his remarks that suit your agenda.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

"Is it even possible to avoid a comlete train wreck in the November election?"

- No.

 

[Perknose]

He often (and by often I mean sometimes every other week) criticizes the left because they basically do just about everything wrong.

Something tells me you prefer to tune those out for some odd-reason while praising his remarks that suit your agenda.

Pure projection, sport. Also, not the case. Finally, you're annoying and not really worth further engaging.

 

[cytg111]

Alarmist hyperbole.

Full onset Slow. Its a hell of a drug.

 

[cytg111]

He often (and by often I mean sometimes every other week) criticizes the left because they basically do just about everything wrong.

Something tells me you prefer to tune those out for some odd-reason while praising his remarks that suit your agenda.

Shitlol, you imagine someone doing something you dont like and then berate and blame them for things going on only in your mind. Is it that time of month? Want some dark chocolate? Running off emotion all the time is a hell of a drug.

 

[trenchfoot]

Bottom line here, Trump is behaving exactly as any dictator under duress would while we as a nation are still barely hanging on to the remnants of a democracy that is under siege from his autocratic style of rule.

Therein lies the numerous constitutional conflicts that Trump, his obedient lapdog Barr and McConnell have stirred up in order to ram their agendas down the throats of The People, that being the sector and I dare say the majority of the nation that are unwilling to yield to their form of autocratic power play politics.

It seems to me Trump will get his puppet jurist installed but at a price that may include losing the House, Senate and Executive.

Trump has made known the only concern of his as far as who he got told to nominate to the High Court is that that lackey of theirs will, without any doubt support Trump should he contest the results of the election. He doesn't care about Roe v Wade, nor does he care about any other conservative ideological dogma other than exploiting those factors toward keeping him in office.

 

[Commodus]

I don't get the dictator for life thing. There are really Americans who want Trump to be permanent POTUS? Seriously? I haven't seen that anywhere but here in P&N, and no corroborating evidence of any kind, no links, no Twitter stuff, etc.

The Atlantic article I linked in the OP makes a clear case that Trump will never admit he was fairly defeated in the election, no matter what, just because of who he is, the nature of his personality disorder. He will/would claim it was rigged, that he actually would have won if this and that hadn't happened and he'll take that to his dying bed and never change his mind... maybe in a delirium he would, but it's doubtful.

His followers? Well, TBH, where I live they don't exist. There are people living 20 miles from me who are Trumpies, but in my town they either don't exist or don't dare come out of their closets.

I will say one thing, though. If Trump through machinations, intimidation, legal wrangles invalidating ballots, etc. etc. manages to steal the election the violence that will ensue will be an order of magnitude greater than the Trumpies will produce if Biden prevails.

It's not a literal statement so much as how they treat Trump and his actions. Many of them see Trump's election as not only inevitable, but mandatory; either he stays in power or the country collapses (and you can tell they're upset that Trump can't hold a third term). And then there's the cheerleading for abuses of power, which you're clearly aware of.

The Trumpists on this forum certainly treat Trump like a dictator. They hate any media that doesn't flatter Trump 24/7; any politician who disagrees with him is evil, even if they were part of his cabinet; they see the obvious abuses and illegal activity and shrug. There isn't even a shred of the respect for disagreement that existed in the past.

 

[Grey_Beard]

That must be it. Obviously there is no way I could have formed a rational opinion on my own.

Btw. "Gaslighted" is yet another term used in place of producing a logical construct. It isn't an explanation or an argument, it's a lazy substitute for actual thought.

It must be nice to stick your head on the sand. I cannot and will not. You continue to a willingness to overlook thing that do not agree with your view. Some call it gaslighted. You call it lazy because you just nibble on the edges to stir it up. Your philosophy is why we are here. If you do not feel that a boot on your neck is a bad thing, then that is your choice. I will be saying that this happen only “...out of my cold dead hands.” Go back and put your head in the sand.

 

[Grey_Beard]

This is serious and could happen. We can be fearful, but I will do everything I can to stop it. Rally people. Donate. Vote. Volunteer. Protest. Riot. Take up arms. Democracy is worth it to me.

The debate will touch on this subject. It will be interesting to hear the responses. I look forward to watch that, as o also think tRump makes so many miscalculations that has performance will be a disaster. If it is not, many will say OMG and that he is finally presidential, like he could ever be. One month left.

 

[nickqt]

That must be it. Obviously there is no way I could have formed a rational opinion on my own.

Btw. "Gaslighted" is yet another term used in place of producing a logical construct. It isn't an explanation or an argument, it's a lazy substitute for actual thought.

You say that very calmly and rationally, while staring intently at that mirror.

 

[Jhhnn]

That must be it. Obviously there is no way I could have formed a rational opinion on my own.

Btw. "Gaslighted" is yet another term used in place of producing a logical construct. It isn't an explanation or an argument, it's a lazy substitute for actual thought.

You're not being honest with yourself. Why would any President work so hard to discredit & destroy the legitimacy of the electoral process other than to be able to set it aside? If that's not the point of the exercise, what is? Explain it if you can.

 

[woolfe9998]

You're not being honest with yourself. Why would any President work so hard to discredit & destroy the legitimacy of the electoral process other than to be able to set it aside? If that's not the point of the exercise, what is? Explain it if you can.

Yup, and worse still, he lies about it. All the evidence including that collected by conservatives shows no pattern of significant voter fraud in this country be it by in person or mail-in voting. When he makes these claims contrary to all known evidence, he is lying. Why is he lying about this? Just for kicks?

 

[Jhhnn]

Yup, and worse still, he lies about it. All the evidence including that collected by conservatives shows no pattern of significant voter fraud in this country be it by in person or mail-in voting. When he makes these claims contrary to all known evidence, he is lying. Why is he lying about this? Just for kicks?

I don't recall Greenman taking that line. Others obviously have in the past, but I don't think he's among them. I don't think he or many conservatives understand the full horror of Trump's twisted derangement. They just can't see it. The insane bastard is baiting his most loyal followers into spreading the contagion by rallying, knowing they won't show any sense at all about masks or social distancing. The callous depravity of that means he's capable of anything, and not in a good way at all.