No, but our government did...and some of the people involved in that fiasco are the same people running things today. Good old Rummy is an excellent example.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
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Rumsfeld said back in April of '05 that 'we have no exit strategy, we have a victory strategy'
I think this is not the only time he said that... but that has always been the strategy... victory of some sort or another
If that is still true today that we've no exit strategy other than victory then what does victory mean? Not victory itself but our leadership's use of that term. It seems to me that Victory could be claimed in the elimination of the WMD and the stopping the 45 day clock for their use or the toppling of SH or the installation of a government in Iraq or anything really...
So why not proclaim Victory and leave...??
I know Bush et. al. had an exit strategy for Vietnam and avoided blood shed there so why not now... let's leave now and let Iraq devolve to what ever it becomes. Maybe give it back to SH under the pretext that the real problem were his kids... anything.. but what we have now..
I think this is not the only time he said that... but that has always been the strategy... victory of some sort or another
If that is still true today that we've no exit strategy other than victory then what does victory mean? Not victory itself but our leadership's use of that term. It seems to me that Victory could be claimed in the elimination of the WMD and the stopping the 45 day clock for their use or the toppling of SH or the installation of a government in Iraq or anything really...
So why not proclaim Victory and leave...??
I know Bush et. al. had an exit strategy for Vietnam and avoided blood shed there so why not now... let's leave now and let Iraq devolve to what ever it becomes. Maybe give it back to SH under the pretext that the real problem were his kids... anything.. but what we have now..
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
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A few years ago on this forum that exact prediction was made and scoffed at by many members who hoped the flower toting civilians would carry the day... but it is just so danged obvious that what you stated would happen I can't imagine our intellegent folks didn't visit the ME desk and ask for opinion if not analysis.
The only thing that kept the civil war from occuring when SH was in power was SH. More folks of one side may have been persecuted with him but in total I fear more will die under this 'new' regime... equal opportunity and survival of the strongest seems not to have been in keeping with 'freedom for all Iraqi"...
I wonder who supplied the chemical weapons....
Hint:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saddam_rumsfeld.jpg
Wiki
You break it you own it morally. You can't toss it in the trash and not be guilty for what happens. We owe Iraq a sovereign nation what ever it costs us. Later we can try the bastards that broke it in the Hague.
The leadership, or lack thereof, described here is prevailant throughout the majority of most governments. Both civilian and military. Military leadership has been in the decline ever since it was heavily politicised after WWII.
This is an issue to many nations, not just the US. Primarily in a Democracy from what I have seen. Perhaps I'm wrong in this part. Perhaps it's the same everywhere.
I have served as both a rank and file soldier in the Canadian Armed Forces as well as more recently as a rank and file contracted public service employee. Under both systems I seen the politicaly motivated leaders and the true leaders.
True leaders are in very short supply. You can thank the system for making it the most rewarding to those who pooch screw everybody else to get ahead while the true leaders generally are either left behind, if they are lucky, or outright forced out.
I'm one of those increadibly dedicated, can do attitude, type of guys who was systematically undermined due to lack of leadership from above and eventually forced out. Truth is if this was WWII I would probably have been one of the most successful people there. Times change.
So what I'm saying is that the system in place is what is causing the problem. It gives the types of people who are inclined by political motivations and doing career management to get ahead. So when the ****** hits the fan these people fall flat on their face and constantly look to pass blame on anyone they can.
I hate these people.
This is an issue to many nations, not just the US. Primarily in a Democracy from what I have seen. Perhaps I'm wrong in this part. Perhaps it's the same everywhere.
I have served as both a rank and file soldier in the Canadian Armed Forces as well as more recently as a rank and file contracted public service employee. Under both systems I seen the politicaly motivated leaders and the true leaders.
True leaders are in very short supply. You can thank the system for making it the most rewarding to those who pooch screw everybody else to get ahead while the true leaders generally are either left behind, if they are lucky, or outright forced out.
I'm one of those increadibly dedicated, can do attitude, type of guys who was systematically undermined due to lack of leadership from above and eventually forced out. Truth is if this was WWII I would probably have been one of the most successful people there. Times change.
So what I'm saying is that the system in place is what is causing the problem. It gives the types of people who are inclined by political motivations and doing career management to get ahead. So when the ****** hits the fan these people fall flat on their face and constantly look to pass blame on anyone they can.
I hate these people.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Well... gee... To get Iraq to be at one with itself requires elimination of two thirds the people it seems.. not too morally sound if you ask me. They don't like each other at all. We can't just stay there and make Iraq our dependent protectorate can we? They are gonna continue this 'civil war' until the superior numbers win out and then still more violence will occur until there is either no reason to kill or divine intervention or maybe some other intervention makes it happen.
It is broke now and was broke before we came.. we took the only means to avoid this 'civil war' away as a human rights violator and created a million more.. Are we really that dumb and if so are we smart enough to mend the morally shattered endeavor?
EDIT: I forgot the salient point..heheheh Iraq WAS a sovereign nation before we invaded. So if we return it to its status quo... is all forgiven?
Are we a morally superior culture to what exists in Iraq? Is we are perhaps in the least we could destroy their culture and replace it with our own. But we will have to revoke our promise of democracy and lay down the law. Perhaps we should annex it as the 51st state and bring all the children here, let the adults die of old age and then let the kids go back.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Morally superior.... hmmmmm on what basis is that evaluated... Our culture deems itself to be morally superior cuz we founded it upon the foundation of Freedom for the diverse people we are to be diverse and co-exist amongst ourselves with respect for one another... In essence, to love our neighbor as we love ourselves... Sorta what Jesus said was the 2nd greatest commandment (matt 23 I think) the one of two that all the law is based on and the words of the prophets etc.. But, Iraq don't much take Jesus to be their means to heaven and that IS their objective and little else matters. So freedom to them is meaningless from our perspective. Martyrdom is preferred to what the West would have... I think..
I tend to want to think that the Iraqi perspective is not, perhaps, a perspective I have, and therefore try to consider the notion that it may be not that different from my own. I prefer to think we are all the same, Jesus included. I think the love of life is our natural state and that martyrdom and the desire for it an aberration not part of the wish of a healthy mind or an Islamic mind for that matter. I think children tend to want to live, grow, learn, and explore this infinite wonderful existence we've been given and that sane adults owe them that. I know nothing, but I know what I would do in my infinite ignorance. I would bow before those who want to kill their children, acknowledge the possible superiority of their view point, and then I would do what I could to kill them if that's what it would finally require to make them stop. We turned Iraq into hell. We need to fix it and part of our atonement for what we have done should include the impeachment of Bush.
All this talk of breaking... What if they (the Bush administration) break the US (some say they have already) - do they own the US then too? And what if they do not have any morals but are criminally insane?
Are you kidding? Once they bankrupt this country, they're off to their resort island(s) with all their money while they laughingly tell the rest of us "Have fun kids--wouldn't want to be you!"
Whoa, hold on, what about democracy, I thought you where the main democratic prophet around here? Oh, wait, nevermind...
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Moonbeam,
[/quote]I tend to want to think that the Iraqi perspective is not, perhaps, a perspective I have, and therefore try to consider the notion that it may be not that different from my own. I prefer to think we are all the same, Jesus included. I think the love of life is our natural state and that martyrdom and the desire for it an aberration not part of the wish of a healthy mind or an Islamic mind for that matter. I think children tend to want to live, grow, learn, and explore this infinite wonderful existence we've been given and that sane adults owe them that. I know nothing, but I know what I would do in my infinite ignorance. I would bow before those who want to kill their children, acknowledge the possible superiority of their view point, and then I would do what I could to kill them if that's what it would finally require to make them stop. We turned Iraq into hell. We need to fix it and part of our atonement for what we have done should include the impeachment of Bush.[/quote]
I think I'd agree that the human species could be unified as you indicate but the minds of the various 'cultures' have been 'tuned' to what we see about us today. It has taken many many centuries for this evolution to occur. Their minds have been 'brainwashed' as have all of ours to believe as we do. Even here in the US we are individually part of 'sub-cultures' and go to extreme action to insure what we believe is forced upon every other member of the Great Melting Pot, the US. This in spite of the basis we hold dear - freedom.
Iraqi are no different in their mental process. What we observe about the Iraqi or any other people is who they are.. their 'Culture'. The word 'culture' defines the deviation from the ideal human mind set. Or at least it does for me.
It seems to me that the Iraqi are motivated to killing people, theirs or anyone else, by the belief they have militarized or subverted or perverted out of their religious beliefs. No different than Crusaders marching to the Moor held lands a few years back. This mind set cannot be altered by providing a more ideal form of living (from my perspective). We see them as killing and denying human rights and they see themselves as ridding their land of the heretic or worse.
If we did as you suggested and replant folks brain washed by our notions then sure that would put a new thinking in Iraq but it would have to be complete with all the support systems to enable our system of belief to flourish there. But jeepers then we'd be terminating an entire population to effect what we believe is the proper human mind set. It may be or may not be. Jesus didn't say 'over turn Cesar' he said to give him what is his etc.. Societies and Religion are not the same IMO. We cannot undo or redo so we should let do..
[/quote]I tend to want to think that the Iraqi perspective is not, perhaps, a perspective I have, and therefore try to consider the notion that it may be not that different from my own. I prefer to think we are all the same, Jesus included. I think the love of life is our natural state and that martyrdom and the desire for it an aberration not part of the wish of a healthy mind or an Islamic mind for that matter. I think children tend to want to live, grow, learn, and explore this infinite wonderful existence we've been given and that sane adults owe them that. I know nothing, but I know what I would do in my infinite ignorance. I would bow before those who want to kill their children, acknowledge the possible superiority of their view point, and then I would do what I could to kill them if that's what it would finally require to make them stop. We turned Iraq into hell. We need to fix it and part of our atonement for what we have done should include the impeachment of Bush.[/quote]
I think I'd agree that the human species could be unified as you indicate but the minds of the various 'cultures' have been 'tuned' to what we see about us today. It has taken many many centuries for this evolution to occur. Their minds have been 'brainwashed' as have all of ours to believe as we do. Even here in the US we are individually part of 'sub-cultures' and go to extreme action to insure what we believe is forced upon every other member of the Great Melting Pot, the US. This in spite of the basis we hold dear - freedom.
Iraqi are no different in their mental process. What we observe about the Iraqi or any other people is who they are.. their 'Culture'. The word 'culture' defines the deviation from the ideal human mind set. Or at least it does for me.
It seems to me that the Iraqi are motivated to killing people, theirs or anyone else, by the belief they have militarized or subverted or perverted out of their religious beliefs. No different than Crusaders marching to the Moor held lands a few years back. This mind set cannot be altered by providing a more ideal form of living (from my perspective). We see them as killing and denying human rights and they see themselves as ridding their land of the heretic or worse.
If we did as you suggested and replant folks brain washed by our notions then sure that would put a new thinking in Iraq but it would have to be complete with all the support systems to enable our system of belief to flourish there. But jeepers then we'd be terminating an entire population to effect what we believe is the proper human mind set. It may be or may not be. Jesus didn't say 'over turn Cesar' he said to give him what is his etc.. Societies and Religion are not the same IMO. We cannot undo or redo so we should let do..
I tend to want to think that the Iraqi perspective is not, perhaps, a perspective I have, and therefore try to consider the notion that it may be not that different from my own. I prefer to think we are all the same, Jesus included. I think the love of life is our natural state and that martyrdom and the desire for it an aberration not part of the wish of a healthy mind or an Islamic mind for that matter. I think children tend to want to live, grow, learn, and explore this infinite wonderful existence we've been given and that sane adults owe them that. I know nothing, but I know what I would do in my infinite ignorance. I would bow before those who want to kill their children, acknowledge the possible superiority of their view point, and then I would do what I could to kill them if that's what it would finally require to make them stop. We turned Iraq into hell. We need to fix it and part of our atonement for what we have done should include the impeachment of Bush.[/quote]
I think I'd agree that the human species could be unified as you indicate but the minds of the various 'cultures' have been 'tuned' to what we see about us today. It has taken many many centuries for this evolution to occur. Their minds have been 'brainwashed' as have all of ours to believe as we do. Even here in the US we are individually part of 'sub-cultures' and go to extreme action to insure what we believe is forced upon every other member of the Great Melting Pot, the US. This in spite of the basis we hold dear - freedom.
Iraqi are no different in their mental process. What we observe about the Iraqi or any other people is who they are.. their 'Culture'. The word 'culture' defines the deviation from the ideal human mind set. Or at least it does for me.
It seems to me that the Iraqi are motivated to killing people, theirs or anyone else, by the belief they have militarized or subverted or perverted out of their religious beliefs. No different than Crusaders marching to the Moor held lands a few years back. This mind set cannot be altered by providing a more ideal form of living (from my perspective). We see them as killing and denying human rights and they see themselves as ridding their land of the heretic or worse.
If we did as you suggested and replant folks brain washed by our notions then sure that would put a new thinking in Iraq but it would have to be complete with all the support systems to enable our system of belief to flourish there. But jeepers then we'd be terminating an entire population to effect what we believe is the proper human mind set. It may be or may not be. Jesus didn't say 'over turn Cesar' he said to give him what is his etc.. Societies and Religion are not the same IMO. We cannot undo or redo so we should let do..[/quote]
One must try to let go of what can be let go of. One can't let go of one's basic humanity and remain human. A chimp is doomed by his Chimpness to protect his or her young with his or her life. One chimp can't say to another, go ahead and kill your kids any more than we can allow the criminally insane to wonder the streets. We let these monsters out of their cages and now we have to put them back.
George Bush as our leader got us into a disaster. Your job is to see to it that he and his supporters pay via any lawful means you can. But as our leader, he got us, the US, in this mess. We are now obligated to do whatever we can to fix it because he managed to steal the presidency and we let him. LunarRay thinks the best we can do is leave but I think it's only the best for us and not them. I think we own Iraq an end to violence, if need be by the force of massive presence.
I tend to want to think that the Iraqi perspective is not, perhaps, a perspective I have, and therefore try to consider the notion that it may be not that different from my own. I prefer to think we are all the same, Jesus included. I think the love of life is our natural state and that martyrdom and the desire for it an aberration not part of the wish of a healthy mind or an Islamic mind for that matter. I think children tend to want to live, grow, learn, and explore this infinite wonderful existence we've been given and that sane adults owe them that. I know nothing, but I know what I would do in my infinite ignorance. I would bow before those who want to kill their children, acknowledge the possible superiority of their view point, and then I would do what I could to kill them if that's what it would finally require to make them stop. We turned Iraq into hell. We need to fix it and part of our atonement for what we have done should include the impeachment of Bush.[/quote]
I think I'd agree that the human species could be unified as you indicate but the minds of the various 'cultures' have been 'tuned' to what we see about us today. It has taken many many centuries for this evolution to occur. Their minds have been 'brainwashed' as have all of ours to believe as we do. Even here in the US we are individually part of 'sub-cultures' and go to extreme action to insure what we believe is forced upon every other member of the Great Melting Pot, the US. This in spite of the basis we hold dear - freedom.
Iraqi are no different in their mental process. What we observe about the Iraqi or any other people is who they are.. their 'Culture'. The word 'culture' defines the deviation from the ideal human mind set. Or at least it does for me.
It seems to me that the Iraqi are motivated to killing people, theirs or anyone else, by the belief they have militarized or subverted or perverted out of their religious beliefs. No different than Crusaders marching to the Moor held lands a few years back. This mind set cannot be altered by providing a more ideal form of living (from my perspective). We see them as killing and denying human rights and they see themselves as ridding their land of the heretic or worse.
If we did as you suggested and replant folks brain washed by our notions then sure that would put a new thinking in Iraq but it would have to be complete with all the support systems to enable our system of belief to flourish there. But jeepers then we'd be terminating an entire population to effect what we believe is the proper human mind set. It may be or may not be. Jesus didn't say 'over turn Cesar' he said to give him what is his etc.. Societies and Religion are not the same IMO. We cannot undo or redo so we should let do..[/quote]
Furthermore, we evolved over centuries, true, but our children inherit our centuries old evolved culture in 18 or so years. 20 years of enforced peace in Iraq with a just system of law and order could radically evolve the Iraqi mindset is a single generation. The Aborigine in Australia leaped forward ten thousand years is a few brief decades. Each child is born with infinite potential and will probably fit in nicely with things ten thousand years from now, assuming of course that we don't decide to take control of our own evolution and become creatures that eat star dust and move to galactic space.
One can surrender to what is or one can try to consciously change it. Each road is fraught with peril. In the former the ego denies responsibility letting things go to hell and in the latter it takes over and destroys everything creating hell. This is why we have to practice being as honest as we can and to try to know who we are and what unconsciously impels our actions if that is what is going on.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Yes Moonbeam.. we should if we could ... go to Iraq and create the freedom that enables all Iraqi to live and worship and be human to its greatest potential. My feeling is that we won't do that because we can't. We don't have the resources of both manpower nor the will of the people to do it.
The folks who started this either had no clue about the reality that would occur or they did and expected another Bin Laden type event to get the support and it didn't happen. I suppose a third possibility exists and that is they are really idealists dreaming.
My position is that we can't do what you suggest so we should do the next best thing and return Iraq to its status quo ante and let the pieces fall where they may. We did start it all true and we broke it but to fix it is beyond our ability, I think..
The folks who started this either had no clue about the reality that would occur or they did and expected another Bin Laden type event to get the support and it didn't happen. I suppose a third possibility exists and that is they are really idealists dreaming.
My position is that we can't do what you suggest so we should do the next best thing and return Iraq to its status quo ante and let the pieces fall where they may. We did start it all true and we broke it but to fix it is beyond our ability, I think..
Beyond our ability or no, I think the greater wrong is not to try. We just sent more troops to Baghdad, we need I think to send more. We beat the Germans and the Japanese. We can right this too. We need to know what we fight for, the freedom of the human race to have its children grow up in peace. To go extinct in the service of justice isn't so bad a fate, all in all. There is more than one way to strap on a bomb. What once may have been a fools idealism is not a matter of debt in my opinion. Practicality flew out the window when Bush became President. We screwed the world when we allowed that joker his office and now we have to pay. We must stand before the world and pay our honor debt.
what if you are incapable of fixing it? sometimes its time to get your ass out of other peoples business and let them settle it..
i always think..what if someone came here to 'liberate' us from bush?
we wouldnt like it , and we wouldnt put up with it...even though I hate him I would still help my neighbors to fight off invaders and i am mainly a pacifist...I just dont buy it that we can make the world better by this type of war of aggression
That's a racist and sarcastic remark coming from a Jew/Israeli. Israel just destroyed one of the newest and most vibrant democracies in the ME and you have the gumption to speak like that? You are either arrogant or stupid, maybe both.
As a matter of fact, Bush went into Iraq with lies and half-truths. His analysts were warning him of exactly what is happening right now and he went there anyway, supposedly to remove a regime that threatened America. However, as we all know, Bush went in to protect Israel more and "privatize" Iraqi oil. Unfortunately, his grand plans have become unravelled and Israel is in even more danger because instead of having a self-serving dictatorship, you may now have an extremist theocracy adjacent to Iran that will be an even bigger threat to Israel and America.
So you see, the Arabs are smarter than you give them credit for. They saw right through Bush's plans and are doing the exact opposite of what he intended. You can't bring democracy with bombs.
Can anyone show me how the US now controls Iraqi oil? It still sells on the open market to any country who wants to buy it. I do agree that oil is a concern to the US and every other industrialized country, but look at the other big consumers. China considers it's citizens as a national resourse for the controlling powers, India is a just country from what I can tell. If you tally up the wealth of the countries involved (oil producers), it looks a lot like a few countries with energy resources are trying to extranct enormous wealth for its wealthy, including the US, but anyone CAN become wealthy in the US, what other country can say that? All this distracts from the other wealthy ME countries. The religious insane are held impoversished, by there own countries, not the US. Look at OPEC and where there countries wealth in concentrated. We are looking at economic terrorism just the same are military terrorism.
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