Is an oil free future even possible with current and forseeable future technology?

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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,082
136
He didn't say anything about size, he said make them lighter, and he is 100% correct. The lighter the vehicle the higher the power to weight ratio is. Of course a lighter car doesn't necessarily make it more efficient per say, the engine is still going to output the same power, just with less resistance. The real problem with IC engines and efficiency isn't the fuel, it's the materials engines are made of, they just can't take the temperatures needed to make them more efficient.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: We need to focus our technology and engineering on new materials. We should be using high strength composites for everything these days. Its ridiculous we still make houses out of wood. And car parts need to be the same way.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
I've said it before and I'll say it again: We need to focus our technology and engineering on new materials. We should be using high strength composites for everything these days. Its ridiculous we still make houses out of wood. And car parts need to be the same way.

I'd like to see that too, but not just the engines, the frames and bodies too.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: We need to focus our technology and engineering on new materials. We should be using high strength composites for everything these days. Its ridiculous we still make houses out of wood. And car parts need to be the same way.

We use wood because its cheap, plentiful, easy to work with, and lasts 100's of years if maintained. Why would we change that?
 

Budarow

Golden Member
Dec 16, 2001
1,917
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Critics charge that the time frame for overcoming the technical and economic challenges to implementing wide-scale use of hydrogen vehicles is likely to be at least several decades, and hydrogen vehicles may never become broadly available.[43][63] They believe that the focus on the use of the hydrogen car is a dangerous detour from more readily available solutions to reducing the use of fossil fuels in vehicles.[64] In May 2008, Wired News reported that "experts say it will be 40 years or more before hydrogen has any meaningful impact on gasoline consumption or global warming, and we can't afford to wait that long. In the meantime, fuel cells are diverting resources from more immediate solutions."[65]

K. G. Duleep speculates that "a strong case exists for continuing fuel-efficiency improvements from conventional technology at relatively low cost."[66] Critiques of hydrogen vehicles are presented in the 2006 documentary, Who Killed the Electric Car?. According to former U.S. Department of Energy official Joseph Romm, "A hydrogen car is one of the least efficient, most expensive ways to reduce greenhouse gases." Asked when hydrogen cars will be broadly available, Romm replied: "Not in our lifetime, and very possibly never."[66] The Los Angeles Times wrote, in February 2009, "Hydrogen fuel-cell technology won't work in cars.... Any way you look at it, hydrogen is a lousy way to move cars."[67] A 2007 article in Technology Review stated, "In the context of the overall energy economy, a car like the BMW Hydrogen 7 would probably produce far more carbon dioxide emissions than gasoline-powered cars available today. And changing this calculation would take multiple breakthroughs – which study after study has predicted will take decades, if they arrive at all. In fact, the Hydrogen 7 and its hydrogen-fuel-cell cousins are, in many ways, simply flashy distractions produced by automakers who should be taking stronger immediate action to reduce the greenhouse-gas emissions of their cars."[43][68]

The Wall Street Journal reported in 2008 that "Top executives from General Motors Corp. and Toyota Motor Corp. Tuesday expressed doubts about the viability of hydrogen fuel cells for mass-market production in the near term and suggested their companies are now betting that electric cars will prove to be a better way to reduce fuel consumption and cut tailpipe emissions on a large scale."[6][69] In addition, Ballard Power Systems, a leading developer of hydrogen vehicle technology, pulled back from the Hydrogen vehicle business in late 2007. Research Capital analyst Jon Hykawy concluded that Ballard saw the industry going nowhere and said: "In my view, the hydrogen car was never alive. The problem was never could you build a fuel cell that would consume hydrogen, produce electricity, and fit in a car. The problem was always, can you make hydrogen fuel at a price point that makes any sense to anybody. And the answer to that to date has been no."[70]. In December 2009, however, Ballard announced a three-year contract for the delivery of the FCvelocity fuel cells for Daimler Benz.[71]

The Economist magazine, in September 2008, quoted Robert Zubrin, the author of Energy Victory, as saying: "Hydrogen is 'just about the worst possible vehicle fuel'".[72] The magazine noted the withdrawal of California from earlier goals: "In March [2008] the California Air Resources Board, an agency of California's state government and a bellwether for state governments across America, changed its requirement for the number of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) to be built and sold in California between 2012 and 2014. The revised mandate allows manufacturers to comply with the rules by building more battery-electric cars instead of fuel-cell vehicles."[72] The magazine also noted that most hydrogen is produced through steam reformation, which creates at least as much emission of carbon per mile as some of today's gasoline cars. On the other hand, if the hydrogen could be produced using renewable energy, "it would surely be easier simply to use this energy to charge the batteries of all-electric or plug-in hybrid vehicles."[72]

On May 2009 the U.S. Secretary of Energy Stephen Chu announced that since fuel cell hydrogen vehicles "will not be practical over the next 10 to 20 years", the U.S. government would "cut off funds" for development of hydrogen vehicles, although the DoE will continue to fund research related to stationary fuel cells. He cited difficulties in the development of the required infrastructure to distribute hydrogen as a justification for cutting research funds.[73] The National Hydrogen Association and other hydrogen groups criticized the decision.[74] Secretary Chu told MIT's Technology Review that he is skeptical about hydrogen's use in transportation because "the way we get hydrogen primarily is from reforming [natural] gas.... You're giving away some of the energy content of natural gas.... So that's one problem.... [For] transportation, we don't have a good storage mechanism yet.... The fuel cells aren't there yet, and the distribution infrastructure isn't there yet.... In order to get significant deployment, you need four significant technological breakthroughs.... If you need four miracles, that's unlikely: saints only need three miracles".[75] Congress overrode the administration's proposal, restoring funding for hydrogen car research in its appropriations bill for 2010.[7]

The Washington Post asked in November 2009, "But why would you want to store energy in the form of hydrogen and then use that hydrogen to produce electricity for a motor, when electrical energy is already waiting to be sucked out of sockets all over America and stored in auto batteries...?" The paper concluded that commercializing hydrogen cars is "stupendously difficult and probably pointless. That's why, for the foreseeable future, the hydrogen car will remain a tailpipe dream".[47] Digital Trends reported that a December 2009 study at UC Davis, published in the Journal of Power Sources, found that, over their lifetimes, hydrogen vehicles will emit more carbon than gasoline vehicles.[76]

All your references seem to center around hydrogen fuels not making sense if the hydrogen is produced by buring coal or natual gas and I agree, that wouldn't be green energy. I'm talking about a combo solar (or wind) and hydrogen fuel powered electricity generating power plants. When the sun isn't shinning and/or the wind isn't blowing, the hydrogen would be burned to produce electricity at the power plant. The hydrogen acts as the store of energy rather than batteries. And as for cars, can't the hydrogen produced by solar/wind powered power plants be transported via pipelines across the country? These pipelines carry every manor of petroleum based fuels so why not convert them to transport hydrogen?
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
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Well, its arguably the cause of many wars of the 20th and 21st century (since the industrial revolution) and also the cause of most of the really bad environmental disasters the world has known. And even when things are just fine it still generates loads of pollution during normal use. And it takes millions of years for the planet to produce so once we use it up, thats it.
Eventually we will have to find something new, and it makes sense to start looking ASAP. The most successful civilizations are the ones who look to the future.
.

And if we switch to another form of energy there won't be any wars over that? You think all other forms of energy come with no cost and no downsides? We can just harness the power of rainbows and unicorns if we just look to the future? :rolleyes: If you want to use alternative energy that is 3 times the cost.. GO AHEAD.. don't force the rest of us to do it in the name of saving the planet. Ultimately saving the planet is a bunch of bullshit because every 'plan' people come up with involves taxes - Which tells me its nothing but a political power grab.
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,433
110
116
I've said it before and I'll say it again: We need to focus our technology and engineering on new materials. We should be using high strength composites for everything these days. Its ridiculous we still make houses out of wood. And car parts need to be the same way.
Basically this. Materials engineering is a huge key to multiple issues. It's not nuclear technology holding fusion back, it's materials technology. And fusion is one of the best potential options we have right now.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Why would anyone care?

Oil is cheap and plentiful. Pretty sure no one outside of those whack job "progressives" wants to go oil free but that is only because they want Americans to give up their luxury items and live like its a 3rd world country.

Uhh... "oil-free"? well, not exactly but for transportation - yes. I'm a diehard Conservative and think it's stupid that we don't already have Electric cars. With all the research and monies out there, it's sad that we don't have a better storage system to handle watt-hour demands of a vehicle. But we are getting closer with some of the crappy electric cars coming out. None of them are going to be worth it IMO as most are based on legacy thinking.

...I'll stop now before I go all hippy on here, but I will say that eventually my goal is to be off the "grid". It'll take a while but eventually I'll buy some land and build it. Monthly payments to utils are for morons. :)
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
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Nowsday I seen all sort of people said that we should kick our oil habit, but is it even possible? Everything use oil, from cars to boat to airplane to even plastic. People LOVE to blame it is our demand for oil that cause this accident, but it is not. It was solely on the incompetent of the US inspector to the cost cutting action from the BP that cause this accident. Even if we completely stop using oil tomorrow, every other countries in the world will use it and they will use it happily too. The best we could do is to start building more nuclear reactor, that will decrease the need for oil. We also got no replacement for plastic either.

Now unless US government is giving everyone that have a car an electric car, our demand for oil won't drop anytime soon, people needs car to get to work and any family bigger than 5 most likely need a suv unless they got at least 2-3 cars, but that would double the gas usage won't we? The matter of fact is, US is simply too big to travel for just public transportation. If someone need to drive 1 hour to work, it will take twice or triple amount of time by the way of public transportation, not really efficient, right?

I don't know, but everyone though going to the Moon was impossible too...

Oh yeah, and electric cars use oil too.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
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I amazed reading people saying "oil is cheap and plenty".

Because oil (gas, coal etc.) is not cheap by all means, and even when i was still living in the states i saw people bitching at the prices at the pump constantly. (Its another story that gas here in EU is about 2.6x as much in the states)

I am also amazed that someone (as if it wouldn't be important) mentioned "oil will still last 100 years"... since i don't think 100 years is that long a time. It basically means that your future kids could see earth running out of oil and other fossil energy sources. Its not some science fiction but very real. [The "winner" THEN will be those countries who already invested R&D in alternative energies - and EU is wayyyyyyyy ahead of you guys in that regards, just as a side-note.]

Then i don't even want to mention "related" problems like ecosystem destruction and so forth which is done to get the oil in the first place...

So this not SOME reason for concern?
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Walmart would freak. There would be no more plastic crap to sell. We would have to go back to drinking from cans and glass bottles.
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
The amount of ignorance..can be MIND BLOWING...

http://www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm

I'll ignore the fact that most houses are not built with rain forest wood in our country.. but whatever. Do you think if we use plastic, steel, unicorn bones to build houses there is no environmental impact?

Wood is renewable.. And in the United States the amount of forest is actually INCREASING as we are replanting more than we grow. The problem with the rain forest is that the people there are so poor that the only way they can survive is to chop the rainforest down and farm it.

Perhaps instead of trying to stop the usage of a renewable resource we should be looking at ways to help the population of the rainforest sustain themselves without destruction of the forest?

So do tell me, what magical substance thats renewable, cheap, eco friendly, long lasting, and plentiful do you plan to have us use? Please, enlighten my ignorance.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,823
6,369
126
Uhh... "oil-free"? well, not exactly but for transportation - yes. I'm a diehard Conservative and think it's stupid that we don't already have Electric cars. With all the research and monies out there, it's sad that we don't have a better storage system to handle watt-hour demands of a vehicle. But we are getting closer with some of the crappy electric cars coming out. None of them are going to be worth it IMO as most are based on legacy thinking.

...I'll stop now before I go all hippy on here, but I will say that eventually my goal is to be off the "grid". It'll take a while but eventually I'll buy some land and build it. Monthly payments to utils are for morons. :)

I still think that the Idea of easily replaced Battery Packs is the best. At least in the interim. You'd pull into a Service Station similar to a Quick Oil change bay, they would unlatch your Bat Pack, a lift would lower it down, another lift would put a fully charged Bat Pack into place, you Pay some Fee and drive off. Would take approx the same time it takes to Fill your tank now.

Range is still an Issue though, but for City Driving or even Commuting from the Suburbs this would work rather well.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,823
6,369
126
I'll ignore the fact that most houses are not built with rain forest wood in our country.. but whatever. Do you think if we use plastic, steel, unicorn bones to build houses there is no environmental impact?

Wood is renewable.. And in the United States the amount of forest is actually INCREASING as we are replanting more than we grow. The problem with the rain forest is that the people there are so poor that the only way they can survive is to chop the rainforest down and farm it.

Perhaps instead of trying to stop the usage of a renewable resource we should be looking at ways to help the population of the rainforest sustain themselves without destruction of the forest?

So do tell me, what magical substance thats renewable, cheap, eco friendly, long lasting, and plentiful do you plan to have us use? Please, enlighten my ignorance.

I always disagree with You, but not on this.

I'll also point out that the Rain Forest isn't being cut down to build Housing or other such use of Wood. It is being cut down for Farmland. At least in Brazil, other places are likely using it as Fuel along with Timber Production. Most of the First World has been practicing quite sustainable Forestry for quite some time now.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,447
216
106
Still waiting for the magic battery, too far off, and we will run out of cheap fuel before then
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
I still think that the Idea of easily replaced Battery Packs is the best. At least in the interim. You'd pull into a Service Station similar to a Quick Oil change bay, they would unlatch your Bat Pack, a lift would lower it down, another lift would put a fully charged Bat Pack into place, you Pay some Fee and drive off. Would take approx the same time it takes to Fill your tank now.

Range is still an Issue though, but for City Driving or even Commuting from the Suburbs this would work rather well.

Yeah, that's the problem with the current lot - not something anyone could do. I'd rather think that instead of a pump, you'd pull up to a vending machine type machine. Take your empty's out - the machine would check to make sure they'll hold a charge. Dispense you new/recharged ones. If one was worn out - you'd pay the extra fee for the container. It'd be rather simple and could be universal if people wouldn't be so stuck in their thinking. (think redbox ;) )
 

Fear No Evil

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2008
5,922
0
0
I always disagree with You, but not on this.

I'll also point out that the Rain Forest isn't being cut down to build Housing or other such use of Wood. It is being cut down for Farmland. At least in Brazil, other places are likely using it as Fuel along with Timber Production. Most of the First World has been practicing quite sustainable Forestry for quite some time now.

Damnit! I've tried to maintain a 100% opposition to Sandorski line.. This is seriously going to impact my reputation! :D
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
At 50miles/hr with the stereo up, you don't feel other peoples suffering, yes what a culture!

You obviously haven't been on the 405 if you think 50mph is how we move here. It's quite easily to forget about other peoples suffering when it takes on average 1hr+ to go 18 miles daily in modern times.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Walmart would freak. There would be no more plastic crap to sell. We would have to go back to drinking from cans and glass bottles.

We can always go back to bakelite . It wasn't the best form of plastic but it worked and doesn't require oil.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
The amount of ignorance..can be MIND BLOWING...

http://www.rain-tree.com/facts.htm

Wood has the potential of replacing a lot of materials. It can be used to make just about anything that can be made from oil.
I live in an area that is logged often and they replant every tree they cut. It looks odd to see trees growing in rows making up a forest rather than the random layout. However after over 20 years of logging here there are not vast open areas where forest once were, just more trees.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,168
826
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Once the issues with battery technology are finally resolved, and electric cars are competitive with gasoline cars with regards to cruising range, refueling time, and cost, then everyone will drive electric cars. And not because the govt will force them or because oil is some kind of luxury, but because electric motors are superior to ICEs in almost every way. Repeat after me: "maximum torque at 0 rpm." A practical electric car would blow the doors off any comparable gasoline car. Just look at the Tesla.

Will there ever be an oil free future? No, even if we don't burn it for energy, oil is still useful for countless other applications. Just because it is cheap and plentiful is no reason to keep wasting on legacy applications like ICEs.

Sorry Vic but I think plenty of car enthusiasts would beg to differ. Every electric car out there, including the Tesla, is rather boring and underperforming compared to gasoline-powered sports cars. For the price of a Tesla ($109k MSRP) you can get some pretty incredible cars that will trounce the Tesla in just about every test there is. The extreme low-end torque production is a pretty cool feature of electric motors but it doesn't seem to translate into awesome acceleration times. Maybe in the future it will (keeping my fingers crossed).

Please don't misinterpret my post as anti-clean energy. The fact that we'll run out of oil one day is undisputed. I think R&D into alternatives is a necessity. But I don't see a whole lot of hope for car enthusiasts. The options available now are like plain tofu patties when you're used to eating steak.