is Hamas a terrorist organization?

[nickqt]

The 2017 charter is no better, Israel still is not a thing, nor will they ultimately accept anything short of from the river to the sea...

Who has the actual power in the relationship, Israel or Palestinians/HAMAS?

Which one is more likely to wipe out the other?

This is the answer I'm interested in hearing, because it's obvious, unless, well, you have an agenda to argue.

 

[Jhhnn]

Hamas doesn't have to be fighting any battle at all. Israel did not go to war with the Pals ~2000. That started because organizations like Hamas do not believe in a 2-state solution and prefer war instead. Saying that a group who choses war over a peace deal which would have created a Palestinian state is "fighting the only battle they can" is incredibly dishonest.

As if our lying Israeli friends have ever believed in a two state solution. They want it all, and have been taking more of it for decades. To claim otherwise is to deny the facts on the ground.

 

[Jaskalas]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/hamas-haniyeh-vows-to-destabilize-jerusalem-thanks-iran-for-support-668791

Hamas' Haniyeh vows to destabilize Jerusalem, thanks Iran for support

Hamas political chief Ismail Haniyeh suggested that Hamas' current objective is to continue fuelling the ongoing violence in Jerusalem, just hours after the ceasefire came into effect.​

​

Is this report accurate? I don't have a transcript of his words.

 

[Jhhnn]

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/hamas-haniyeh-vows-to-destabilize-jerusalem-thanks-iran-for-support-668791

Hamas' Haniyeh vows to destabilize Jerusalem, thanks Iran for support

Hamas political chief Ismail Haniyeh suggested that Hamas' current objective is to continue fuelling the ongoing violence in Jerusalem, just hours after the ceasefire came into effect.​

​

Is this report accurate? I don't have a transcript of his words.

So dishonest. What's fueling instability is ongoing Israeli effort to evict honest Palestinian residents of Jerusalem from their homes. When Jerusalem Pals protested at the Temple of the Rock, the Israelis went thug on them & the Gazans fired off some homemade rockets. The IDF then engaged in more thuggery. Too simple, I'm sure.

 

[IronWing]

Don't forget that within hours of the cease fire, the Israeli state again attacked Palestinians celebrating the cease fire.

 

[ivwshane]

Anyone know who or what IDF answers to? What does oversight consist of? Has it’s actions ever been questioned by any oversight committee or government entity?

 

[Jaskalas]

Claiming victory while sitting in Qatar, Hamas chief says ‘we destroyed project of coexistence with Israel’
Anyone care to dispute if those words are real?

Such a statement essentially claims they bombed Israel so that you would condemn Israel for retaliating.
Are you playing right into the violent and genocidal terrorist's hands?
They aim for blood, would you give them strength?

 

[IronWing]

Claiming victory while sitting in Qatar, Hamas chief says ‘we destroyed project of coexistence with Israel’
Anyone care to dispute if those words are real?

Such a statement essentially claims they bombed Israel so that you would condemn Israel for retaliating.
Are you playing right into the violent and genocidal terrorist's hands?
They aim for blood, would you give them strength?

Israel initiated this round of violence so your questions are dismissed.

 

[rommelrommel]

Who has the actual power in the relationship, Israel or Palestinians/HAMAS?

Which one is more likely to wipe out the other?

This is the answer I'm interested in hearing, because it's obvious, unless, well, you have an agenda to argue.

Advocating genocide is fine if you’re not in a position to do it yet, okay.

Israel is absolutely more powerful, the settlements are absolutely wrong, and they should abandon them and fall back to the 1967 borders. Without world intervention, I think Israel will probably steal about 80-90% of the West Bank given enough time.

Hamas is the fuel that keeps the hard liners in power in Israel. A real peace would be the end of both. I’m not going to be an apologist for them just because they claim to represent the aggrieved party.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Advocating genocide is fine if you’re not in a position to do it yet, okay.

Israel is absolutely more powerful, the settlements are absolutely wrong, and they should abandon them and fall back to the 1967 borders. Without world intervention, I think Israel will probably steal about 80-90% of the West Bank given enough time.

Hamas is the fuel that keeps the hard liners in power in Israel. A real peace would be the end of both. I’m not going to be an apologist for them just because they claim to represent the aggrieved party.

That argument fucking sucks. You're basically saying that they're subjugating Palestinians because they should do something about Hamas, like Palestinians have any ability to fucking do anything about a militant organization that's terrorizing them as well, and that they're being demonized for.

Also, fuck off with your bullshit hyperbole. I don't see anyone asking you to be an apologist for Hamas so you can eat a kosher dick and STFU with that crap. Saying that Israel should stop subjugating Palestinians is not a tacit approval of Hamas. Only fucking assholes frame arguments like that, and the fact that you very clearly fucking know it shows how full of shit your argument actually is.

 

[Jhhnn]

Claiming victory while sitting in Qatar, Hamas chief says ‘we destroyed project of coexistence with Israel’
Anyone care to dispute if those words are real?

Such a statement essentially claims they bombed Israel so that you would condemn Israel for retaliating.
Are you playing right into the violent and genocidal terrorist's hands?
They aim for blood, would you give them strength?

That's completely ridiculous. The Gazans fired rockets in response to Israeli actions in Jerusalem.

 

[blankslate]

Using densely populated areas as launch sites, indiscriminately bombing Israeli civilians. Hamas commits war crimes all the time.

The Hamas "charter" as it were, is for explicit genocide against Israel. To purge Muslim lands.

We are supposed to feel sorry for them because they have limited firepower, because their stated goal of genocide cannot be readily achieved?

Just because one side in a conflict is a bad actor it doesn't mean their opponent is automatically totally an above board good actor....


______

 

[rommelrommel]

That argument fucking sucks. You're basically saying that they're subjugating Palestinians because they should do something about Hamas, like Palestinians have any ability to fucking do anything about a militant organization that's terrorizing them as well, and that they're being demonized for.

Also, fuck off with your bullshit hyperbole. I don't see anyone asking you to be an apologist for Hamas so you can eat a kosher dick and STFU with that crap. Saying that Israel should stop subjugating Palestinians is not a tacit approval of Hamas. Only fucking assholes frame arguments like that, and the fact that you very clearly fucking know it shows how full of shit your argument actually is.

I see your reading comprehension could use some work.

I fucking well said Israel is stealing land and that they should reverse it immediately. I didn’t put any conditions on that.

I am saying that Hamas acting as they do enables hard liners to keep in power because it fucking well does. Bibi was pretty close to getting turfed and the second Hamas started with the rockets the political gravity shifted back to the hard liners. Fucking Hamas themselves appear to be claiming that they sabotaged any possible peace.

I said Hamas purports to represent the people because they don’t actually, I don’t actually expect people in the West Bank to magically invade Gaza and toss Hamas, although Hamas collapsing might be the best thing that could happen.
And yeah, I feel some people give Hamas a very light ride because they believe in the Palestinian cause. Hamas is a fucking awful and evil organisation that has attached itself to a justified cause.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Lots happened between Hamas's founding in 1987 during the intifada and the current century. It's understandable how a bunch of guys might use fiery language in forming a group that came about in response to dudes pissed off at Israel using live rounds on protestors. Protests over Israel occupation and heavy handed bullshit during the 80's.
The Charter was updated in 2017

Hamas in 2017: The document in full

Hamas explains general principles and objectives in 42-article document

www.middleeasteye.net

If you are going to post a charter, at least post the current charter.

On paper their current charter is worthless....theyn have came out and stated the still want to see

That's completely ridiculous. The Gazans fired rockets in response to Israeli actions in Jerusalem.

not true at all.........on this subject you are truly a spin master......

 

[JEDIYoda]

Excellent article......well worth the read...

Opinion | What the media and politicians get wrong in their criticism of Israel's use of force

'Proportionality' in international law isn't a synonym for parity in the damage inflicted by each side, but whether that damage is merited by the danger a target poses.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Jhhnn]

On paper their current charter is worthless....theyn have came out and stated the still want to see

not true at all.........on this subject you are truly a spin master......

So dishonest. Check the timeline-

Timeline of the clashes bloodying the Old City of Jerusalem

How protests escalated into the worst violence on the Temple Mount since 2017, with hundreds injured

www.timesofisrael.com

Israel-Gaza: Rockets hit Israel after militants killed

Palestinian militants fire a barrage of rockets after some of their commanders die in air strikes.

www.bbc.com

Eviction of honest Palestinian residents of Jerusalem to satisfy the radical settler faction are completely optional & deliberately provocative.

 

[Jaskalas]

Israel initiated this round of violence so your questions are dismissed.

Gaza was not bombed until it bombed Israel. Hamas fired first and you know this.

And the Hamas leader clearly stated their goal is to depose coexistence. That they celebrate eliciting your support through the blood sacrifice of their own people.

 

[IronWing]

Gaza was not bombed until it bombed Israel. Hamas fired first and you know this.

And the Hamas leader clearly stated their goal is to depose coexistence. That they celebrate eliciting your support through the blood sacrifice of their own people.

Israel attacked Palestinians in Jerusalem. Hamas responded to Israeli violence. Hamas talks about destroying Israel while Israel actually destroys Palestine.

 

[pauldun170]

US sitting in during peace talks

 

[pauldun170]

Good old refresher from a couple of years ago

 

[pmv]

That’s not going to happen, it’s too many non-Jews for Israel to integrate, nor do many Palestinians want to become Israeli.

So what's the alternative? To expel them all, or to continue with a form of Apartheid (as a Human Rights Watch report recently described it...though another Israeli human rights body even-more-provocatively called it "Jewish supremacism")? That didn't go too well for South Africa.

I constantly try to stay out of this argument, because it really does seem like a case where there's wickedness and victimhood on 'both sides'. I have family members who are equally-fervently on opposite sides of the dispute (Jewish relatives who are very pro-Israel and relatives who are "persons of colour" and grew up in a colonised country and identify just as strongly with the Palestinians). The whole mess looks insoluble to me.

 

[rommelrommel]

So what's the alternative? To expel them all, or to continue with a form of Apartheid (as a Human Rights Watch report recently described it...though another Israeli human rights body even-more-provocatively called it "Jewish supremacism")? That didn't go too well for South Africa.

I constantly try to stay out of this argument, because it really does seem like a case where there's wickedness and victimhood on 'both sides'. I have family members who are equally-fervently on opposite sides of the dispute (Jewish relatives who are very pro-Israel and relatives who are "persons of colour" and grew up in a colonised country and identify just as strongly with the Palestinians). The whole mess looks insoluble to me.

It has to be 2 states, roughly along the 1976 borders, and the settlements abandoned (or even possibly 3, as Hamas has a currently unshakable grip on Gaza.)

 

[woolfe9998]

It has to be 2 states, roughly along the 1976 borders, and the settlements abandoned (or even possibly 3, as Hamas has a currently unshakable grip on Gaza.)

I think you meant 1967.

Also, three states doesn't work. Israel has no incentive to support a Pal state in the West Bank while Gaza continues to be run by Hamas. If what is desired is abandonment of settlements and other concessions, you aren't going to see it without adequate security guarantees and that cannot happen so long as Hamas continues to run Gaza.

 

[rommelrommel]

I think you meant 1967.

Also, three states doesn't work. Israel has no incentive to support a Pal state in the West Bank while Gaza continues to be run by Hamas. If what is desired is abandonment of settlements and other concessions, you aren't going to see it without adequate security guarantees and that cannot happen so long as Hamas continues to run Gaza.

Yeah, I meant 67, just a typo there. Israel shouldn't need an incentive to support a Palestinian state in the WB. It is not Israel and Israel shouldn't be occupying it indefinitely, especially when Hamas is actively working against stability. Call it one state if need be, but the reality is that Hamas will never allow a Palestinian state that doesn't encompass all of Israel too. If they want to have their own constantly under siege due to their own actions shithole quasi-state in Gaza, let them.

 

[woolfe9998]

Yeah, I meant 67, just a typo there. Israel shouldn't need an incentive to support a Palestinian state in the WB. It is not Israel and Israel shouldn't be occupying it indefinitely, especially when Hamas is actively working against stability. Call it one state if need be, but the reality is that Hamas will never allow a Palestinian state that doesn't encompass all of Israel too. If they want to have their own constantly under siege due to their own actions shithole quasi-state in Gaza, let them.

It doesn't matter what you think they "should" or "shouldn't" do.

Any Israeli politician who signs on to a peace deal is accountable to Israeli voters. The idea that they disband settlements and give the Pals a state while Hamas continues to fire rockets at them from Gaza is going to be a non-starter with said voters. And Israel, after all, has the power to maintain the status quo as long as it wants.

It's called realpolitik and it's the way the world works.

If any of you actually care about the Pals instead of just hating Israel, you'd actually have practical ideas for how they can obtain their own independence. Not the fantasy world where Israel suddenly admits that all along they've been the Great Satan and now they'll just bend over and give the Pals everything they ask for. That is never going to happen, no matter how much you may want it to.