Iraqi civil war has already begun, U.S. troops say

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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If the "president" and his generals can't figure out whether the situation they created in Iraq is a civil war maybe their troops can enlighten them.

And for those who insist on repeating the lame defense that critics keep criticizing the "president" without offering any solutions I would like to point out, as mentioned in the following article, that IT'S BEEN OVER THREE YEARS AND bUSH STILL HAS NO SOLUTION FOR THE MESS hE CREATED IN IRAQ!!!

My solution, get the idiots who started this the hell out of office and into jail where they belong. It's simple really, unless you fall prey to the rovian logic this bunch has been foisting on America for the past six years or so, when you are being led in the wrong direction with no plan and no solutions being offered change leaders because with the current crop of idiots in charge you're guaranteed only more of the same.

Please be sure to read the bolded sections for proof if you haven't been able to figure that out for yourself yet.

Iraqi civil war has already begun, U.S. troops say

By Tom Lasseter
McClatchy Newspapers

BAGHDAD, Iraq - While American politicians and generals in Washington debate the possibility of civil war in Iraq, U.S. officers and enlisted men who patrol Baghdad daily say it has already begun.

Army troops in and around Baghdad interviewed in the last week cite a long list of evidence that the center of the nation is coming undone: Villages have been abandoned by Sunni and Shiite Muslims; Sunni insurgents have killed thousands of Shiites in car bombings and assassinations; Shiite militia death squads have tortured and killed hundreds, if not thousands, of Sunnis; and when night falls, neighborhoods become open battlegrounds.

"There's one street that's the dividing line. They shoot mortars across the line and abduct people back and forth," said 1st Lt. Brian Johnson, a 4th Infantry Division platoon leader from Houston, describing the nightly battleground that pits Sunni gunmen from the Ghazaliyah neighborhood against Shiite gunmen from the Shula district.

As he spoke, the sights and sounds of battle grew: first, the rat-a-tat-tat of fire from AK-47 assault rifles, then the heavier bursts of PKC machine guns, and finally the booms of mortar rounds crisscrossing the night sky and crashing down onto houses and roads.

The bodies of captured Sunni and Shiite fighters will turn up in the morning, dropped in canals and left on the side of the road.

"We've seen some that have been executed on site, with bullet holes in the ground; the rest were tortured and executed somewhere else and dumped," Johnson said.

The recent assertion by U.S. soldiers here that Iraq is in a civil war is a stunning indication that American efforts to bring peace and democracy to Iraq are failing, more than three years after the toppling of dictator Saddam Hussein's regime.

Some Iraqi troops, too, share that assessment.

"This is a civil war," said a senior adviser to the commander of the Iraqi Army's 6th Division, which oversees much of Baghdad.


"The problem between Sunnis and Shiites is a religious one, and it gets worse every time they attack each other's mosques," said the adviser, who gave only his rank and first name, Col. Ahmed, because of security concerns. "Iraq is now caught in hell."

U.S. hopes for victory in Iraq hinge principally on two factors: Iraqi security forces becoming more competent and Iraqi political leaders persuading armed groups to lay down their weapons.

But neither seems to be happening. The violence has increased as Iraqi troops have been added, and feuding among the political leadership is intense. American soldiers, particularly the rank and file who go out on daily patrols, say they see no end to the bloodshed. Higher ranking officers concede that the developments are threatening to move beyond their grasp.

"There's no plan - we are constantly reacting," said a senior American military official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "I have absolutely no idea what we're going to do."


The issue of whether Iraq has descended into civil war has been a hot-button topic even before U.S. troops entered Iraq in 2003, when some opponents of the war raised the likelihood that Iraq would fragment along sectarian lines if Saddam's oppressive regime was removed. Bush administration officials consistently rejected such speculation as unlikely to come to fruition.

On Thursday, however, two top American generals told the Senate Armed Services Committee that Iraq could slip into civil war, though both stopped well short of saying that one had begun.

Political sensitivity has made some officers here hesitant to use the words "civil war," but they aren't shy about describing the situation that they and their men have found on their patrols.

"I hate to use the word `purify,' because it sounds very bad, but they are trying to force Shiites into Shiite areas and Sunnis into Sunni areas," said Lt. Col. Craig Osborne, who commands a 4th Infantry Division battalion on the western edge of Baghdad, a hotspot of sectarian violence.

Osborne, 39, of Decatur, Ill., compared Iraq to Rwanda, where hundreds of thousands of people were killed in an orgy of inter-tribal violence in 1994. "That was without doubt a civil war - the same thing is happening here."

"But it's not called a civil war - there's such a negative connotation to that word and it suggests failure," he said.


On the other side of Baghdad, Shiites from the eastern slum of Sadr City and Sunnis from the nearby neighborhood of Adhamiyah regularly launch incursions into each other's areas, setting off car bombs and dragging victims into torture chambers.

"The sectarian violence flip-flops back and forth," said Lt. Col. Paul Finken, who commands a 101st Airborne Division task force that works with Iraqi soldiers in the area. "We find bodies all the time - bound, tortured, shot."

The idea that U.S. forces have been unable to prevent the nation from sliding into sectarian chaos troubles many American military officials in Iraq.

Lt. Col. Chris Pease, 48, the deputy commander for the 101st Airborne's brigade in eastern Baghdad, was asked whether he thought that Iraq's civil war had begun.

"Civil war," he said, and then paused for several moments.

"You've got to understand," said Pease, of Milton-Freewater, Ore., "you know, the United States Army and most of the people in the United States Army, the Marine Corps and the Air Force and the Navy have never really lost at anything."

Pease paused again.

"Whether it is there or not, I don't know," he said.

Pressed for what term he would use to describe the security situation in Iraq, Pease said: "Right now I would say that it's more of a Kosovo, ethnic-cleansing type thing - not ethnic cleansing, it is a sectarian fight - they are bombing; they are threatening to get them off the land."

A human rights report released last month by the United Nations mission in Baghdad said 2,669 civilians were killed across Iraq during May, and 3,149 were killed in June. In total, 14,338 civilians were killed from January to June of this year, and 150,000 civilians were forced out of their homes, the report said.

Pointing to a map, 1st Lt. Robert Murray, last week highlighted a small Shiite village of 25 homes that was abandoned after a flurry of death threats came to town on small pieces of paper.

"The letters tell them if they don't leave in 48 hours, they'll kill their entire families," said Murray, 29, of Franklin, Mass. "It's happening a lot right now. There have been a lot of murders recently; between that and the kidnappings, they're making good on their threats. ... They need to learn to live together. I'd like to see it happen, but I don't know if it's possible."

Riding in a Humvee later that day, Capt. Jared Rudacille, Murray's commander in the 4th Infantry Division, noted the market of a town he was passing through. The stalls were all vacant. The nearby homes were empty. There wasn't a single civilian car on the road.

"Between 1,500 and 2,000 people have moved out," said Rudacille, 29, of York, Pa. "I now see only 15 or 20 people out during the day."

The following evening, 1st Lt. Corbett Baxter was showing a reporter the area, to the west of where Rudacille was, that he patrols.

"Half of my entire northern sector cleared out in a week, about 2,000 people," said Baxter, 25, of Fort Hood, Texas.

Staff Sgt. Wesley Ramon had a similar assessment while on patrol between the Sunni town of Abu Ghraib and Shula, a Shiite stronghold. The main bridge leading out of Shula was badly damaged recently by four bombs placed underneath it. Military officials think the bombers were Sunnis trying to stanch the flow of Shiite militia gunmen coming out of Shula to kill Sunnis.

"It's to the point of being irreconcilable; you know, we've found a lot of bodies, entire villages have been cleared out, we get reports of entire markets being gunned down - and if that's not a marker of a civil war, I don't know what is," said Ramon, 33, of San Antonio, Texas.

Driving back to his base, Johnson watched a long line of trucks and cars go by, packed with families fleeing their homes with everything they could carry: mattresses, clothes, furniture, and, in the back of some trucks, bricks to build another home.

"Every morning that we head back to the patrol base, this is all we see," Johnson said. "These are probably people who got threatened last night."

In Taji, an area north of Baghdad, where the roads between Sunni and Shiite villages have become killing fields, many soldiers said they saw little chance that things would get better.

"I don't think there's any winning here. Victory for us is withdrawing," said Sgt. James Ellis, 25, of Chicago. "In this part of the world they have been fighting for 3,000 years, and we're not going to fix it in three."

All of this can be laid directly at the feet of one george w. bush and the rest of the criminals in his administration, along with the neocon madmen whose plans for an "American Century" have led us to an American debacle instead.

That the people of the United States of America have NOT demanded accountability for the lies, mistakes, failures, corruption, and outright crimes these people have committed and indeed continue to profit from to this very day is an indictment of our entire nation.

Unless and until these criminals are all brought to justice expect nothing but more of the same. NO ONE can escape the consequences of their actions forever. Well, maybe Osama can but that's because America actually trusted the fool who led us off on this fool's errand in Iraq to "smoke him out" and get him "dead or alive" when in reality bush was busy planning to do to Iraq exactly what Osama did to the U.S. on 9/11. So instead we find ourselves stuck with the single worst mistake ever made by the single worst president in American history.

And America remains silent but that silence is deafening to the rest of humanity.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,115
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Originally posted by: Dari
Intelligence breeds arrogance. This war will bleed us dry.

The price of arrogance must be paid. If you break it you own it.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Dari
Intelligence breeds arrogance. This war will bleed us dry.

The price of arrogance must be paid. If you break it you own it.

Word.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Dari
Intelligence breeds arrogance. This war will bleed us dry.

The price of arrogance must be paid. If you break it you own it.

Word.

bush and cheney broke it. Why don't they pay for it along with their PNAC buddies?
 

tommywishbone

Platinum Member
May 11, 2005
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Madness. Every single person killed in Iraq, is a direct result of george w bush & his corrupt murderous administration. They should all be tried as war criminals and executed.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
Their planned worked like a charm, it's just not the plan they will tell you about. Iraq's future will be nothing short of a country at war with itself, controlled my a brutal regime who sells oil on the cheap to the USA.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,115
6,610
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Originally posted by: bamacre
Their planned worked like a charm, it's just not the plan they will tell you about. Iraq's future will be nothing short of a country at war with itself, controlled my a brutal regime who sells oil on the cheap to the USA.

Hopefully, the Iraqis will have other plans including market price for the oil. Iraqis are like all people everywhere and want a life for their kids.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,573
1
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OP, your troll post isn't really a solution at all. How does putting someone in jail help the situation in Iraq? That's not a solution, that's just the only thing that may calm your seething, irrational, vitriol filled hatred down to a point where you'll only have a vein pooping out of your forehead instead of an ulcer.

Come up with a REAL solution. Get your Bush hating candidates to do it soon, '08 is fast approaching.

It's been proven in the past, the "anybody but Bush" platform doesn't work.

I'm ready for somebody else in the white house to fix this mess, but we need someone with a plan that will work. The fact is, your whiny lib candidates have nothing to bring to the table. You just can't stop looking down your elitist nose long enough to see that.

Chop chop.

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: daveymark
OP, your troll post isn't really a solution at all. How does putting someone in jail help the situation in Iraq? That's not a solution, that's just the only thing that may calm your seething, irrational, vitriol filled hatred down to a point where you'll only have a vein pooping out of your forehead instead of an ulcer.

Come up with a REAL solution. Get your Bush hating candidates to do it soon, '08 is fast approaching.

It's been proven in the past, the "anybody but Bush" platform doesn't work.

I'm ready for somebody else in the white house to fix this mess, but we need someone with a plan that will work. The fact is, your whiny lib candidates have nothing to bring to the table. You just can't stop looking down your elitist nose long enough to see that.

Chop chop.

Your reaction IS the problem.

Look, when you recognize a mistake before you make it you save yourself the consequences of that mistake. When you ignore a mistake you subject yourself (and in this case our entire nation) to the consequences.

This administration is very fond of demanding that people are held ACCOUNTABLE for their mistakes -- except when those people are THEMSELVES.

We MUST hold those who are responsible for the crime of Iraq or we will NEVER be able to move forward. Fix the problem at its source, hold those responsible accountable, change leadership, change direction, only then can we even begin to hope to reach some conclusion to the fiasco bush has created.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Daveymark, you're line of reasoning is just abominable. You demand a solution from others to a nearly insolvable problem while you excuse the bush administration's absolute FAILURE due to their LIES.

Hold them accountable. Until that happens we can't even begin to work on a solution to what the almost impossible THEY CREATED.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,802
4,892
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Originally posted by: daveymark
OP, your troll post isn't really a solution at all. How does putting someone in jail help the situation in Iraq?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's called justice.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Originally posted by: tommywishbone
Madness. Every single person killed in Iraq, is a direct result of george w bush & his corrupt murderous administration. They should all be tried as war criminals and executed.


I'll Drink to that! We should auction off bushes ranch to help pay for putting Iraq back together again and his daddy also should help pay for the damages that his son has caused....
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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When the government fails to protect you---and there are at least two groups of us and them---its ineveitable that the us's will get together with the us's---and the thems will get
together with the thems---as they band together for common safety---which leads to gangs controlled by local warlords----who then begin to like the status quo, After a while they run out of the other group to loot---and turn to criminal activities.

Its also somewhat stable over time---and somewhat what happened in Europe from the fall of the Roman Empire until the day the modern centralised state really came on the scene.
We see it elsewhere---in Somalia---it was the fact of life in Afganistan and now is the fact of life again.---and in fact---it was the most prevalent form of government over the broad sweep of history.

And due to the US led bungled occupation its now reached critical mass with Sunni's and Shite gangs killing each other in huge numbers----put your self in their place---what would you do when that becomes the new reality---well they are doing just what you would do---which is banding together for common protection---and then it follows that you have to go out and kill that other side before they kill you-------and once that process starts---its very difficult to reverse.

But its still not civil war YET----we will all know it when civil war really breaks out---if you don't think various countries don't have contingency plans to arm the combatents---let them exterminate each other---and then pick up the pieces----you may be as naive as GWB&co.---who still thinks its just business as usual.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
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Originally posted by: daveymark
OP, your troll post isn't really a solution at all. How does putting someone in jail help the situation in Iraq? That's not a solution, that's just the only thing that may calm your seething, irrational, vitriol filled hatred down to a point where you'll only have a vein pooping out of your forehead instead of an ulcer.

Come up with a REAL solution. Get your Bush hating candidates to do it soon, '08 is fast approaching.

It's been proven in the past, the "anybody but Bush" platform doesn't work.

I'm ready for somebody else in the white house to fix this mess, but we need someone with a plan that will work. The fact is, your whiny lib candidates have nothing to bring to the table. You just can't stop looking down your elitist nose long enough to see that.

Chop chop.
Unfortunately your Zionist PNAC Neocons who hijacked the Republican Party haven't any solutions either. Of course they are the ones responisble for this mess so I don't think they should be rewarded by getting elected to another term.

 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
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Seems to me like Arabs just aren't ready to live in any regime other than a firm dictatorship. But I knew it already.
I wonder how long will it take you leftists before it hits you that NOT all people are equal and many of which don't value freedom as much as you think they do.

US should just find another dictator somewhere and put it in charge of Iraq, to get things going.

 

Buck Armstrong

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
2,015
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Maybe we should just bring back Saddam. As it turns out, it takes an iron fist just to keep these people from slaughtering each other over whose imaginary friend is the strongest.

Send half the troops the Army needs, let $9 billion of reconstruction money just blow away in the wind, and leave a fat, corrupt, murderous cleric in power when he directly attacks the US and does everything he can to destabilize the country. Bush's incompetence is astonishing. I am stunned by how badly he has fvcked up our world.
 

tommywishbone

Platinum Member
May 11, 2005
2,149
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It appears they are running out of people to kill, as they are blowing up people who are already dead. Mission accomplished.

Bomber kills 10 at funeral in Iraq By RAWYA RAGEH, Associated Press Writer, 42 minutes ago, Sunday.

TIKRIT, Iraq - A suicide bomber hit a funeral in Tikrit, killing at least 10 people and wounding 18, police said Sunday.

Elsewhere in Iraq, authorities lifted a partial curfew in Mosul, the country's third-largest city. The ban was lifted after authorities repulsed a series of attacks and rounded up dozens of suspects.

Ten people were killed elsewhere in Iraq in ongoing sectarian and political violence, police said, while several U.S. Marines were injured in a suicide bomb attack.

Heavy fighting erupted in Mosul Friday between security forces and insurgents, killing a police colonel and raising concern that insurgents were regrouping there.

Mosul, a predominantly Sunni city 225 miles northwest of Baghdad, was virtually overrun by insurgents in a November 2004 onslaught during which the city's entire 5,500-member police force fled their posts.

This time, the police stood their ground, boosting confidence that Iraqi forces can contain any rise in violence.

A Defense Ministry statement said 62 arrests had been made in northern Iraq since Saturday. The curfew had been imposed in the eastern part of Mosul, where much of Friday's fighting took place, but was lifted after order was restored, police chief Maj. Gen. Wathiq al-Hamdani said.

Friday's attack, which indicated a rearming of the militants, occurred as the U.S. Army's 172nd Brigade of 3,700 troops was moving out of Nineveh province, of which Mosul is the capital, to reinforce U.S. and Iraqi forces in Baghdad.

A new Stryker force from the U.S. 2nd Infantry Division has replaced the force sent to Baghdad.

Police estimated that 20 militants were killed in the Friday fighting. Only four bodies have been found. The fighting began after a car bomb killed a police colonel and three other policemen.

Another 10 suspected insurgents were arrested in other parts of the country, the statement said

Gunmen in Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, ambushed a convoy of Iraqi trucks, killing two drivers and setting their trucks on fire, said police Capt. Laith Mohammed said. A sniper shot dead a government security guard in southern Baghdad.

Police found the bodies of five men in Baghdad and one in the southeastern city of Amarah. All had been shot, police said.

A U.S. military statement said coalition forces killed one man during a raid north of Beiji, 155 miles north of Baghdad.

Also Sunday, police said a suicide bomber in a truck rammed into a house with U.S. soldiers inside in Fallujah, 45 miles west of Baghdad in Anbar province. A U.S. statement said "several Marines ... were injured and several vehicles damaged" when a vehicle exploded in a suicide attack in Anbar province. It did not elaborate.

___

Associated Press correspondent Sinan Salaheddin and Qais al-Bashir contributed to this report.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Seems to me like Arabs just aren't ready to live in any regime other than a firm dictatorship. But I knew it already.
I wonder how long will it take you leftists before it hits you that NOT all people are equal and many of which don't value freedom as much as you think they do.

US should just find another dictator somewhere and put it in charge of Iraq, to get things going.

Yeah, racist generalizations!

I'm not sure Iraq is the best model here, given the history of the country...but hey, whatever supports your racism, eh?
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
Iraq will go down the same road now as yugoslavia did before. Iraq is an unatural country and now that its ruthless dictator has been removed, it's inevitable that it separate into 3 ethnically segregated regions. Expect lot's of upheaval and civilian deaths in the process.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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Had to love it when Condi Rice was on this week today ----calmly discussing declining to comment on the hypotheticals of a Iraqi civil war. Which is very much like an observer on a hill above a dam about to burst---as she peers down at the little people at the base of the dam who will just get washed away in a massive flood---lets see---will the dam burst happen in five more minutes---or maybe tomorrow---what me worry---I am above the fray. Of course from the US perspective---we have well over a 100K of our military men and women at the base of the dam also----and they are likely to just get washed away also.--------and for once Condi will be speechless---as she watches in the horror that is likely if Iraq and the whole Mid-East explode.--------of course its not politically useful if you can't sum it up in a few words---something like Nero fiddled while Rome burned---or you are doing a heck of a job Brownie.

Maybe something like you Bungle a crisis with the Secretatary of State you have at the time-------or maybe Condi gets her commuppance?
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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kindasleazy rice doesn't care about anything as long as her name is still on that oil tanker.
 

Jamie571

Senior member
Nov 7, 2002
267
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Originally posted by: tommywishbone
Madness. Every single person killed in Iraq, is a direct result of george w bush & his corrupt murderous administration. They should all be tried as war criminals and executed.

I don't think he had anything to do with the thousands of Kurds killed by chemical weapons or the hundreds killed in the Iran/Iraq war.