Originally posted by: BlancoNino
I'm oversimplifying because it's a simple story. I would like you to explain to me how it's not an example of socialism.
Classroom = State/Country.
Students = Citizens
Crayons = Economic goods
Teacher = Authority who claims that all citizens shall be entitled to economic
goods, because they are a human need.
All I mentioned was that this was an example of socialism. Don't overthink the analogy.
It's not socialism because the goods are totally provided by a group totally outside the system, the parents. Not only does this outside provider not exist in real economic situations, given that the "citizens" DIDN'T do anything to earn their economic goods, the "authority" is arguably correct in suggesting that everyone is equally entitled to all the "economic goods". This doesn't apply to the real world since there is no outside entity unequally dealing out economic goods you did nothing to earn. The closest anything comes to this is rich kids who inherit vast fortunes that they did nothing to earn, Paris Hilton being the obvious example. And again, I would imagine that proponents of capitalism as a method to reward work would have a hard time with that. I generally agree with keeping what you EARN, but the idea that you somehow deserve what you DIDN'T earn seems exactly like socialism whatever the source.
Edit: And if you're wondering why I'm "overthinking" this, it's because I despise these "stories" frequently found in fwd: fwd: fwd: type emails. They represent the most lazy of political thinking that is a large part of the problem with our current system.
her209
No Lifer
- Oct 11, 2000
- 56,336
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What about the poor kid who did all the things the other kid but his parents cannot afford the crayons?Originally posted by: Rainsford
It's not socialism because the goods are totally provided by a group totally outside the system, the parents. Not only does this outside provider not exist in real economic situations, given that the "citizens" DIDN'T do anything to earn their economic goods, the "authority" is arguably correct in suggesting that everyone is equally entitled to all the "economic goods". This doesn't apply to the real world since there is no outside entity unequally dealing out economic goods you did nothing to earn. The closest anything comes to this is rich kids who inherit vast fortunes that they did nothing to earn, Paris Hilton being the obvious example. And again, I would imagine that proponents of capitalism as a method to reward work would have a hard time with that. I generally agree with keeping what you EARN, but the idea that you somehow deserve what you DIDN'T earn seems exactly like socialism whatever the source.Originally posted by: BlancoNino
I'm oversimplifying because it's a simple story. I would like you to explain to me how it's not an example of socialism.
Classroom = State/Country.
Students = Citizens
Crayons = Economic goods
Teacher = Authority who claims that all citizens shall be entitled to economic
goods, because they are a human need.
All I mentioned was that this was an example of socialism. Don't overthink the analogy.
Edit: And if you're wondering why I'm "overthinking" this, it's because I despise these "stories" frequently found in fwd: fwd: fwd: type emails. They represent the most lazy of political thinking that is a large part of the problem with our current system.
right, because things were going SO well in the post-industrial revolution era of rampant capitalism.
at any rate, when you've got equality in a school setting, it allows more focus on education and less on who has cool shoes or a sparkly folder. school uniforms ftw.
The main social experiment I remember for kindergarden was Discrimination Day. That was when the teacher talked about how some people are treated bad because of how they look and that was not nice. She had all of the blue eyed kids line up on one side of the room and instructed us to make fun of and generally treat them bad for the rest of the day. I have brown eyes. "Stupid Blueies" That was fun.
I'm frantically searching my previous posts to see where I said this was a made up story from a fwd: email.
Anyway, I think it's funny you're still overthinking this. BTW, if a kid helps does his daily chores (keeping his room picked up, brushing his teeth, etc) and shows good behavior which is rewarded by a nice box of crayons, how is that not earning it?
And how were the people living in non-capitalist nations doing during the late 1800's and early 1900's? Were they feeling their countries to come to the capitalist United States to avoid famine?
I have no problem with school uniforms, BTW and agree with what you said. However, when it comes to dividing self-provided (or parental provided, depending) school supplies for everyone in the class to have them equally, I say no thanks.
Oh please. What a lot of rubbish. Demonize the public schools all you want, because you wouldn't last a day in a classroom.
I am a second grade teacher, and we get $300 total a year for supplies. That includes construction paper, writing paper, paper clips, staples, markers, pretty much everything we need. $300 doesn't go too far. I spend a lot of my own money on my students AND I spend a lot of money on buying supplies for my own children. You would be amazed at what the middle school and high school teachers ask for.
Anyway. At the beginning of the year, I ask the parents to send in VERY SPECIFIC things, and a box of 64 crayons is NOT one of them. In fact, I made one of my students take home her damn big box of crayons that she brought in this week because A) there isn't room in the desk for the box and B) she doesn't need more than 24.
Do you know how hard it is for 5, 6, and 7 year old kids to keep track of their own stuff? Have you ever LOOKED in the DESK of the average K-2 grade student???
The REAL reason my students have community supplies for the first half of the year is because the little darlings don't know how to put anything away, and I need to SEE what they have on top of the table.
During the second half of the year, they start keeping their own supplies, they start writing down their own homework assignments, and other things to show they can be responsible.
I just had to laugh when I read this thread, because unless you actually teach primary grades, you have NO IDEA what it is really like. Any parent who sends a K student to school with a box of 64 crayons is clueless. 8-16 crayons is more than enough for a 5 year old!!!!
BTW, I ask for Kleenex, baby wipes (to clean germy desks), six 3 prong folders, one composition book, glue sticks, one 8 pack markers, one 16 count crayons, one pencil box, a pack of pencils, and one pair safety scissors. Anything else is a distraction/takes up too much space.
You should check with the teacher first. The reward may not be appropriate to bring to school. I wrote a note home today saying not to send the giant box of crayons back in. (The little girl brought it in this week and it made her take FOREVER to color in one page, because she had 25 different shades of each color to choose from.) Save it for art projects at home. You don't need more than a few crayons for academic activities.
So what exactly are you arguing against? The only thing I'm arguing against is the redistribution of school supplies that belong to the children. Do I care about community supplies provided by the school? No. Do I care about how messy students are? No. Do I care what the basic supplies are supposed to be? No. I simply disagree with the message we send our students when they have to sacrifice their supplies (doesn't matter if the kids' parents bought them or not) so that they can be part of the entire classroom. You didn't argue against this, but you made a bunch of other arguments that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic and tried to make me look clueless.
Which again has nothing to do with why it's okay for a teacher to make a kid sacrifice his 64 Crayons for a community classroom.
BTW, I had a box of 64 Crayola Crayons back in 1st grade. It was not a problem, I never made a mess, and I took such good care of them that they were still around a good 5 years later (all of them were there, too).
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. In the intermediate grades, the students keep their own supplies. (That's 3rd grade up.) In primary, which is k-2, group supplies is a common classroom strategy, and it has nothing to do with SOCIALISM and everything to do with CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT. You know, routines, procedures, that kind of thing.
People who don't work with 20 little kids all day long and then have the nerve to criticize the school system inaccurately annoy me. There are plenty of other things to complain about. Complain about a real problem and not some right wing reactionary crap that has no basis in reality.
The kid should not bring the crayons into the classroom in the first place. I don't care if it is the perfect kid who organizes everything. It is the TEACHER'S class to run as she or he sees fit.
Right wing =! Anti-Socialism. Thanks for the straw-man.
BTW, I kept all of my stuff back in K-2. Of course, we keep doing things differently in public schools and as a result we have gone way backwards in education quality.
oh please. You started this assinine thread so you need to hear what it is really like out there.
I am so glad you were such a good little boy. Most kids today are so ADHD from watching hours of TV, playing video games, and eating crap that we have to work twice as hard to get and keep their attention. Have you ever seen "Honey, We Are Killing the Kids" ? Well, that's more common than ever... parents who have no control over their own kids and then they send them to school. So yeah, we have to RETEACH them how to even flush the toilet.
You know what I do? I have a bathroom log. You can use the bathroom anytime I am not actively teaching. You get up, write your name in the log, and do your thing. That way, if you forget to flush the toilet, the next kid comes in and announces it to the whole class.
My suitemate had a student at the beginning of the year CRAP HIS PANTS on more than one occasion and let the crap fall out on the floor. She kept finding turds all around the classroom. She was freaking out and I was laughing my ass off. The school nurse had a talk with the boy and that seemed to fix the problem.
That's pretty much a regular day teaching little kids, so don't argue that you were perfect and so therefore it is all the public schools fault for changing the way things are done.
My elementary school did this with various different school supplies, mainly paper. It really depended on the teacher.
I won't argue against the decline of good parenting, but that doesn't mean that our publics schools are any better. The discipline has left the household and our public schools.
It hapenned to us with tissue paper. The list simply said the student needed to bring in his own tissue box and said NOTHING of having to share it with the class. Well, we did...and my parents were pissed.
I don't believe it. If it happened, a parent would complain and they would likely get their money back. That would essentially be stealing by coercion by the teacher.
According to Isla, a good teacher will ask for a certain list of items to be DONATED to the class at the beginning of the year. If the parents can't afford it, the teacher will make up the difference.
The teacher has EVERY RIGHT to run the class as he or she sees fit. His or her responsibility is to COMMUNICATE the classroom rules and procedures to the parents.
And if you don't like it, by all means PLEASE HOMESCHOOL!
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
Aside from the fact that it's not an example of socialism, as Rainsford so eloquently explained, yes, it is nice that our public schools offer such lessons in what's really important in life. Our children are immersed in an environment that indoctrinates them into the culture of conspicuous consumerism. Everywhere they turn, they are taught their worth is measured by the thickness of their wallets, their happiness depends on grabbing the biggest pile of things. Even religion, in too many cases, has become a spectacle of palaces and Mammon rather than a showplace for spiritual values. If our schools can do something to help balance that self-destructive mindset, I'm all for it.
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