Iran deal reached

[nickqt]

Thank you. The middle ground is a Neocon holding pattern until they find a pretext for war.

It's gotta be great being a war profiteer in this country. Even when we lose, they still get paid & they're not risking their own wealth, either.

Oh, and contracting services to the VA is like residuals on a movie contract.

You're mostly correct.

War profiteers in the US never lose.

It's why we've been at war for the past, oh, 230 years.

The war profiteer dollar is a good dollar.

 

[DrPizza]

You're mostly correct.

War profiteers in the US never lose.

It's why we've been at war for the past, oh, 230 years.

The war profiteer dollar is a good dollar.

222 out of 239 years

 

[brycejones]

Watch the video and Listen for your self.

I have and I don't agree with you. So you might have to put forth a little effort to support your position. If you're unwilling or unable to do that then I think we have a pretty clear answer about how solid your position really is.

 

[Chaotic0ne]

Sorry to spoil anyone's party, but I'm not sure what the problem here is? Looking at who's against the deal such as rabid, foaming at the mouth neocons like John McCain who'd just assume nuke Iran; I say the deal can't be that bad.

And lets just cut right through the bullcrap here and stop lying to ourselves about Iran being a massive threat to the USA - nope. They're Israel's problem, not ours. And I say the Israelis and Iranians should duke it out and leave the rest of the damn world out of it. And ISIS? Who cares? They're over there, and we're over here. Oh!!! But that's right!! ISIS just attacked us!? Has anyone noticed a pattern of every middle eastern male terrorist being labeled an Al Queda or ISIS affiliate? With absolutely no basis in fact for that claim?

Hypothetical scenario, another crazy Middle Eastern man makes an attack on some target, media claims he's an Iranian operative with not a shred of evidence (Looks at Fox News), and then they use the tragedy to drum up support for a war against a Nation who hasn't invaded anyone in over 200 years. But.....but.....death to America, right? So a little bravado suddenly means they're going to exterminate America? Are people really that reactionary? I think people have been trained not just how to think, but how to react.

They can sort their own problems out, why does the USA have to be the world's freaking police force? That's gotta come to an end at some point.

Ron Paul and Donald Trump are the only 2 people in politics I've heard say anything that makes any sense. I don't like Trump's foreign policy agenda, but his domestic agenda is solid. I love how he called John McCain out and said he isn't a hero. He cowered before the enemy and surrendered. Heroes were the ones rushing down Nazi machine gun turrents on D day. And John McCain would just assume send Americans to run down Iranian machine gun turrets, something he never had the balls to do himself just so Israelis don't have to sacrifice any young hebrews to fight their own battles. And Iranians are the new nazis......at least that's what the media would have us believe. I went to college with a few Iranians, and I got along well with them. None of them fit the stereotype.

 

[werepossum]

Because the sanctions are hurting other nations like China and India who, unlike the US, did use to buy oil from Iran, and their resolve is weakening. If Iran doesn't cave to pressure from the sanctions long enough to develop nukes, at that point all sanctions go away because they become moot. Some countries may drop out even before that. Remember, sanctions from the US are not an issue for Iran because we didn't buy their oil or much of anything from them.

While there are risks to this deal, the risks of maintaining the status quo, which is maintaining the sanctions, are much higher. We're counting on a regime who is already going to lose some face with this deal to make even greater concessions when they know all they have to do is make a b-line to get nukes, at which point the sanctions will go away. If the hardliners in Iran, the people who hate the US the most and are most in favor of sponsoring terrorism, oppose this deal, that should be telling us something.

This deal is the least bad alternative, and it's a no brainer. If Iran gives up 70% of its centrifuges, it's physically impossible for this not to at least slow them down.

I don't honestly understand the opposition to this unless it is purely political. I would support this deal regardless of which party is in power.

The dirty little secret in this deal is that everyone hates Israel and Israel is Iran's target of choice. A greater threat to Israel is an acceptable risk to allow Russia, China, Germany and France et al to make money on Iran and Obama to have a legacy. Personally I doubt Iran nukes Israel as soon as they get the bomb and a delivery system; I'm guessing the intent will be to allow them to expand support for terrorist attacks while being protected against Israeli military action. Sending the world into war to bring the Mahdi is a threat, but I suspect among Iran's leadership there will always be a majority who would prefer that the Mahdi be summoned by nuclear fire well after their own time.

An atmospheric nuclear burst over America is a huge threat, but this deal may make that less likely. We'll be closely monitoring what moves in and out of (and within) Iran, so such a bomb (and ship to deliver it, as there is little chance of Iran firing such a missile without being noticed) is more likely in my view to originate in Pakistan or even North Korea.

I neither support nor oppose this treaty because I don't think it makes it materially more or less difficult for Iran to develop a nuclear weapon and appropriate delivery systems. Sanctions can't stop them, it can only make the process painful. This way can't stop them either, but it gives them something they stand to lose (in theory anyway) if they complete the process. I don't see how we're any worse off, and we might be better off. Wish we have stuck to our guns in requiring the any time, any place inspections (14 days' notice in insane) but I suspect Iran would have simply said no anyway if they wished something to not be inspected and the member nations would not have wanted to cut off business relationships for such a small infraction.

 

[norseamd]

The dirty little secret in this deal is that everyone hates Israel and Israel is Iran's target of choice. A greater threat to Israel is an acceptable risk to allow Russia, China, Germany and France et al to make money on Iran and Obama to have a legacy. Personally I doubt Iran nukes Israel as soon as they get the bomb and a delivery system; I'm guessing the intent will be to allow them to expand support for terrorist attacks while being protected against Israeli military action. Sending the world into war to bring the Mahdi is a threat, but I suspect among Iran's leadership there will always be a majority who would prefer that the Mahdi be summoned by nuclear fire well after their own time.

An atmospheric nuclear burst over America is a huge threat, but this deal may make that less likely. We'll be closely monitoring what moves in and out of (and within) Iran, so such a bomb (and ship to deliver it, as there is little chance of Iran firing such a missile without being noticed) is more likely in my view to originate in Pakistan or even North Korea.

I neither support nor oppose this treaty because I don't think it makes it materially more or less difficult for Iran to develop a nuclear weapon and appropriate delivery systems. Sanctions can't stop them, it can only make the process painful. This way can't stop them either, but it gives them something they stand to lose (in theory anyway) if they complete the process. I don't see how we're any worse off, and we might be better off. Wish we have stuck to our guns in requiring the any time, any place inspections (14 days' notice in insane) but I suspect Iran would have simply said no anyway if they wished something to not be inspected and the member nations would not have wanted to cut off business relationships for such a small infraction.

Did you watch the video I put up earlier in this discussion?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t13zN8smvkE

Plus these also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxn2Qs7CpPQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEC9uM1h4i0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU1NKgtOYOI

Also watch this video and then compare what this video was about with the current comments from over 1350 years later and put that all into understanding and perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jq0damMgUU

Plus here is some more video from Stratfor. Have to tell you that Stratfor is a very shady company and you can not trust them in any way but their low level video is probably safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ClfNCvMkMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs5Tru1owss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBe41fIIX2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtg_xkkQILM

 

[Jhhnn]

The dirty little secret in this deal is that everyone hates Israel and Israel is Iran's target of choice. A greater threat to Israel is an acceptable risk to allow Russia, China, Germany and France et al to make money on Iran and Obama to have a legacy. Personally I doubt Iran nukes Israel as soon as they get the bomb and a delivery system; I'm guessing the intent will be to allow them to expand support for terrorist attacks while being protected against Israeli military action. Sending the world into war to bring the Mahdi is a threat, but I suspect among Iran's leadership there will always be a majority who would prefer that the Mahdi be summoned by nuclear fire well after their own time.

An atmospheric nuclear burst over America is a huge threat, but this deal may make that less likely. We'll be closely monitoring what moves in and out of (and within) Iran, so such a bomb (and ship to deliver it, as there is little chance of Iran firing such a missile without being noticed) is more likely in my view to originate in Pakistan or even North Korea.

I neither support nor oppose this treaty because I don't think it makes it materially more or less difficult for Iran to develop a nuclear weapon and appropriate delivery systems. Sanctions can't stop them, it can only make the process painful. This way can't stop them either, but it gives them something they stand to lose (in theory anyway) if they complete the process. I don't see how we're any worse off, and we might be better off. Wish we have stuck to our guns in requiring the any time, any place inspections (14 days' notice in insane) but I suspect Iran would have simply said no anyway if they wished something to not be inspected and the member nations would not have wanted to cut off business relationships for such a small infraction.

Excellent FUD under a thin veneer of simulated rationality. Begin from the "Poor Israel!" meme, create speculative fear mongering scenarios wherein Iran *will* get the bomb, where suicidal fools will attack this country with nuclear weapons, go on to claim that mothballing facilities & downblending stocks of LEU won't materially degrade the potential for breakout. Bemoan the 14 day inspection notification period on the assumption that an unauthorized nuclear production facility can be disguised or dismantled in 2 weeks.

It's a weaving of bunk claims into the usual tapestry of suspicion & fear that Righties love so much.

 

[Chaotic0ne]

Excellent FUD under a thin veneer of simulated rationality. Begin from the "Poor Israel!" meme, create speculative fear mongering scenarios wherein Iran *will* get the bomb, where suicidal fools will attack this country with nuclear weapons, go on to claim that mothballing facilities & downblending stocks of LEU won't materially degrade the potential for breakout. Bemoan the 14 day inspection notification period on the assumption that an unauthorized nuclear production facility can be disguised or dismantled in 2 weeks.

It's a weaving of bunk claims into the usual tapestry of suspicion & fear that Righties love so much.

The Iranians aren't stupid, they're relatively cultured and modern for a country in that region of the world. They're certainly not going to suicide their entire nation because.....d....dea....death to Israel/America!

This is about maintaining Zionist hegemony in the region more than them being a direct military threat to the USA. The neocons know that if Iran gets nukes then the US and Israel will no longer be able to bully their way around in that region of the world. The US doesn't traditionally attack nuclear armed nations directly. Iran getting nukes means their little gig in the middle east will be coming to a close. I say its about damn time we pull out of that region that's nothing but a money and blood pit that does absolutely nothing to benefit everyday citizens. The solution to these endless wars is pretty simple.

Besides, what the hell has Israel given the USA? Up to this point they've been like the annoying guy at work who's always asking to bum a smoke but never has anything when you need something. The best and only argument I've heard as to why we should back Israel is b....bu....but!! They're gods chosen! Well, I say the chosenites can fend for themselves.

 

[michal1980]

The Iranians aren't stupid, they're relatively cultured and modern for a country in that region of the world. They're certainly not going to suicide their entire nation because.....d....dea....death to Israel/America!

This is about maintaining Zionist hegemony in the region more than them being a direct military threat to the USA. The neocons know that if Iran gets nukes then the US and Israel will no longer be able to bully their way around in that region of the world. The US doesn't traditionally attack nuclear armed nations directly. Iran getting nukes means their little gig in the middle east will be coming to a close. I say its about damn time we pull out of that region that's nothing but a money and blood pit that does absolutely nothing to benefit everyday citizens. The solution to these endless wars is pretty simple.

Besides, what the hell has Israel given the USA? Up to this point they've been like the annoying guy at work who's always asking to bum a smoke but never has anything when you need something. The best and only argument I've heard as to why we should back Israel is b....bu....but!! They're gods chosen! Well, I say the chosenites can fend for themselves.

finally a lib that comes out and admits it. They want Iran having a nuke.

Its amazing how much hate the left has for America.

PS I heard ISIS is hiring they are looking for some 'I hate America' types, maybe you should volunteer. Fight the power.

 

[cubby1223]

The neocons know that if Iran gets nukes then the US and Israel will no longer be able to bully their way around in that region of the world.

Just like Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, & Finlandians are sick and tired of the U.S. bullying the region

Besides, what the hell has Israel given the USA? Up to this point they've been like the annoying guy at work who's always asking to bum a smoke but never has anything when you need something. The best and only argument I've heard as to why we should back Israel is b....bu....but!! They're gods chosen! Well, I say the chosenites can fend for themselves.

Interesting. Interesting because I've never seen that argument ever made except by you. Please do expand on your feelings for the forum. And don't be shy about holding back on any details!

 

[Chaotic0ne]

Interesting. Interesting because I've never seen that argument ever made except by you. Please do expand on your feelings for the forum. And don't be shy about holding back on any details!

I was hoping someone would make a compelling argument as to why we should be supporting Israel that doesn't revolve around religious canards. You probably haven't heard it before because most people don't think independently. All I'm doing is asking the question of "why" should we support them? And what do we personally have to gain from such an alliance?

I can think of several things we could potentially gain from an Iranian alliance:

-They have a strong market for a country in that region with a huge demand for US products. We could trade with them and come out on top.
-They also possess oil and other commodities that we could benefit in trade from.
-And if it ever becomes necessary, the Iranians are in a better location strategically than Israel is.

Downsides of the US/Israeli alliance:

-They're getting too much foreign aid in the form of $3b/year + sweetheart deals on weapons that no doubt cost the US tax payer even more money. Oh and emergency aid packages....
-We're making enemies out of a whole lot of nations in the region, some of which are larger and stronger economically than Israel is - such as Iran.
-Considering the above, I can't think of any compelling economic or strategic reasons where Israel would offer us more benefit than allying with Iran would.
-And if someone wants to make this about morals, fine. By allying with Israel, the US is condoning genocide of Palestinians, while at the same time having the temerity to sit on a pulpit and preach "human rights" to countries committing less atrocities than their greatest ally is. The US has used their veto power unilaterally in the UN to coddle Israel from war crimes accusations and investigations. And I say truth doesn't fear investigation, but Israel appears incredibly butthurt over the idea.

finally a lib that comes out and admits it. They want Iran having a nuke.

I'm a Libertarian by the way. Its none of our damn business whether or not Iran pursues nuclear weapons. Its irrelevant to me personally. I'm not one of the paranoid delusional types who thinks wave after wave of nuclear suicide bombers is going to attack the US if Iran gets a nuclear weapon. The last time Iran invaded someone was 214 years ago. In relative terms, they're a more peaceful country than most of Europe if you overlook the occasional bravado coming from its leadership.

I think its the Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Lindsey Graham, Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz, John McCain, Jeb Bush, Rand Paul (I like his dad) etc type "Conservatives" who are the worst. If one of them happens to be the Republican nominee, I'm not even gonna bother voting.

Just like Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, & Finlandians are sick and tired of the U.S. bullying the region

Ukraine is in the middle of a civil war because the USA decided to get involved in the region. They supported the Maidanist movement, courtesy of Victoria Nuland, which threw that country into chaos. All for the sake of keeping that country from turning pro-Russian. These silly, pointless proxy wars need to end. Another conflict started by warmongering neoconservatives who'd sacrifice as many Ukraininans as necessary to maintain geopolitical influence in that region.

 

[brycejones]

finally a lib that comes out and admits it. They want Iran having a nuke.

Its amazing how much hate the left has for America.

PS I heard ISIS is hiring they are looking for some 'I hate America' types, maybe you should volunteer. Fight the power.

Troll, troll, troll your boat.

 

[Jhhnn]

finally a lib that comes out and admits it. They want Iran having a nuke.

Its amazing how much hate the left has for America.

PS I heard ISIS is hiring they are looking for some 'I hate America' types, maybe you should volunteer. Fight the power.

Israel isn't America. Perhaps that's lost on you.

 

[norseamd]

Ukraine is in the middle of a civil war because the USA decided to get involved in the region. They supported the Maidanist movement, courtesy of Victoria Nuland, which threw that country into chaos. All for the sake of keeping that country from turning pro-Russian. These silly, pointless proxy wars need to end. Another conflict started by warmongering neoconservatives who'd sacrifice as many Ukraininans as necessary to maintain geopolitical influence in that region.

Bullshit.

Learn more about the Eastern Europeans including history, culture, and politics and then you can stop yelling this bullshit.

Not suggesting what you said about Iran is far off base at all.

 

[Jhhnn]

Just like Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, & Finlandians are sick and tired of the U.S. bullying the region

Sooo lame. Have we been invading or bombing folks in that part of the world? Rushing to resupply our friends who do? Sponsoring & supplying rebel forces? Applying brutal economic sanctions? Has anybody else?

Interesting. Interesting because I've never seen that argument ever made except by you. Please do expand on your feelings for the forum. And don't be shy about holding back on any details!

When do you drag out the false equivalency where opposing the policies of the state of Israel is the same thing as being a Jew-hating holocaust denying bigot?

 

[theeedude]

We get cheap gas and a big market for our goods. Effectively, we give them money for their oil, and they give that money right back to US for our movies, electronics, cars, Coca-Cola, etc.
All these paranoid dreams about Iran nuking US, Israel, or any other nuclear power are just crazy. You don't become a 3000+ year old civilization by going on self suicidal adventures.

 

[nickqt]

finally a lib that comes out and admits it. They want Iran having a nuke.

Its amazing how much hate the left has for America.

PS I heard ISIS is hiring they are looking for some 'I hate America' types, maybe you should volunteer. Fight the power.

Dear God are you fucking stupid.

Really, really stupid.

 

[cubby1223]

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-says-iran-vow-defy-u-very-disturbing-070223527.html

DUBAI (Reuters) - U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said a speech by Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei on Saturday vowing to defy American policies in the region despite a deal with world powers over Tehran's nuclear program was "very disturbing".

I especially like Kerry's thoughts on how to deal with Iran's meddling with other countries in the region:

"I think President Obama's belief and our military assessments, our intelligence assessments, are that if they organize themselves correctly, all of the Arab states have an untapped potential that is very, very significant to be able to push back against any of these activities," [Kerry] said.

"We wish you all the best, and if you cannot solve the problems on your own it's because you didn't try hard enough."

Kind of similar to the Ukraine situation Sorry, Kiev, our assessment is that if you truly believed enough in yourselves you could have easily prevented Russia from meddling in your internal affairs and starting a civil war.



And just throwing out some other comments on foreign support:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/poland-foreign-minister-alliance-us-worthless

"You know that the Polish-US alliance isn't worth anything... Complete bullshit. We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we'll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job. Losers. Complete losers."

 

[cubby1223]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-mulling-unprecedented-arms-package-to-israel-after-iran-deal/

In a Saturday phone call with former president Shimon Peres, National Security Adviser Susan Rice explained that the US was ready to offer Jerusalem a military compensation package that was unprecedented in its scope, the TV report said.
...
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu rejected the notion of a reimbursement package Sunday, saying that no amount of compensation would be enough to confront a nuclear armed Iran “sworn to our destruction.”

“Why should we need to be compensated if the deal is supposed to make us safer?” he asked. “The deal endangers our security, our survival even, and the security of the Middle East and the world,” Netanyahu said, during a US media blitz in the wake of the deal.

This could spark some interesting conversation on this forum

 

[fskimospy]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-mulling-unprecedented-arms-package-to-israel-after-iran-deal/


This could spark some interesting conversation on this forum

I have to say that the US finally standing up to Israel on important national security matters has been one of my favorite aspects of Obama's second term.

 

[werepossum]

Did you watch the video I put up earlier in this discussion?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t13zN8smvkE

Plus these also.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxn2Qs7CpPQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEC9uM1h4i0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU1NKgtOYOI

Also watch this video and then compare what this video was about with the current comments from over 1350 years later and put that all into understanding and perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jq0damMgUU

Plus here is some more video from Stratfor. Have to tell you that Stratfor is a very shady company and you can not trust them in any way but their low level video is probably safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ClfNCvMkMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs5Tru1owss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBe41fIIX2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtg_xkkQILM

No. For one thing, video moves soooo slow, at the speed of stupid. For another, there is no wisdom to be found on Youtube. Ever.

Except Gopher's modding videos.

We get cheap gas and a big market for our goods. Effectively, we give them money for their oil, and they give that money right back to US for our movies, electronics, cars, Coca-Cola, etc.
All these paranoid dreams about Iran nuking US, Israel, or any other nuclear power are just crazy. You don't become a 3000+ year old civilization by going on self suicidal adventures.

Actually Iran can't buy our movies, electronics (which are Chinese anyway), cars, Coca-Cola, etc. because we aren't lifting our sanctions. It's one thing for Obama to support our allies in trading with Iran, quite another for him to come to Congress asking that our sanctions against the largest state supporter of Islamic terrorism be lifted. Whatever percentage of Iran's new wealth isn't spent supporting terrorism or "peaceful nuclear research" will be spent on movies, electronics, cars, soft drinks, etc. from Europe, China and Russia. To the extent the Council of Islamic Revolution allows it anyway.

 

[fskimospy]

Actually Iran can't buy our movies, electronics (which are Chinese anyway), cars, Coca-Cola, etc. because we aren't lifting our sanctions. It's one thing for Obama to support our allies in trading with Iran, quite another for him to come to Congress asking that our sanctions against the largest state supporter of Islamic terrorism be lifted. Whatever percentage of Iran's new wealth isn't spent supporting terrorism or "peaceful nuclear research" will be spent on movies, electronics, cars, soft drinks, etc. from Europe, China and Russia. To the extent the Council of Islamic Revolution allows it anyway.

This is not correct. The sanctions against Iran have explicit provisions in them that allow Obama to lift them if he wants. Congress doesn't get a say.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/22/obama-could-lift-iran-sanctions-tomorrow-if-he-wanted-to/

 

[theeedude]

Why do Republicans hate job creators? Obama is opening up Iran and Cuba to American goods, and getting cheaper oil for Americans due to increased supply. A win win situation.

 

[Jhhnn]

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-says-iran-vow-defy-u-very-disturbing-070223527.html



I especially like Kerry's thoughts on how to deal with Iran's meddling with other countries in the region:



"We wish you all the best, and if you cannot solve the problems on your own it's because you didn't try hard enough."

Kind of similar to the Ukraine situation Sorry, Kiev, our assessment is that if you truly believed enough in yourselves you could have easily prevented Russia from meddling in your internal affairs and starting a civil war.



And just throwing out some other comments on foreign support:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/poland-foreign-minister-alliance-us-worthless

http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-mulling-unprecedented-arms-package-to-israel-after-iran-deal/


This could spark some interesting conversation on this forum

Everything but the kitchen sink, huh?

Amusing.

 

[theeedude]

And just throwing out some other comments on foreign support:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/22/poland-foreign-minister-alliance-us-worthless

We'll get in conflict with the Germans, Russians and we'll think that everything is super, because we gave the Americans a blow job.

According to the transcript, Sikorski described Warsaw's attitude towards the United States using the Polish word "murzynskosc."

That derives from the word "murzyn," which denotes a dark-skinned person and someone who does the work for somebody else, according to the PWN Polish language dictionary.

That's Poland's top diplomat?