Iraqi civil war has already begun, U.S. troops say

[Dari]

Originally posted by: ccbadd
Can anyone show me how the US now controls Iraqi oil? It still sells on the open market to any country who wants to buy it. I do agree that oil is a concern to the US and every other industrialized country, but look at the other big consumers. China considers it's citizens as a national resourse for the controlling powers, India is a just country from what I can tell. If you tally up the wealth of the countries involved (oil producers), it looks a lot like a few countries with energy resources are trying to extranct enormous wealth for its wealthy, including the US, but anyone CAN become wealthy in the US, what other country can say that? All this distracts from the other wealthy ME countries. The religious insane are held impoversished, by there own countries, not the US. Look at OPEC and where there countries wealth in concentrated. We are looking at economic terrorism just the same are military terrorism.

They don't. But one of the original intentions was to privatize the oil.

 

[straightalker]

The Iraqi oilfields are occupied to deny the rest of the World that oil and help drive up prices. That is the mission in Iraq. Not "liberating" the Iraqis or establishing democracy and freedom.

Primary Mission goals also include creating civil war in order to divide Iraq into at least 3 much more managable seperate states. That's why we have USA/Israeli/British Special Forces and Intel Agency operatives doing a wide range of "false-flag" terrorist attacks to blame on one faction or another.

Our naive and decent USA soldiers are of course told that they are there to bring peace and security and freedom to Iraq. Sadly, they too are a part of another Primary Objective. They are to be killed off by the toxic battlefield the Pentagon has purposely created. Today, over 500,000 Gulf War Veterans are sick and on some form of permanant disability benefits. Many are already dead and many many more will follow.

In Gulf War I a huge toxic dump filled with chemical, biological and other filth was blown up, ...upwind of tens of thousands of USA Soldiers.

If our U.S. Troops are forced to deal with the carnage of a Cival War on top all they have already been forced to endure, that will be more harsh and cruel abuse to add to the list. Tired of our Troops be lied to yet?

 

[ccbadd]

They don't. But one of the original intentions was to privatize the oil.

The Iraqi oilfields are occupied to deny the rest of the World that oil and help drive up prices. That is the mission in Iraq. Not "liberating" the Iraqis or establishing democracy and freedom.

Show some proof. You can spout all this left wing propaganda, but show some proof. How has the US prospered by this engagement? Your personal perspectives are so closed minded and politically oriented that you loose any credibility.

If you look at the exploration of oil, if the US adds Alaska's reserves and recent find in Canada, we don't really need foreign oil (outside of North America) for quite some time. This does not include vast oil fields in Mexico. The Canadian oil is mostly in shale, but at the curent prices are not so expensive to extract and refine. I wish people would learn more of what they are talking about before making these rediculous statements.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Originally posted by: ccbadd

They don't. But one of the original intentions was to privatize the oil.

The Iraqi oilfields are occupied to deny the rest of the World that oil and help drive up prices. That is the mission in Iraq. Not "liberating" the Iraqis or establishing democracy and freedom.

Show some proof. You can spout all this left wing propaganda, but show some proof. How has the US prospered by this engagement? Your personal perspectives are so closed minded and politically oriented that you loose any credibility.

If you look at the exploration of oil, if the US adds Alaska's reserves and recent find in Canada, we don't really need foreign oil (outside of North America) for quite some time. This does not include vast oil fields in Mexico. The Canadian oil is mostly in shale, but at the curent prices are not so expensive to extract and refine. I wish people would learn more of what they are talking about before making these rediculous statements.

As if you know what is going on?

Yeah, right.

 

[straightalker]

we don't really need foreign oil (outside of North America) for quite some time

Why burn oil as an enegy source at all. We don't need to. Spend some time getting to know what's the actual reality out there. Alternative energy sources are supressed and inventions carted away by the Powers That Be to keep the scam going. Oil is just used as a means of dominating and controlling the World.

Iraq is in Civil War to further the re-organization of the entire Middle East. Our USA Soldiers are naive pawns in that game. The top Generals are yes-men. Phoney Medal polishing for-hire traitors. Perfumed Princes, as Colonel David Hackworth liked to always call them.

True, the World has a huge amount of oil. Peak Oil theory is a scam. A scam build upon a bigger scam. The entire dependence upon oil is a scam. We don't need oil for fuel. Water will suffice quite nicely. As will the energy in a vaccuum. Don't understand? Learn. Google.

Iraq is just the latest area of our World where the scam has produced violence. You can go down the list of Bush's "terrorist Nations". They're all large oil producers or else they are a threat to the oil companies in the region. Or else they are a place to build a military base.

The USA has Halliburton and dozens of other insider corporations building huge USA Military bases all over the World. A shattered Iraq torn and divided by Civil War provides the perfect excuse and cover to build big new U.S. military Bases there.

You see a truely "liberated Iraq" would become self governing and neither need nor want the huge USA military presence there anymore. There has to be perpetual war. Cival War, ...whatever. Any War will do.

It's time you care enough about our Troops to be able to talk straight about returning them home where they belong. They are not mercenaries for hire by the global oil monopoly Corporations.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: straightalker

we don't really need foreign oil (outside of North America) for quite some time

Why burn oil as an enegy source at all. We don't need to. Spend some time getting to know what's the actual reality out there. Alternative energy sources are supressed and inventions carted away by the Powers That Be to keep the scam going. Oil is just used as a means of dominating and controlling the World.

Iraq is in Civil War to further the re-organization of the entire Middle East. Our USA Soldiers are naive pawns in that game. The top Generals are yes-men. Phoney Medal polishing for-hire traitors. Perfumed Princes, as Colonel David Hackworth liked to always call them.

True, the World has a huge amount of oil. Peak Oil theory is a scam. A scam build upon a bigger scam. The entire dependence upon oil is a scam. We don't need oil for fuel. Water will suffice quite nicely. As will the energy in a vaccuum. Don't understand? Learn. Google.

Iraq is just the latest area of our World where the scam has produced violence. You can go down the list of Bush's "terrorist Nations". They're all large oil producers or else they are a threat to the oil companies in the region. Or else they are a place to build a military base.

The USA has Halliburton and dozens of other insider corporations building huge USA Military bases all over the World. A shattered Iraq torn and divided by Civil War provides the perfect excuse and cover to build big new U.S. military Bases there.

You see a truely "liberated Iraq" would become self governing and neither need nor want the huge USA military presence there anymore. There has to be perpetual war. Cival War, ...whatever. Any War will do.

It's time you care enough about our Troops to be able to talk straight about returning them home where they belong. They are not mercenaries for hire by the global oil monopoly Corporations.

My personal opinion is that you are quite insane.

 

[LunarRay]

One thing I find important about Islam as a central belief of many in the world is the way the commandments of Moses have been interpreted. One in particular is what generally guides my thinking about Iraq. That one says that "If someone murders it is as if he murdered everyone" and/or "he should be treated in such a manner". It is OK for them to rid the non believer from their land via killing so that must be in line with their notion of scripture and not 'murder'. If they believe we, the US, have 'murdered' then they hold everyone of the US citizens in less esteem than the heretic they seek to eliminate via 'killing'.
How on Earth can we hope to bring peace to a land where everyone is against us.. or should be if they are even remotely consistent..??

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
One thing I find important about Islam as a central belief of many in the world is the way the commandments of Moses have been interpreted. One in particular is what generally guides my thinking about Iraq. That one says that "If someone murders it is as if he murdered everyone" and/or "he should be treated in such a manner". It is OK for them to rid the non believer from their land via killing so that must be in line with their notion of scripture and not 'murder'. If they believe we, the US, have 'murdered' then they hold everyone of the US citizens in less esteem than the heretic they seek to eliminate via 'killing'.
How on Earth can we hope to bring peace to a land where everyone is against us.. or should be if they are even remotely consistent..??

To answer this, if it is answerable at all, I would doubtless have to devote some years to becoming an expert on Islam. That is far from my last priority, but it is not my first. In the meant time I assume that as with all religions, one can express or support almost any opinion selectively via isolated quotes and readings. I did think in those days that people who were Infidels were people not of the Book of the three monotheistic religions, pagan savages and butchers like the Mongols and stuff, people who wanted to do in those who believed in a loving God. But like I said, I am ignorant and have no crystallized opinion.

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dari
Intelligence breeds arrogance. This war will bleed us dry.

The price of arrogance must be paid. If you break it you own it.

Ah... the exit strategy... If I own what I broke... then to the trash can it goes.. I am rid of the problem now..

You break it you own it morally. You can't toss it in the trash and not be guilty for what happens. We owe Iraq a sovereign nation what ever it costs us. Later we can try the bastards that broke it in the Hague.

Well... gee... To get Iraq to be at one with itself requires elimination of two thirds the people it seems.. not too morally sound if you ask me. They don't like each other at all. We can't just stay there and make Iraq our dependent protectorate can we? They are gonna continue this 'civil war' until the superior numbers win out and then still more violence will occur until there is either no reason to kill or divine intervention or maybe some other intervention makes it happen.
It is broke now and was broke before we came.. we took the only means to avoid this 'civil war' away as a human rights violator and created a million more.. Are we really that dumb and if so are we smart enough to mend the morally shattered endeavor?

Are we a morally superior culture to what exists in Iraq? Is we are perhaps in the least we could destroy their culture and replace it with our own. But we will have to revoke our promise of democracy and lay down the law. Perhaps we should annex it as the 51st state and bring all the children here, let the adults die of old age and then let the kids go back.

yes we are morally superior- we wipe with toilet paper........nuff said....

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: BBond
If the "president" and his generals can't figure out whether the situation they created in Iraq is a civil war maybe their troops can enlighten them.

And for those who insist on repeating the lame defense that critics keep criticizing the "president" without offering any solutions I would like to point out, as mentioned in the following article, that IT'S BEEN OVER THREE YEARS AND bUSH STILL HAS NO SOLUTION FOR THE MESS hE CREATED IN IRAQ!!!

My solution, get the idiots who started this the hell out of office and into jail where they belong. It's simple really, unless you fall prey to the rovian logic this bunch has been foisting on America for the past six years or so, when you are being led in the wrong direction with no plan and no solutions being offered change leaders because with the current crop of idiots in charge you're guaranteed only more of the same.

Please be sure to read the bolded sections for proof if you haven't been able to figure that out for yourself yet.

Iraqi civil war has already begun, U.S. troops say

By Tom Lasseter
McClatchy Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq - While American politicians and generals in Washington debate the possibility of civil war in Iraq, U.S. officers and enlisted men who patrol Baghdad daily say it has already begun.

Army troops in and around Baghdad interviewed in the last week cite a long list of evidence that the center of the nation is coming undone: Villages have been abandoned by Sunni and Shiite Muslims; Sunni insurgents have killed thousands of Shiites in car bombings and assassinations; Shiite militia death squads have tortured and killed hundreds, if not thousands, of Sunnis; and when night falls, neighborhoods become open battlegrounds.

"There's one street that's the dividing line. They shoot mortars across the line and abduct people back and forth," said 1st Lt. Brian Johnson, a 4th Infantry Division platoon leader from Houston, describing the nightly battleground that pits Sunni gunmen from the Ghazaliyah neighborhood against Shiite gunmen from the Shula district.

As he spoke, the sights and sounds of battle grew: first, the rat-a-tat-tat of fire from AK-47 assault rifles, then the heavier bursts of PKC machine guns, and finally the booms of mortar rounds crisscrossing the night sky and crashing down onto houses and roads.

The bodies of captured Sunni and Shiite fighters will turn up in the morning, dropped in canals and left on the side of the road.

"We've seen some that have been executed on site, with bullet holes in the ground; the rest were tortured and executed somewhere else and dumped," Johnson said.

The recent assertion by U.S. soldiers here that Iraq is in a civil war is a stunning indication that American efforts to bring peace and democracy to Iraq are failing, more than three years after the toppling of dictator Saddam Hussein's regime.

Some Iraqi troops, too, share that assessment.

"This is a civil war," said a senior adviser to the commander of the Iraqi Army's 6th Division, which oversees much of Baghdad.

"The problem between Sunnis and Shiites is a religious one, and it gets worse every time they attack each other's mosques," said the adviser, who gave only his rank and first name, Col. Ahmed, because of security concerns. "Iraq is now caught in hell."

U.S. hopes for victory in Iraq hinge principally on two factors: Iraqi security forces becoming more competent and Iraqi political leaders persuading armed groups to lay down their weapons.

But neither seems to be happening. The violence has increased as Iraqi troops have been added, and feuding among the political leadership is intense. American soldiers, particularly the rank and file who go out on daily patrols, say they see no end to the bloodshed. Higher ranking officers concede that the developments are threatening to move beyond their grasp.

"There's no plan - we are constantly reacting," said a senior American military official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "I have absolutely no idea what we're going to do."

The issue of whether Iraq has descended into civil war has been a hot-button topic even before U.S. troops entered Iraq in 2003, when some opponents of the war raised the likelihood that Iraq would fragment along sectarian lines if Saddam's oppressive regime was removed. Bush administration officials consistently rejected such speculation as unlikely to come to fruition.

On Thursday, however, two top American generals told the Senate Armed Services Committee that Iraq could slip into civil war, though both stopped well short of saying that one had begun.

Political sensitivity has made some officers here hesitant to use the words "civil war," but they aren't shy about describing the situation that they and their men have found on their patrols.

"I hate to use the word `purify,' because it sounds very bad, but they are trying to force Shiites into Shiite areas and Sunnis into Sunni areas," said Lt. Col. Craig Osborne, who commands a 4th Infantry Division battalion on the western edge of Baghdad, a hotspot of sectarian violence.

Osborne, 39, of Decatur, Ill., compared Iraq to Rwanda, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed in an orgy of inter-tribal violence in 1994. "That was without doubt a civil war - the same thing is happening here."

"But it's not called a civil war - there's such a negative connotation to that word and it suggests failure," he said.

On the other side of Baghdad, Shiites from the eastern slum of Sadr City and Sunnis from the nearby neighborhood of Adhamiyah regularly launch incursions into each other's areas, setting off car bombs and dragging victims into torture chambers.

"The sectarian violence flip-flops back and forth," said Lt. Col. Paul Finken, who commands a 101st Airborne Division task force that works with Iraqi soldiers in the area. "We find bodies all the time - bound, tortured, shot."

The idea that U.S. forces have been unable to prevent the nation from sliding into sectarian chaos troubles many American military officials in Iraq.

Lt. Col. Chris Pease, 48, the deputy commander for the 101st Airborne's brigade in eastern Baghdad, was asked whether he thought that Iraq's civil war had begun.

"Civil war," he said, and then paused for several moments.

"You've got to understand," said Pease, of Milton-Freewater, Ore., "you know, the United States Army and most of the people in the United States Army, the Marine Corps and the Air Force and the Navy have never really lost at anything."

Pease paused again.

"Whether it is there or not, I don't know," he said.

Pressed for what term he would use to describe the security situation in Iraq, Pease said: "Right now I would say that it's more of a Kosovo, ethnic-cleansing type thing - not ethnic cleansing, it is a sectarian fight - they are bombing; they are threatening to get them off the land."

A human rights report released last month by the United Nations mission in Baghdad said 2,669 civilians were killed across Iraq during May, and 3,149 were killed in June. In total, 14,338 civilians were killed from January to June of this year, and 150,000 civilians were forced out of their homes, the report said.

Pointing to a map, 1st Lt. Robert Murray, last week highlighted a small Shiite village of 25 homes that was abandoned after a flurry of death threats came to town on small pieces of paper.

"The letters tell them if they don't leave in 48 hours, they'll kill their entire families," said Murray, 29, of Franklin, Mass. "It's happening a lot right now. There have been a lot of murders recently; between that and the kidnappings, they're making good on their threats. ... They need to learn to live together. I'd like to see it happen, but I don't know if it's possible."

Riding in a Humvee later that day, Capt. Jared Rudacille, Murray's commander in the 4th Infantry Division, noted the market of a town he was passing through. The stalls were all vacant. The nearby homes were empty. There wasn't a single civilian car on the road.

"Between 1,500 and 2,000 people have moved out," said Rudacille, 29, of York, Pa. "I now see only 15 or 20 people out during the day."

The following evening, 1st Lt. Corbett Baxter was showing a reporter the area, to the west of where Rudacille was, that he patrols.

"Half of my entire northern sector cleared out in a week, about 2,000 people," said Baxter, 25, of Fort Hood, Texas.

Staff Sgt. Wesley Ramon had a similar assessment while on patrol between the Sunni town of Abu Ghraib and Shula, a Shiite stronghold. The main bridge leading out of Shula was badly damaged recently by four bombs placed underneath it. Military officials think the bombers were Sunnis trying to stanch the flow of Shiite militia gunmen coming out of Shula to kill Sunnis.

"It's to the point of being irreconcilable; you know, we've found a lot of bodies, entire villages have been cleared out, we get reports of entire markets being gunned down - and if that's not a marker of a civil war, I don't know what is," said Ramon, 33, of San Antonio, Texas.

Driving back to his base, Johnson watched a long line of trucks and cars go by, packed with families fleeing their homes with everything they could carry: mattresses, clothes, furniture, and, in the back of some trucks, bricks to build another home.

"Every morning that we head back to the patrol base, this is all we see," Johnson said. "These are probably people who got threatened last night."

In Taji, an area north of Baghdad, where the roads between Sunni and Shiite villages have become killing fields, many soldiers said they saw little chance that things would get better.

"I don't think there's any winning here. Victory for us is withdrawing," said Sgt. James Ellis, 25, of Chicago. "In this part of the world they have been fighting for 3,000 years, and we're not going to fix it in three."

All of this can be laid directly at the feet of one george w. bush and the rest of the criminals in his administration, along with the neocon madmen whose plans for an "American Century" have led us to an American debacle instead.

That the people of the United States of America have NOT demanded accountability for the lies, mistakes, failures, corruption, and outright crimes these people have committed and indeed continue to profit from to this very day is an indictment of our entire nation.

Unless and until these criminals are all brought to justice expect nothing but more of the same. NO ONE can escape the consequences of their actions forever. Well, maybe Osama can but that's because America actually trusted the fool who led us off on this fool's errand in Iraq to "smoke him out" and get him "dead or alive" when in reality bush was busy planning to do to Iraq exactly what Osama did to the U.S. on 9/11. So instead we find ourselves stuck with the single worst mistake ever made by the single worst president in American history.

And America remains silent but that silence is deafening to the rest of humanity.

congratulations- you have pointed out how 5-10 members of a 130,000 strong military believe there is civil war in Iraq. I guess that means it must be true.......funny because in a country with millions, the numbers who have been killed due to 'ethnic cleansing' have been extremely low.

By the way- I'm over here right now and just asked the other 8 guys in my tent if they thought there was a civil war going on............anyways I totaled 9 nay's to your 5.........

 

[straightalker]

Monnbeam:

My personal opinion is that you are quite insane.

Coming from a clown who strangely is allowed to run roughshod over this forum thread-crapping at will.

Fire at will orders?

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

hysperion

congratulations- you have pointed out how 5-10 members of a 130,000 strong military believe there is civil war in Iraq. I guess that means it must be true.......funny because in a country with millions, the numbers who have been killed due to 'ethnic cleansing' have been extremely low.

It's an unconstitutional war that also went against all standing International Laws against military aggression. Also, Iraq did not do 9-11.

The Iraq war is built upon lies and maintained upon lies by an Administration filled with Iran Contra kingpins that have long been identified as "the crazies" by everyone of sound judgement elsewhere in every significant sector of our USA Government relevant to this subject.

Only Congress has the Constitutional Authority to declare war on a Nation. And it has to be reasonably justified based on a fact of us being actually attacked by that Country.

The concept of having the Executive Branch, namely the President, though in the current case Cheney is the handler of Bush, declaring wars on dozens of Nations one after another based on a pre-emptive war doctrine ...is an extreme act of userpation of the Constitution and therefore gross treason.

Bush has declared over 60 Nations are on his list of evil Nations. Cheney has declared this to be a 100 year war. Question please? Did you fail in your duty to defend the USA Constitution?

You can't defend it by making it into toilet paper, which is what "the crazzies" who occupy the WhiteHouse have done in order to fulfill their own agenda. Our USA troops are just being made pawns again. The Civil War in Iraq will make that area of the planet even more the hell hole that it already is. Sandwiched between two warring factions of Islam who hate each other and hate us too. Infinitely.

Wrong use of our troops who should onlybe used to defend America. That's their only Constitutionally authorized use. The phrase "war on terror" is pure psyops mass mind control. We had a "war against communism" that did not authorise the USA Military to pre-emptively attack every communist Country in the World the past 50 years. Communist leaders butchered or crippled hundreds of millions of people during that time. But they knew better than to outright attack the United States. Why? Because we would kick their arses that's why. Diplomacy should be used to mitigate potential conflicts. Not pre-emptive military attacks. That's madness on it's face. Because what if Russia and China engaged in the same military doctrine? What if everyone did?

Within Nations, Civil Wars are fought without any regard for humanity or other Nations. They are internal slugfests that the USA Military has no business being involved in.

 

[hysperion]

Originally posted by: straightalker
Monnbeam:

My personal opinion is that you are quite insane.

Coming from a clown who strangely is allowed to run roughshod over this forum thread-crapping at will.

Fire at will orders?

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

hysperion

congratulations- you have pointed out how 5-10 members of a 130,000 strong military believe there is civil war in Iraq. I guess that means it must be true.......funny because in a country with millions, the numbers who have been killed due to 'ethnic cleansing' have been extremely low.

It's an unconstitutional war that also went against all standing International Laws against military aggression. Also, Iraq did not do 9-11.

The Iraq war is built upon lies and maintained upon lies by an Administration filled with Iran Contra kingpins that have long been identified as "the crazies" by everyone of sound judgement elsewhere in every significant sector of our USA Government relevant to this subject.

Only Congress has the Constitutional Authority to declare war on a Nation. And it has to be reasonably justified based on a fact of us being actually attacked by that Country.

The concept of having the Executive Branch, namely the President, though in the current case Cheney is the handler of Bush, declaring wars on dozens of Nations one after another based on a pre-emptive war doctrine ...is an extreme act of userpation of the Constitution and therefore gross treason.

Bush has declared over 60 Nations are on his list of evil Nations. Cheney has declared this to be a 100 year war. Question please? Did you fail in your duty to defend the USA Constitution?

You can't defend it by making it into toilet paper, which is what "the crazzies" who occupy the WhiteHouse have done in order to fulfill their own agenda. Our USA troops are just being made pawns again. The Civil War in Iraq will make that area of the planet even more the hell hole that it already is. Sandwiched between two warring factions of Islam who hate each other and hate us too. Infinitely.

Wrong use of our troops who should onlybe used to defend America. That's their only Constitutionally authorized use. The phrase "war on terror" is pure psyops mass mind control. We had a "war against communism" that did not authorise the USA Military to pre-emptively attack every communist Country in the World the past 50 years. Communist leaders butchered or crippled hundreds of millions of people during that time. But they knew better than to outright attack the United States. Why? Because we would kick their arses that's why. Diplomacy should be used to mitigate potential conflicts. Not pre-emptive military attacks. That's madness on it's face. Because what if Russia and China engaged in the same military doctrine? What if everyone did?

Within Nations, Civil Wars are fought without any regard for humanity or other Nations. They are internal slugfests that the USA Military has no business being involved in.

we're not at war with iraq- the war with iraq is over...........and I guess I missed the part of the constitution that says all the bs you're spewing......care to show the rest of us? My clue is you have no clue what the actual constitution says..........

"Only Congress has the Constitutional Authority to declare war on a Nation. And it has to be reasonably justified based on a fact of us being actually attacked by that Country."

Nope Congress can declare war for any f-n reason they want. Nowhere in the constitution does it say they have to justify ****** about it......

So- not only have you not pointed out the war was unconstitutional- which you can barely call this war a war anymore since we aren't having large scale engagements accross the country and 2500 dead in 3 years is paltry compared to nearly every war this country has been in except GW1 when their was no occupying of the country.

And the war "with communism" didn't need to authorize the US to to invade every communist country. We simply didn't do it because it wasn't in our interests.

In case you didn't know- there are 280 million people in the US right now living in relative Eutopia. When you get out of your little box that you've been living in you'll realize that every nation on top always steps on the little guy from Greek to Rome to Europe to *gasp* even us now. Our whole international economy is based on the fact that Opec uses the US dollar exclusively for selling their oil. Due to the fact we just print more money- this is a worldwide tax on every nation that has to hold our currency from inflation. Were they not to need to do this anymore our currency values would extremely deflate and we'd no longer be the superpower we are today.
Oil is the way of the world- no doubt this is an oil war and I'm proud to support it because whether you like it or not- oil supports America's current way of life and if sheep like you were in charge we'd all be living like the Chinese or people in India- in slums.........who knows- maybe you're just one of those American haters that seem to be so common these days. It's common accross the country- people grown up in priviledge in the wealthiest nation with the highest standard of living ever talking about how they hate their country. F_N Hypocrites should see what it's like in the 85% of the world that isn't 'first world'.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: hysperion
congratulations- you have pointed out how 5-10 members of a 130,000 strong military believe there is civil war in Iraq. I guess that means it must be true.......funny because in a country with millions, the numbers who have been killed due to 'ethnic cleansing' have been extremely low.

By the way- I'm over here right now and just asked the other 8 guys in my tent if they thought there was a civil war going on............anyways I totaled 9 nay's to your 5.........

Yeah it must be just some ki9nd of Iraqi Ritual, going from Neighborhood to Neighborhood murdering those who are of a different sect . What a Festival.:roll:

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: hysperion
congratulations- you have pointed out how 5-10 members of a 130,000 strong military believe there is civil war in Iraq. I guess that means it must be true.......funny because in a country with millions, the numbers who have been killed due to 'ethnic cleansing' have been extremely low.

By the way- I'm over here right now and just asked the other 8 guys in my tent if they thought there was a civil war going on............anyways I totaled 9 nay's to your 5.........

Yeah it must be just some ki9nd of Iraqi Ritual, going from Neighborhood to Neighborhood murdering those who are of a different sect . What a Festival.:roll:

You forgot to include members of the Iraqi government who believe there is a civil war going on right now in Iraq, and IMO their opinion is worth a bit more than yours, Hysperion, for two reasons. First, they aren't members of the U.S. military so they aren't subjected to the daily propaganda you're subjected to and second, they're Iraqis so they just might know a bit more about their country than you.

You've been there for months. They've been there for their lifetimes.

Here's an article to help bring you and your buddies back to reality. Since you're the one over there facing reality instead of the propaganda you're being fed by the U.S. command just might help you make it back home alive. Are they still telling you, "As the Iraqis stand up, we'll stand down." Are you among the troops being sent to Baghdad or are you among the troops who were supposed to be coming home before the U.S. elections this year???

News analysis: Gloom descends on Iraqi leaders as civil war looms

Mariam Karouny, Reuters
Published: Tuesday, August 08, 2006

BAGHDAD -- Iraqi leaders have all but given up on holding the country together and, just two months after forming a national unity government, talk in private of "black days" of civil war ahead.

Signalling a dramatic abandonment of the U.S.-backed project for Iraq, there is even talk among them of pre-empting the worst bloodshed by agreeing to an east-west division of Baghdad into Shi'ite and Sunni Muslim zones, senior officials told Reuters.

Tens of thousands have already fled homes on either side.

"Iraq as a political project is finished," one senior government official said -- anonymously because the coalition under Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki remains committed in public to the U.S.-sponsored constitution that preserves Iraq's unity.

One highly placed source even spoke of busying himself on government projects, despite a sense of their futility, only as a way to fight his growing depression over his nation's future.

"The parties have moved to Plan B," the senior official said, saying Sunni, ethnic Kurdish and majority Shi'ite blocs were looking at ways to divide power and resources and to solve the conundrum of Baghdad's mixed population of seven million.

"There is serious talk of Baghdad being divided into east and west," he said. "We are extremely worried."

On the eve of the first meeting of a National Reconciliation Commission and before Maliki meets President George W. Bush in Washington next week, other senior politicians also said they were close to giving up on hopes of preserving the 80-year-old, multi-ethnic, religiously mixed state in its present form.

"The situation is terrifying and black," said Rida Jawad al -Takki, a senior member of parliament from Maliki's dominant Shi'ite Alliance bloc, and one of the few officials from all the main factions willing to speak publicly on the issue.

"We have received information of a plan to divide Baghdad. The government is incapable of solving the situation," he said.

As sectarian violence has mounted to claim perhaps 100 lives a day and tens of thousands flee their homes, a senior official from the once dominant Sunni minority concurred: "Everyone knows the situation is very bad," he said. "I'm not optimistic."

Some Western diplomats in Baghdad say there is little sign the new government is capable of halting a slide to civil war.

"Maliki and some others seem to be genuinely trying to make this work," one said. "But it doesn't look like they have real support. The factions are looking out for their own interests."

The presence of 140,000 heavily armed foreign troops, most of them Americans, is keeping a lid on open grabs for territory by armed groups from various communities. But few see Washington willing to keep troops in Iraq indefinitely and many analysts question the new, U.S.-trained Iraqi army's cohesion.

Broadly speaking Iraq could split in three: a Shi'ite south, Kurdish north and Sunni Arab west. But there could be fierce fighting between Arabs and Kurds for Mosul and for Kirkuk's oil as well as urban war in Baghdad, resembling Beirut in the 1970s.

Officials say the Tigris river is already looking like the Beirut "Green Line", dividing Sunni west Baghdad, known by its ancient name of Karkh, from the mainly Shi'ite east, or Rusafa.

The U.S. ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, and Washington's top military commander issued a public appeal this week: "We call on Iraqi leaders to take responsibility and pursue reconciliation not just in words, but through deeds as well," they said.

But a European diplomat said: "I wonder if accepting there must be division, and civil war, might be the only option ... It may be unavoidable and so it's better to get it over with."

In public, Iraqi and U.S. officials make no secret of the gravity of the situation, five months after the destruction of a a Shi'ite shrine at Samarra launched a new phase of conflict, with Shi'ite militias now as lethal as Sunni insurgents.

Maliki has called his national reconciliation plan, offering amnesty for some rebels and promising to rein in militias, the "last chance" for peace. Khalilzad has said the government, hailed by Bush as a major success for U.S.-installed democracy in the Middle East, has just months to prove itself.

Even militia commanders say popular anger means ordinary people, most of them armed, are ignoring calls for restraint.

Shi'ite member of parliament Takki said: "People are taking the protection of their neighbouroods into their own hands."

Maliki meets Prime Minister Tony Blair in London on Monday before seeing Bush at the White House on Tuesday. Both leaders, penalised in polls since the 2003 invasion, will expect him to tell U.S. and British voters of his hopes for a new Iraq.

He may focus on Saturday's meeting of the Reconciliation Commission, expected to feature loud public calls for unity.

In private, however, one of his top officials confided earnestly: "To be honest, it's all over. I'm just still doing this job because it's the only way to fight my depression."

 

[straightalker]

hysperion

Oil is the way of the world- no doubt this is an oil war and I'm proud to support it because whether you like it or not- oil supports America's current way of life and if sheep like you were in charge we'd all be living like the Chinese or people in India- in slums.........who knows- maybe you're just one of those American haters that seem to be so common these days. It's common accross the country- people grown up in priviledge in the wealthiest nation with the highest standard of living ever talking about how they hate their country. F_N Hypocrites should see what it's like in the 85% of the world that isn't 'first world'.

Don't take anything i say personally hysperion. Here's some reading you will enjoy. Very relevant to your situation...

http://www.warisaracket.org/index.html keep clicking the word "next" in the lower right corner to advance the pages.

George Washington said: The constitution vests the power of declaring war in Congress; therefore no offensive expedition of importance can be undertaken until after they shall have deliberated upon the subject and authorized such a measure. http://www.warisaracket.org/how.html

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Back to the subject then. When is a Civil War a Civil War? There really is no clear definition. But you know it when you see it. Heavy tit-for-tat bloody fighting and heavy political fighting has been occuring in Iraq for weeks and getting steadily worse. Whatever you call that, it's not good to have 130,000 USA troops engaged in policeman duties there in the middle of that bloody sectarian Islamic conflict!

By the way, the Trans Alaska Pipeline that just went down for repairs, had been shipping 80% of it's oil to Japan and China. British Petroleum owns the Pipeline now. A foriegn oil Company that diverts our oil away from us.

 

[tommywishbone]

Mission accomplished. Thank you Herr bushler.

Morgue body count highlights Iraq bloodshed By Alister Bull
2 hours, 26 minutes ago, Wed. August 9, 2006.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Almost 2,000 bodies were taken to Baghdad's morgue in July, the highest tally in five months of rising sectarian bloodshed which has forced the United States to boost troop levels in the capital to head off a civil war.

Morgue assistant manager Doctor Abdul Razzaq al-Obaidi said on Wednesday that about 90 percent had died violently.

Most of the cases have gunshot wounds to the head. Some of them were strangled and others were beaten to death with clubs, she told Reuters.
The grim statistics came as a new poll showed the Iraq war had become more unpopular with Americans and four Iraqis suspected of involvement in the abduction of American journalist Jill Carroll were arrested by coalition forces.

The CNN poll showed that 60 percent of Americans were against the U.S. war in Iraq, the highest level of opposition since the 2003 invasion, and a majority would back a partial withdrawal of U.S. forces by year's end.

Carroll was freed unharmed in March after 82 days in captivity. More than 200 foreigners and thousands of Iraqis have been kidnapped since the 2003 invasion.

The daily drumbeat of violence continues, claiming at least 16 lives and injuring 37 others in attacks around the country.

In Baghdad, five people were killed when gunmen opened fire on a street vendor grilling fish in the western district of Jamiaa, an Interior Ministry source said. Police also found nine bodies of civilians in various parts of the capital.

The July morgue toll of 1,815 marked a big jump over the 1,595 in June and is the largest since the aftermath of the February bombing of the Shi'ite Golden Mosque of Samarra, which triggered an explosion of sectarian violence.

Iraq's Health, Interior and Defense ministries consistently provide lower figures than those released by the morgue.

Figures from those ministries showed about 1,000 civilians were killed across Iraq in July in "terrorism" attacks.

Mounting sectarian violence has prompted the United States to reinforce troop levels in Baghdad, which is regarded as the key to security in the whole country but is increasingly divided along sectarian lines.

About 6,000 additional Iraqi forces and 3,500 U.S. soldiers of the 172nd Striker Brigade combat team are being deployed in the Baghdad area and are expected to start systematically clearing neighborhoods of militants and insurgents.

DEATH SQUADS

U.S. Major General William Caldwell, chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, said on Wednesday that U.S. and Iraqi forces had conducted operations against 10 death squads throughout Baghdad in the last week, and also found 222 roadside bombs.

Sunni Arab leaders have accused Shi'ite militias of running death squads, a charge they deny.

Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki has vowed to confront the armed militias, but must tread carefully as some of these groups have close ties to parties in his government.

Maliki said a consensus was building between religious leaders and prominent tribes to condemn the killings, and he was echoed by U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalizad.

But there were no signs of unity on the streets.

Three policemen were killed and another seven wounded when a suicide car bomber rammed his car into a police station in the former tourist area of Habaniya, 85 km (51 miles) west of Baghdad, local police said.

Five civilians died and 20 were hurt by a rocket attack in Baquba, north of Baghdad, which collapsed a three-storey building near to a mosque, police said.

The U.S. military said two servicemen were missing in the insurgent hotbed of Anbar province after a helicopter crash.

The military said the helicopter, a U.S. army Blackhawk from the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing on an area familiarization flight, went down with six crew aboard on Tuesday.

Four others survived and were in a stable condition. It said the crash did not appear to have been the result of an attack.