Is higher education a farce, a -EV decision for most?

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I expect college prices are going to come down pretty hard soon.

College costs are so high for many reasons, fancy new dorms and buildings ALL THE TIME, over paid tenured profs who take 2 semesters off from teaching to do BS research, etc...

The student aid credit market is tightening up, the job market sucks, and students are becoming better consumers, they're not going to subsidize these bloated schools any more.

Basically the law of supply and demand has been absent from higher education for about 20 years now, with the bad job market and tightening credit, there's going to be a huge correction coming.

I admire your dream but, it just ain't so. First, higher education has no relationship to the sale of goods and services. Second, every school and parent in the country keeps teaching kids that the ONLY way to get ahead is to go to college. Oh, schools will downsize and perhaps 'non essentials' like education, philosophy, history and, English may get de-emphasized but, tuition is only going one direction. Up!

 

[Hacp]

I expect college prices are going to come down pretty hard soon.

College costs are so high for many reasons, fancy new dorms and buildings ALL THE TIME, over paid tenured profs who take 2 semesters off from teaching to do BS research, etc...

The student aid credit market is tightening up, the job market sucks, and students are becoming better consumers, they're not going to subsidize these bloated schools any more.

Basically the law of supply and demand has been absent from higher education for about 20 years now, with the bad job market and tightening credit, there's going to be a huge correction coming.

Its called Federal loans.

 

[gophins72]

At a previous job my manager had almost 20 years of Networking experience, CCNA, CCNP, etc. but no degree. He was turned down for a job, despite being the perfect candidate, because he didn't have a bachelor's degree. Eventually, the hiring manager got a CEO override to bring him on board.

they should make GED type of awards for bachelor's degree. people basically treat college as an extension of high school now anyways

 

[KillerCharlie]

Only get a degree that's useful. If you're that much in debt you're doing something wrong. Go to a cheaper school and get scholarships.

If you're paying for any post-graduate schooling, you're absolutely stupid.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

If you're paying for any post-graduate schooling, you're absolutely stupid.

Do you have any post-graduate education?

 

[roguerower]

Why are you at a university?

At first I wanted to be a USMC officer. Transferred to Building Construction and ended up taking some time off from ROTC to figure out my life. Loved my new major and ended up getting internship after internship and then a job.

Why are you at this university?

At first I had a full ride ROTC offer. Then after I left ROTC I stayed because of the Corps of Cadets, my friends, and the program I was in was one of the top 10 in the country.

Why are you in this major?

I didn't want to be stuck in a cubicle for the rest of my life. I want to be able to go home at the end of the day knowing that what I did today helped to create something that will last for the next 25-50 years. I want to leave each job knowing that the people who inhabit that building for the next 25-50 years will do so because of things I did today.

Answered

I'm more interested in a job/career that keeps me thinking than one that makes buckets of money.

Which is why I chose my major. I get to think on a daily basis, get to deal with new and unique problems on a daily basis, and I get to do something I love every day.

I think that's an incredibly ignorant statement. I do not know anyone with a BA who is unemployed. Do BAs earn less than BSs? Sure, but again, there's more to life than money.

My perception must be skewed then. I went to school and was in the Corps of Cadets for 4 years. The vast majority (80&#37 of my fellow cadets eventually commissioned into the military. Out of my circle of 7, only 3 did, the other 4 of us went the civvie track. I'm the only one to have a job out of college and graduated with a B- average with a BS in Building Construction. The other three all graduated with B+ or greater averages with a BA in Political Science. The majority of people who I saw graduating with BAs ended up in jobs that had NOTHING to do with their majors.

Maybe what I should have said is that I think most people who graduate with BAs end up in careers completely different from what they studied. I don't have your insight into the education system (as you stated, you are a prof) but in my limited experience, this is what I saw.

 

[mcmilljb]

I think states should start rationing scholarship/funds for some programs to curb the abuse. Look at programs with high drop outs/withdrawals and even job placement rates. Why pay so much money into a program where students are not actively getting jobs in that field? You are really just wasting the tax payer's money. Also look programs which have high importance for the state's economy and needs (an example of need is doctors) and put more money into getting people into them. I believe most states have commissions on higher education which have to approve any program before it can even be accredited by the accrediting agencies. They need to step up and start eliminating some waste.

Another step is reducing admission to the large public colleges. They keep trying to grow them larger so they can get more money without hiring more teachers. Take advantage of the smaller community colleges available. If you can offer someone a chance to live at home to save money, students will do that especially with rising tuition costs. Plus they are cheaper, and most have access to a wide pool of talented teachers (especially since some are out of jobs). No one cares where you took biology 101 or english 101. They just want you to pass the class with a good grade and actually be competent after doing so. Also community colleges could offer improve the 4 year schools by weeding out people earlier and cheaper. Plus if you actually make the community colleges offer quality classes, then you can have them help people make better choices about which programs to pursue further.

However this requires a strong commitment from legislators, the governor, and government agencies to put the students and the state ahead of individuals that are more interested in extracting money through the system. I admit it's only my opinion, but I think a lot more can be done at the state level to correct problems/abuses of our higher education system.

 

[mcmilljb]

Do you have any post-graduate education?

I think he means "paying for" instead of being "paid to do" post-graduate education. Most grad students I ever met were not paying much for or at all depending on the field.

Also maybe he means graduate work instead of post-graduate. I couldn't imagine someone not getting paid a good chunk of change to do post-graduate education considering there can be nice fellowships.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Maybe what I should have said is that I think most people who graduate with BAs end up in careers completely different from what they studied. I don't have your insight into the education system (as you stated, you are a prof) but in my limited experience, this is what I saw.

Interesting answers. They're quite different from what I usually read as you're older than the typical undergrad. I'm not a professor, just a dissertator/lecturer.

Again, I keep reading posts that consider money and careers. I was a history minor; those courses had little relevance to what I study now (evolutionary anthropology), but I still find history interesting and enjoy reading about it, visiting historical landmarks, etc.; i.e. those history courses do not earn me money but they are valuable to me. Most of my friends with BAs (who don't also hold advanced degrees) don't work in a field directly related to their major, but it's not as if that knowledge and training ceases to exist and be useful to them because of that.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

I think he means "paying for" instead of being "paid to do" post-graduate education. Most grad students I ever met were not paying much for or at all depending on the field.

Also maybe he means graduate work instead of post-graduate. I couldn't imagine someone not getting paid a good chunk of change to do post-graduate education considering there can be nice fellowships.

Post-graduate education includes not only graduate school but also medical school, law school, business school, and others. Almost all of those folks pay for their MDs, JDs, and MBAs. Are they stupid? A friend of mine is finishing his English PhD with $5,000 in student loan debt because he took an unpaid internship one summer. Is he stupid? These ridiculous blanket generalizations irritate me.

 

[mcmilljb]

Interesting answers. They're quite different from what I usually read as you're older than the typical undergrad. I'm not a professor, just a dissertator/lecturer.

Again, I keep reading posts that consider money and careers. I was a history minor; those courses had little relevance to what I study now (evolutionary anthropology), but I still find history interesting and enjoy reading about it, visiting historical landmarks, etc.; i.e. those history courses do not earn me money but they are valuable to me. Most of my friends with BAs (who don't also hold advanced degrees) don't work in a field directly related to their major, but it's not as if that knowledge and training ceases to exist and be useful to them because of that.

I think that is why they have minors. You can either pursue something that could relate to major like a math student studying finance or computer science. Otherwise you can pursue something that is your passion. My major did not allow for a minor, however I took some extra courses. I enjoyed music so I did some performance groups so playing steel drums and west african drums. It was a great experience.

 

[gophins72]

most of the BA's i've known are extremely good critical thinkers, much better than the plug-in-chug please spoon-feed me an equation or heuristic BS degrees i've met. but i think i'm comparing the best of best BA with the average BS degree holder.

a lot of the doctorate degrees in the sciences dont go on to very rewarding careers. government research programs used to be somewhat of a safehaven, but those are being cut back and the competition for PhD research jobs and professorships is pretty intense.

 

[mcmilljb]

Post-graduate education includes not only graduate school but also medical school, law school, business school, and others. Almost all of those folks pay for their MDs, JDs, and MBAs. Are they stupid? A friend of mine is finishing his English PhD with $5,000 in student loan debt because he took an unpaid internship one summer. Is he stupid? These ridiculous blanket generalizations irritate me.

MD and JD are a special case. I would consider them Professional Education rather than post-graduate school. They're not even terminal degrees or require graduate education as a prerequisite. No they're not stupid. I was even trying to figure out what he was arguing.

By the way, we see post-graduate as different. I see post graduate as after completing graduate level education such a MS/MA or PhD. You see it as any thing after undergraduate.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

MD and JD are a special case. I would consider them Professional Education rather than post-graduate school. They're not even terminal degrees or require graduate education as a prerequisite. No they're not stupid. I was even trying to figure out what he was arguing.

By the way, we see post-graduate as different. I see post graduate as after completing graduate level education such a MS/MA or PhD. You see it as any thing after undergraduate.

When you finish your BS/BA, you are a graduate. Any formal education you take beyond that is post-graduate education. Link. There is no formal education beyond a PhD. Thankfully.

 

[IGBT]

Colleges charge what they want because they can, and they dont have to justify the costs.

or guarantee an outcome or career.

 

[Exterous]

just do well in high school and you'll never have to pay a dime for college. i got bachelors and masters degrees for free.

Unless you are a middle class white male

College costs are so high for many reasons, fancy new dorms and buildings ALL THE TIME, over paid tenured profs who take 2 semesters off from teaching to do BS research, etc...

You may be surprised how few professors are tenured. For the department I got my degree from it was around 30%

I can only offer this insight from the university I worked at but we spent alot of money bringing buildings up to code when they needed to be renovated due to the age of the buildings and constantly changing code.

Hell - we spent over $5 million dollars because the height to be considered a high rise building (and therefore expanded code requirements) was lowered 6 feet and we only had to re-due to buildings we were currently working on. Much (much) more will need to be spent on bringing up the other buildings that were not being renovated at that time

I do agree that Universities are caught in a 'feature' war for both students and professors. If other Universities are expanding, remodeling to attract talent you have to do the same or you risk losing your student base and reputation

 

[Ayrahvon]

Interesting answers. They're quite different from what I usually read as you're older than the typical undergrad. I'm not a professor, just a dissertator/lecturer.

Again, I keep reading posts that consider money and careers. I was a history minor; those courses had little relevance to what I study now (evolutionary anthropology), but I still find history interesting and enjoy reading about it, visiting historical landmarks, etc.; i.e. those history courses do not earn me money but they are valuable to me. Most of my friends with BAs (who don't also hold advanced degrees) don't work in a field directly related to their major, but it's not as if that knowledge and training ceases to exist and be useful to them because of that.

Exactly. Fields like anthropology (be it social, evolutionary, forensic, ect...) may not always have direct application to many jobs, but the theories behind the education will really qualify the students for a multitude of jobs in the government, non-profits, and private sector.

I am doing post-grad work myself in social anthropology, largely because the job market was not what I would have liked upon finishing my BA. I had 0 debt coming out of my undergraduate, and I will have about $16k of debt when I finish my MA (considerably more if I continue my research into a PhD but that's by the by).

Am I doing post-grad research purely to find a better job? Hell no! I see education's value as something far more than just a larger paycheck afterwards. The whole point of continuing education beyond a BA is to further your knowledge within your specified field and to gain new experiences you wouldn't have otherwise. While this usually does come with a financial benefit within your career, I do not think the focus of education should ever be financial gain.

I see this as a true issue with college education now. There is a divide between what the school is actually providing, and what the general populace thinks it should be providing. This is reflected in both the amount of students currently attending such schools, and their expectations of what their life will be like when they finish.

 

[TridenT]

does anyone know how other countries are faring as far as higher education is concerned? are school costs relatively high in countries like China or India? do their governments subsidize loans like ours?

You know that comparing China and India to the US is really like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[highland145]

It's an awful lot to expect an 18 year old to know what they want out of life and to know the most efficient way to get that!

I agree but it hasn't been that many years (in the grand scheme of our country) where college was an honor/privileged to be able to attend. When/if kids graduated high school they went to work at any job that was available. It didn't matter if they liked it or not. I would say people my age and younger have had it pretty good, as a whole, with being able to choose career paths and have many more opportunities available for "do overs." Or this could be looked at as the pussification of America when, at 25, it's somewhat acceptable to still be plodding along. And, yes, I wasted 4 years and a bunch of $$ because I was too immature to realize the opportunity that had been given to me.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

most of the BA's i've known are extremely good critical thinkers, much better than the plug-in-chug please spoon-feed me an equation or heuristic BS degrees i've met. but i think i'm comparing the best of best BA with the average BS degree holder.

You must not know many engineers or scientists.

 

[PingSpike]

I expect college prices are going to come down pretty hard soon.

College costs are so high for many reasons, fancy new dorms and buildings ALL THE TIME, over paid tenured profs who take 2 semesters off from teaching to do BS research, etc...

The student aid credit market is tightening up, the job market sucks, and students are becoming better consumers, they're not going to subsidize these bloated schools any more.

Basically the law of supply and demand has been absent from higher education for about 20 years now, with the bad job market and tightening credit, there's going to be a huge correction coming.

The law of supply and demand is not particularly relevant when the only way to escape the loans is to pay them or die. If people could default on the loans you'd see things tighten up, but as it stands now its a good business to be in because you'll probably get the money sooner or later.

 

[PingSpike]

I think many posters in this thread simply don't understand that for many people, pursuing what they enjoy is worth paying student loans for 20+ years. I think it's wiser to consider whether a higher ed degree will facilitate a happier life, however you define happiness.

I'll give you that, but what about the excellent point you made? That an 18 year old lacks the experience and judgment to make such a large decision correctly. I don't think many kids truly grasp the cost of their decisions at this point. Its easy to say you don't care about making some money at first, but priorities change when you want to start a family or buy a home. I know when I was 18 I certainly didn't even have the idea of buying a home or having a baby on my radar.

If people go in to the process understanding the long term cost of their decisions, that is one thing. But I never got the feeling most of my classmates thought about it much at all. I didn't think about it much myself.

My dad kind of farted around in college and switched majors a few times, had a fun time and got a degree in something fairly useful (after 5+ years LOL)...then ended up running his own business after working a number of different jobs. But college was pretty cheap for him, the financial cost of not being focused was insignificant. That is a luxury today's generation doesn't have. The cost can be so high that it almost has to pay off big on the other side or you've totally hamstrung your life.

 

[PingSpike]

When you finish your BS/BA, you are a graduate. Any formal education you take beyond that is post-graduate education. Link. There is no formal education beyond a PhD. Thankfully.

Sounds like a business opportunity for an educational institution!

 

[gophins72]

You must not know many engineers or scientists.

i know many average ones. miss the trees for the forest for the most part, plug in chug.

 

[PingSpike]

Report: First two years of college show small gains

Nearly half of the nation's undergraduates show almost no gains in learning in their first two years of college, in large part because colleges don't make academics a priority, a new report shows.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-01-18-littlelearning18_ST_N.htm