well.. how much of that is really the college causing the problem or the students being young immature people who do not grasp what they're supposed to be doing? i dont think we can place the blame solely on the college.
Spikesoldier
Diamond Member
- Oct 15, 2001
- 6,766
- 0
- 0
You know that comparing China and India to the US is really like comparing apples and oranges.
yes, the education system in the US is really the rotten apple.
china and india have extremely competitive, standardized, nationwide tests to select the best possible academic candidates. this is THE test (you only get one shot at it) if you want to get into school. there is no alternative, and your class rank, etc. doesnt really mean shit. people like to suicide themselves after finding out they fucked up the test and will be doing fail jobs for the rest of their lives.
the importance and cultural significance of this test is so much that in china, streets becomes silent on the day of test-taking, as if it were a ghost town, but people are working without making noise while the students take the test.
im guessing that china and india also give full rides to the cream of the nationwide academic crop they picked from their tests. this way, your brightest scholars cant be 'left behind' due to economic reasons.
ever wonder why china's universities are so good at cyber warfare? because since the young talent are harvested at age 17-18 and they have been applying their education with no barriers. I.e. the cost of attending top tier schools, or academic resources, because they are backed by the state.
now now, i know that there are ways you can get a free ride in the US, but it seems like their system gives way more free rides to pupils than it does here.
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china and india have a lot of poverty, this creates an enormous fear of poverty and hunger to succeed. we dont have the same hunger, we feel we are owed our way thru life. this is probably inevitable for most superpower type countries, but for every pessimist who succeeds through negative emotions, there seems to be the same amount of optimists that succeed through positive emotions.
what tends to happen in these comparisons is people take the best and brightest of other countries and compare them to the average of america. we will be in large danger if our best and brightest fail to compare with the best and brightest of others.
what tends to happen in these comparisons is people take the best and brightest of other countries and compare them to the average of america. we will be in large danger if our best and brightest fail to compare with the best and brightest of others.
Its interesting how one person will spend 10 minutes in a grocery aisle comparing the prices of cereal, but not give much thought at all to cost/benefit of the college they are going to. Its likely the largest purchase they'll ever make besides a house (or some cars perhaps) and yet it seems like many people don't give it much thought at all.
The good news is, most in-state universities are quite reasonably priced and there are good ones out there. Its probably wise for most people to go to a state university or a community college for at least the first 2 or so years of college and then either transfer to a more relevant university, or just finish up.
I'm sure there are nice statistics out there, but I'd wager that a large percentage of students change their major after the first year or two of going to school, so why not test the waters at a inexpensive place. And then later, if you find a career path that you'll enjoy and have a plan, then look into college that offers a good degree in that field.
The good news is, most in-state universities are quite reasonably priced and there are good ones out there. Its probably wise for most people to go to a state university or a community college for at least the first 2 or so years of college and then either transfer to a more relevant university, or just finish up.
I'm sure there are nice statistics out there, but I'd wager that a large percentage of students change their major after the first year or two of going to school, so why not test the waters at a inexpensive place. And then later, if you find a career path that you'll enjoy and have a plan, then look into college that offers a good degree in that field.
Any professor worth his salt (which will be most tenured professors at a serious institution) more than pay for themselves and their lab space with the grant money they bring in to the university.
To be honest, a professor exists to further the field they work in, and teaching is only a part of that (and teaching undergraduates is a small part of that). I think it's absurd how high tuition is, but that money doesn't get spent of professors, your tax money does.
Also, it should be noted that a professor in a technical field (at least in Engineering) could be making significantly more money for significantly less work (and MUCH less bullshit) if he chose to be in industry.
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PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,765
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Yeah, I don't really see the cost actually being the professors. At least not the increased cost. It seems that colleges compete for students by building fancy buildings on campus...not by which one overpays their professors the most. Ironically, most of these buildings are probably one of the worse investments a school could make if its goal is to improve the education they offer. However, I believe they probably are a good investment in that they convince students to go there. (who might not even be particularly concerned with the education quality question, honestly)
Beev
Diamond Member
- Apr 20, 2006
- 7,775
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My stance on college is well known 
. Well, probably not actually...
College is a scam. There are very few benefits that make it worth the time or money (access to special equipment and labs, for one). Classroom learning as a whole is ridiculously useless to begin with. Same for test taking.
A lot of careers don't even require a degree anymore, they just want proof that you can do the work. To be a financial adviser all you need to do is get licenses. To be a programmer you just need to prove you can write code. To be a computer animator, or any kind of artist really, you just need a portfolio proving you can do it. That's it. Careers that you NEED a degree for are on their way out, and rightly so.
I know four people personally that have degrees that they aren't using. One is a mid-level retail employee, one works a random desk job, and the other two are Gamestop store managers (their degrees were not management).
College is a fucking joke and waste of time.
. Well, probably not actually...College is a scam. There are very few benefits that make it worth the time or money (access to special equipment and labs, for one). Classroom learning as a whole is ridiculously useless to begin with. Same for test taking.
A lot of careers don't even require a degree anymore, they just want proof that you can do the work. To be a financial adviser all you need to do is get licenses. To be a programmer you just need to prove you can write code. To be a computer animator, or any kind of artist really, you just need a portfolio proving you can do it. That's it. Careers that you NEED a degree for are on their way out, and rightly so.
I know four people personally that have degrees that they aren't using. One is a mid-level retail employee, one works a random desk job, and the other two are Gamestop store managers (their degrees were not management
).College is a fucking joke and waste of time.
Education opens a door. It is up to you to walk through it.
Of course education opens a door, but this is about higher education. You know universities and such, not your grandpa teaching you how to weld to fix his broken ass tractor. I've worked with Mexican's who can't speak a word of English and have to have a helper who can translate for him make 55hr + whatever they were paying for his helper/translator. This guy wasn't that old either, late 40's early 50's.
Hell when I joined up with my previous union the contractor that picked me up was paying me 17.10 an hour, plus I got a pension & a separate annuity, plus I got amazing health benefits, plus I got to make a shitload of money working over time. Physically demanding sure, but the exercise was good and it wasn't just dumb grunt work. We did a lot of field fab work, field machining, pump/turbine & motor alignment, crane work, welding, did some shop machining, rebuilt compressors and turbines. Heh although it wasn't all like that either, I spent days straight behind a shovel because a conveyor belt broke or a roller crapped out and we had to get all spilt coke out of the way so we could fix it and they could sell or use the stuff. Or all the other dangerous crap I had to work around and me having 3 brushes with death.
Point is, if people want to challenge themselves intellectually they can and they probably should, but for most they don't need that shit. 4 years of apprenticeship would go a lot further than 4 years in a classroom for most people and things I would tend to believe.
- Oct 30, 2000
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As a lecturer I am on the bottom of the instructor payscale but to give you a number, I am paid roughly 4% of the tuition revenue the course I teach generates ($6,000 out of about $160,000.)
PingSpike linked that on the last page. My entirely unscientific perception of my students is that about 1 in 5 shouldn't be in college, and since I'm at a better than average institution, their finding that half of college students learn very little their first two years is not surprising to me.
Assuming you have no formal college education and that your professional experience is limited to one field, you really have no place judging whether other areas of employment/productivity legitimately require degrees. Simply stating 'all you need is a license' is insufficient - how do you acquire the license? Good Will Hunting is a movie because the story is remarkable, not typical.
child of wonder
Diamond Member
- Aug 31, 2006
- 8,307
- 176
- 106
I studied a lot of System Administration in school as well and was only 2 classes away from getting a second AAS in Sys Admin. After getting my AAS in Network Admin I received a job as a Linux Sys Admin (had been doing it as a small time consultant for 2 years at that point) and was soon introduced to VMware. Have enjoyed working with it ever since and have made it a focus of mine.
Make a method that will allow people to remove student loan debt via bankruptcy and a lot of issues clear up.
I don't know exactly how to work it but something along the lines of if five years after granting the degree you will not be able to pay off the entire principal within 20 years with X% of your income you are eligible to declare bankruptcy. In addition to the credit impact of bankruptcy you lose the degree and the school eats the bill if it was a federal loan (the bank eats it on private).
You want to go to a private school at $40k/year to study literature, go ahead. But getting a loan to do that should be difficult.
But that idea has a host of issues.
It just seems the biggest issue is that you make a decision that will financially burden you for 30 years when you are not nearly qualified to make that kind of decision.
I don't know exactly how to work it but something along the lines of if five years after granting the degree you will not be able to pay off the entire principal within 20 years with X% of your income you are eligible to declare bankruptcy. In addition to the credit impact of bankruptcy you lose the degree and the school eats the bill if it was a federal loan (the bank eats it on private).
You want to go to a private school at $40k/year to study literature, go ahead. But getting a loan to do that should be difficult.
But that idea has a host of issues.
It just seems the biggest issue is that you make a decision that will financially burden you for 30 years when you are not nearly qualified to make that kind of decision.
roguerower
Diamond Member
- Nov 18, 2004
- 4,563
- 0
- 76
While I would agree with you on a couple of issues, school has definitely helped me in my field thus far.
1. It has supplied a steady and consistent base of knowledge that has allowed me to build on as I experience more and more in the field.
2. It has helped develop critical thinking when dealing with problems inherent to the industry.
3. It has helped me to better develop time management.
4. It has helped develop conflict management when dealing with groups that can grow hostile because not everyone agrees.
I don't think it was a waste. I know there were times I wanted to pull my hair out because of the professors and their ridiculous req'm, but I don't think it was a waste.
silverpig
Lifer
- Jul 29, 2001
- 27,703
- 12
- 81
silverpig goes back in time 2 years with new law
silverpig takes out big loan for MBA
silverpig declares bankruptcy
silverpig marries wife
silverpig makes good money with MBA to pay off mortgage in wife's name
...
profit
There was a reason the legislation about bankruptcy comes in regarding student debt. It was too easy to get out of student loans. Even for a single person, you get out of your loans and you've got a bankruptcy on your record until you're 30. During that time you front $2k for a collateralized CC and you just rent.
Bankruptcy exists for other things because usually the bank can take the car or house you own. Yeah they lose out, but at least there's something.
If the government eats your student loan, maybe you should have to forfeit your degree?
Losing your degree was part of what I laid out. It doesn't remove all of the holes but it removes at least one.
Also by the rules I laid out you'd have to be making small enough amount of money over 5 years to not be able to pay off the principal in 20 years by X% of your income.
Your plan would be get degree, don't work with it for five years, declare bankruptcy, lose degree and profit.
Point being a way out from under that debt that places some risk on the lender would reel in some (but not all) of the cost issues.
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bigdog1218
Golden Member
- Mar 7, 2001
- 1,674
- 2
- 0
My stance on college is well known
College is a scam. There are very few benefits that make it worth the time or money (access to special equipment and labs, for one). Classroom learning as a whole is ridiculously useless to begin with. Same for test taking.
A lot of careers don't even require a degree anymore, they just want proof that you can do the work. To be a financial adviser all you need to do is get licenses. To be a programmer you just need to prove you can write code. To be a computer animator, or any kind of artist really, you just need a portfolio proving you can do it. That's it. Careers that you NEED a degree for are on their way out, and rightly so.
I know four people personally that have degrees that they aren't using. One is a mid-level retail employee, one works a random desk job, and the other two are Gamestop store managers (their degrees were not management
College is a fucking joke and waste of time.
Sorry to rain on your little hate parade but the vast majority of careers require higher degrees than they did 20, 30 years ago. Which is bullshit in my opinion, but that's just the way it is.
The college learning experience may be a waste of time, and in the end it's just a piece of paper, but your post is completely out of touch with reality. Go get a job at Goldman Sachs, or Google or Pixar tomorrow, it should be cake, you don't even need a degree.
Hey Bill Gates has a great career without a degree, anyone can do it. Don't worry no job will require a degree in the future. Just go to the interview, at any age because degrees don't matter so why wait until you graduate high school, and just show them your macaroni Christmas tree and bam, you're now creating the next animated movie for Pixar.
My old job used to hire people straight out of high school 30 years ago and if people wanted to go to school they could. Some would go to school and get their BA, some their BS, whatever they wanted it wasn't an issue. I got lucky to get hired as a contractor with a BS because of the work I did as an undergrad. MS minimum for new contractors, PhD minimum for full time employees was the rule set a little after I was hired. You want a job with no degree, the cafeteria is hiring.
sourceninja
Diamond Member
- Mar 8, 2005
- 8,805
- 65
- 91
I'm taking classes now working towards the degree my employer wants me to have. I just finished my homework. They actually asked this question: "On a enhanced keyboard, how many windows keys are present?"
That is fucking college level?? What a fucking waste of my employers money.
That is fucking college level?? What a fucking waste of my employers money.
TecHNooB
Diamond Member
- Sep 10, 2005
- 7,458
- 1
- 76
I think most employers prefer sending ppl to a local cc or getting an online degree. Is this what you're doing? If so, you know why it's a joke
College isn't completely useless. I went to a state school and got a reasonably useful degree, then went to a graduate school and got a degree that's a lot more useful.
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