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Is it even possible to avoid a complete train wreck in the November election?

Muse

Muse

Lifer
That's a complete understatement. I read this last night, and it scared the shit out of me, and I'm not easily scared. I've been seeing ideas like this in the P&N Forum for weeks now but didn't understand the complexities. This article discusses the complexities ( and it IS complex ) but it's even more complex than they had space to explain. Even so, the detail is considerable.

www.theatlantic.com

The Election That Could Break America

If the vote is close, Donald Trump could easily throw the election into chaos and subvert the result. Who will stop him?
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com

READ IT! This is shaping up to be a slam dunk for the worst POTUS election in the nation's history and by far. In fact it's looking like that would be hard to avoid.
 
Yeah, it's going to be a mess even though the story by necessity is discussing "what ifs."

I don't think we'll get to the nightmare scenario where there are two or even three people who claim they should be sworn in, but it's easy to imagine a situation where Trump falsely claims to have won on election night, well before the votes have been calculated, only to lose as mail-in ballot counting wraps up in the days afterward.

What worries me: even if Biden wins in a blowout, where there's no ambiguity over the vote count, Trump will likely not admit that he lost. That's not to say he'll formally contest the results in that case, but that he'll claim the vote was rigged no matter what. And that could easily prompt violence from extremists.

At the least, a clear Biden win would still produce doom-and-gloom whining from Trumpists, the people who genuinely want Dear Leader to be dictator for life.
 
Republicans will have broken America actually, but yes, scary shit. At this point only an asskicking by voters in Nov, or assassination (a reality thanks to GOP obstruction) can save the country. This is where we are, all thanks to the cult of Trumpism and people like McConnell and Gingrich.

Putin wins. Xi wins. America and the post WW2 world order go down the drain. But hey, at least fascism is back and women/minorities can once again be 2nd class citizens.

I weep for my country. It hurts to see the vitroil Americans have for one another these days. Reminds me a certain Bill Maher clip

 
Not that I'm well versed in the US Constitition, but the military may form a coup d'etat as a revolt against a government that fails to live up to the US Constitution. There is nothing legally preventing the military from doing something like that. At least not a law that I know of as it would have been referenced the last four years.
 
Read it the other day. Scary possibilities indeed. I hope every one of you here is not just posting your outrage here, but that each of you is also doing something materially to help defeat Trump, and just as important, elect a Democratic majority in the Senate.

If you don't have money to donate, give of your time and energy. State by state, county by county, and nationally, there are myriad "register to vote" and "get out the vote" and "get your mail in ballot" campaigns you can volunteer for.

If you don't have the time but can spare the money, give of it as generously as possibile to your best targeted campaign fund.

If you feel you have neither the money nor the time, either get the fuck off this forum and the net, which will free up some time, or cancel you fucking internet entirely, which will free up some money.

The following may sound overblown as a commentary on our present political situation to some.

It is not for me:

"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Trump and his ethically and morally compromised cadre of followers and enablers are spreading EVIL!

Don't just sit there typing. DO SOMETHING!!
 
"If the vote is close, then all this shit might happen..." I don't think it will be. Democratic turnout will be huge. 2018 was just a practice lap.
 
kage69 said:
I weep for my country. It hurts to see the vitroil Americans have for one another these days. Reminds me a certain Bill Maher clip

Click to expand...
Brilliant!

I don't always 100% agree with Mr. Bill Maher, but I deeply admire his often eloquent comic brilliance and the common sense, humanity and wisdom he brings to the positions he takes. He NEVER panders or equivocates or backtracks or weasels.

I deeply grateful he eventually survived cancel culture/deadly "patriotism" that nearly killed his career when he dared to say, in the days right after 9/11:

“We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly.”

You can say what you wish about the possibile rhetorical overreach of that statement, but it also contains the tiny kernel of an inconvenient truth.
 
Wide spread use of mail in voting is a substantial change to the election process in a great deal of the country. That's going to lead to accusations of abuse in any national election simply because it's new.
If Trump losses he'll claim fraud because he's Trump, making noise is what he does, and that claim will need to be looked at if there is any actual evidence of fraud. The problem that I see is the media using the most hyperbolic terms possible to generate ratings and clicks.

My issue with all of this is that it doesn't have to be this way. Our system's could be sterilized, the results of any election could be determined quickly and accurately beyond a reasonable doubt, and the media circus that's little more than a daytime soap opera could be relegated to the trash bin where it belongs.
 
I mean it's not just going to be Trump and the presidency, they will invalidate Senate races as well. The only solution is to split up the country.
 
Greenman said:
Wide spread use of mail in voting is a substantial change to the election process in a great deal of the country. That's going to lead to accusations of abuse in any national election simply because it's new.
If Trump losses he'll claim fraud because he's Trump, making noise is what he does, and that claim will need to be looked at if there is any actual evidence of fraud. The problem that I see is the media using the most hyperbolic terms possible to generate ratings and clicks.

My issue with all of this is that it doesn't have to be this way. Our system's could be sterilized, the results of any election could be determined quickly and accurately beyond a reasonable doubt, and the media circus that's little more than a daytime soap opera could be relegated to the trash bin where it belongs.
Click to expand...

Pooh-pooh it all you want, but I think it's perfectly obvious that Trump is angling to seize power if he can create the proper opportunity. Unless you have some other way to describe why he's trying to discredit the processes of honest Democracy. How does it serve him otherwise? it doesn't.
 
I don't believe the most overwrought predictions (it's not going to be a civil war), but I admit I am secretly looking forward to watching the drama from a safe distance (may well be lots of legal drama and constitutional chaos).

You've had your entertainment with the Brexit show, I'm hoping this is going to be every bit as farcical.
 
Jhhnn said:
Defeatism sux.
Click to expand...

I'm voting. I voted in the primary too. I've been donating to Biden and a senate race here and there. I debate right wingers online or point out their lies. It doesn't matter. To sum it up with one perfect example, I follow Joe Walsh - he's a former Tea Party congressman who supported Trump in 2016 but then realized that Trump has zero ethics, character or morality and now is a huge anti-Trumper. However most of his FB followers are still Trumpers. They are in full denial of reality. I see it on his page and Joe Walsh talks about it as well - if Trump loses, the race is a fraud and they will back him contesting it. The cop unions are already backing Trump and they will back him in this too is my guess - you can already see the cops are buddy buddy with armed white supremacist groups like the Proud Boys and the such, and the Supreme Court is going to throw it to Trump once they confirm this far-right 9th judge, which they will.
 
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Jhhnn said:
Pooh-pooh it all you want, but I think it's perfectly obvious that Trump is angling to seize power if he can create the proper opportunity. Unless you have some other way to describe why he's trying to discredit the processes of honest Democracy. How does it serve him otherwise? it doesn't.
Click to expand...
Alarmist hyperbole.
 
pmv said:
I don't believe the most overwrought predictions (it's not going to be a civil war), but I admit I am secretly looking forward to watching the drama from a safe distance (may well be lots of legal drama and constitutional chaos).

You've had your entertainment with the Brexit show, I'm hoping this is going to be every bit as farcical.
Click to expand...

If you think it's not going to affect you should democracy happen to effectively end after this US election, you're wrong. Everyone should be afraid.
 
Commodus said:
Yeah, it's going to be a mess even though the story by necessity is discussing "what ifs."

I don't think we'll get to the nightmare scenario where there are two or even three people who claim they should be sworn in, but it's easy to imagine a situation where Trump falsely claims to have won on election night, well before the votes have been calculated, only to lose as mail-in ballot counting wraps up in the days afterward.

What worries me: even if Biden wins in a blowout, where there's no ambiguity over the vote count, Trump will likely not admit that he lost. That's not to say he'll formally contest the results in that case, but that he'll claim the vote was rigged no matter what. And that could easily prompt violence from extremists.

At the least, a clear Biden win would still produce doom-and-gloom whining from Trumpists, the people who genuinely want Dear Leader to be dictator for life.
Click to expand...
I don't get the dictator for life thing. There are really Americans who want Trump to be permanent POTUS? Seriously? I haven't seen that anywhere but here in P&N, and no corroborating evidence of any kind, no links, no Twitter stuff, etc.

The Atlantic article I linked in the OP makes a clear case that Trump will never admit he was fairly defeated in the election, no matter what, just because of who he is, the nature of his personality disorder. He will/would claim it was rigged, that he actually would have won if this and that hadn't happened and he'll take that to his dying bed and never change his mind... maybe in a delirium he would, but it's doubtful.

His followers? Well, TBH, where I live they don't exist. There are people living 20 miles from me who are Trumpies, but in my town they either don't exist or don't dare come out of their closets.

I will say one thing, though. If Trump through machinations, intimidation, legal wrangles invalidating ballots, etc. etc. manages to steal the election the violence that will ensue will be an order of magnitude greater than the Trumpies will produce if Biden prevails.
 
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Jhhnn said:
"If the vote is close, then all this shit might happen..." I don't think it will be. Democratic turnout will be huge. 2018 was just a practice lap.
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Oh, for sure, it's all I want for Christmas, would warm my heart! It would be like sunshiny day after 200 days of gloomy skies. And I'll say it again, if it happens, it's the women (and blacks) who save us. Especially the blacks are going to landslide for Biden, the women will lean heavily for Biden. The men? Well there are good and great men, but evidently too many creepy ones.
 
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woolfe9998 said:
If you think it's not going to affect you should democracy happen to effectively end after this US election, you're wrong. Everyone should be afraid.
Click to expand...

I just don't believe that's a likely outcome. Seems very possible it will be a horrible mess, with lots of dramatic plot-twists (hopefully ending with a complete humiliation for the Narcissist-in-chief), but I can't see it being the 'end of democracy'. The death of US democracy is an ongoing and very drawn-out process (that has been underway for a long time). It's not going to be a single event.

I know I really shouldn't be savouring the entertainment possibilities because the US being what it is (and in particular, the US right being what it is) there may well be isolated incidents of violence as part of the aftermath and innocent people may suffer the consequences.
 
Greenman said:
Wide spread use of mail in voting is a substantial change to the election process in a great deal of the country. That's going to lead to accusations of abuse in any national election simply because it's new.
If Trump losses he'll claim fraud because he's Trump, making noise is what he does, and that claim will need to be looked at if there is any actual evidence of fraud. The problem that I see is the media using the most hyperbolic terms possible to generate ratings and clicks.

My issue with all of this is that it doesn't have to be this way. Our system's could be sterilized, the results of any election could be determined quickly and accurately beyond a reasonable doubt, and the media circus that's little more than a daytime soap opera could be relegated to the trash bin where it belongs.
Click to expand...

No. It's not. Neither do any other presidents actively sabotage the post office running up to an election.
 
pmv said:
I just don't believe that's a likely outcome. Seems very possible it will be a horrible mess, with lots of dramatic plot-twists (hopefully ending with a complete humiliation for the Narcissist-in-chief), but I can't see it being the 'end of democracy'. The death of US democracy is an ongoing and very drawn-out process (that has been underway for a long time). It's not going to be a single event.

I know I really shouldn't be savouring the entertainment possibilities because the US being what it is (and in particular, the US right being what it is) there may well be isolated incidents of violence as part of the aftermath and innocent people may suffer the consequences.
Click to expand...
Being a life-long optimist I certainly want to agree with you. I wish I could say I am as sure as you, but not being able to say so doesn't mean you're wrong whatsoever.
 
Regardless of the outcome, the 30 - 40% that are hardcore trumpanzees are going to loose their shit, and there will be violence in the streets like we haven't seen since the 60's.
 
I am becoming increasing concerned about the write in ballot, but just the opposite of what Trump is saying. My concern is that the ballots will not be sent out, returned, and counted on time. I live in Minnesota, which is one of the better run states. My wife and I both requested mail in ballots. They were supposed to have been sent out Sep 18, and they still have not arrived. I can only imagine what the delay will be like in the red, Trump leaning states. Early in person voting has already started, and I am seriously considering doing this and not waiting for the mail in ballot.
 
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