Interesting story I heard from a friend...

[Isla]

Thank you, Bowfinger, for pointing that out.

While no teacher I know and no teacher my 3 children ever had has done what the OP suggested, we DO have a Character Education program at my school. Each month, a positive character trait is taught.

We begin in August with Respect, then move on to Responsibility in September. Other traits we cover are Caring, Friendship, Courage, Patience... you get the idea. And you know what? Sharing with others less fortunate is a good thing to teach children, especially since one day we will all be old and need help ourselves. No life goes perfectly as planned.

Anyone have a problem with that?

 

[cumhail]

An excerpt from Robert Fulghum's famous essay:

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate-school mountain, but there in the sandpile at Sunday School. These are the things I learned:

Share everything.

Play fair.

Don?t hit people.

Put things back where you found them.

Clean up your own mess.

Don?t take things that aren?t yours.

Say you?re sorry when you hurt somebody.

Wash your hands before you eat.

Flush.

Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.

Live a balanced life?learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.

Take a nap every afternoon.

When you go out into the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands, and stick together.

Wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.

Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup?they all die. So do we.

And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned?the biggest word of all?LOOK.

Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or your government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all?the whole world?had cookies and milk about three o?clock every afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are?when you go out into the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.

Yes, yes... I know. Robert Fulghum is probably just another commie, in your book. But I guess I must be, too, since I prefer the risk of your so-called "socialism" to having 5 year olds already learning to look down on each other, and themselves, based on familial economic status and class. Did the teacher in your story handle things appropriately? No, not as you tell it. But I cannot discount the possibility, nor even the likelihood, that we're at the tail end of a game of telephone that went from 5 year old to parent to friend to discussion forum.

 

[DealMonkey]

I'm outraged by the outrage!

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: senseamp
It probably never happened. It's just one of those strawmen "stories" rightwingers like to put up.

Kinda thinking that myself, and I happen to be very against socialism. No one is brainwashing our kids, crazy person... now back into your box.

 

[Bitek]

First of all, this little "story" is better labeled as an example of communism, not socialism as the definition of the latter is far more varied and does not characterize this story in all its forms.


Definitions aside, this sort of thing is common in classrooms and daycares for very good and practical reasons. In addition to what Isla wrote, this is also done to avoid jealousy and fighting. Kids at young ages are possessive. Little Johnny boy there has his parents spoil him, he loses one red crayon out of his mega-crayon pack, and then goes around accusing the other kids of stealing his red crayon, "..but Susie has MY red crayon..."

Instead of trying to CSI the whole thing out and waste the teacher's time, the problem is avoided in that all the red crayons belong to everybody, so no one can "steal" from another. If Johnny wants a red crayon, just find one out of the box. Your recall of Jimmy's reaction (cry cry cry, my my my), and the necessity of the teachers involvement exactly proves this point. You don't have kids do you?

The parents will have plenty of chances to buy Jimmy's love outside of class, so they shouldn't worry.

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
I don't get chain letters. This story was told to me by a friend who even gave the names of the parents.

Also, why is this hard to belive? Back when I was in school, if we were to bring "snacks", we had to bring some for everyone and teacher said that it was because there are children in the classroom who can't afford snacks and it's not "fair" to them.

Really, though, you guys are overthinking this story. It's a cute story and it does have a lot to do with basic economics: Work for something and then be forced to give it up so that it can be distributed fairly and be collectively owned.

That's the problem..."cute stories" can't explain "basic economics". This story vastly oversimplifies even basic economic ideas, then you proceed to draw broad conclusions, and THEN bitch when we point out flaws in the story.

You want to explain why socialism is bad, I'm all for it, but argument by analogy is always suspect, and it tends to suggest the arguer has not properly thought through his point.

I'm oversimplifying because it's a simple story. I would like you to explain to me how it's not an example of socialism.

Classroom = State/Country.
Students = Citizens
Crayons = Economic goods
Teacher = Authority who claims that all citizens shall be entitled to economic
goods, because they are a human need.

All I mentioned was that this was an example of socialism. Don't overthink the analogy.

It's not socialism because the goods are totally provided by a group totally outside the system, the parents. Not only does this outside provider not exist in real economic situations, given that the "citizens" DIDN'T do anything to earn their economic goods, the "authority" is arguably correct in suggesting that everyone is equally entitled to all the "economic goods". This doesn't apply to the real world since there is no outside entity unequally dealing out economic goods you did nothing to earn. The closest anything comes to this is rich kids who inherit vast fortunes that they did nothing to earn, Paris Hilton being the obvious example. And again, I would imagine that proponents of capitalism as a method to reward work would have a hard time with that. I generally agree with keeping what you EARN, but the idea that you somehow deserve what you DIDN'T earn seems exactly like socialism whatever the source.

Edit: And if you're wondering why I'm "overthinking" this, it's because I despise these "stories" frequently found in fwd: fwd: fwd: type emails. They represent the most lazy of political thinking that is a large part of the problem with our current system.

:thumbsup:


Of course, no one's focusing on the real problem - the fact that schools even require anything like crayons. If they scrapped all that idiocy, perhaps we'd end up with more Rainsfords and fewer BlancoNinos.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: Isla
According to Isla, a good teacher will ask for a certain list of items to be DONATED to the class at the beginning of the year. If the parents can't afford it, the teacher will make up the difference.

Hey wow, now that's a good idea. I have no problem if the schools ask for things to be donated for everyone to use, but this clearly did not happen in this case.

Again, what are you arguing against?

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Kinda thinking that myself, and I happen to be very against socialism. No one is brainwashing our kids, crazy person... now back into your box.

I never said our children were being brainwashed. That happens at the college level .

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Aside from the fact that it's not an example of socialism, as Rainsford so eloquently explained, yes, it is nice that our public schools offer such lessons in what's really important in life. Our children are immersed in an environment that indoctrinates them into the culture of conspicuous consumerism. Everywhere they turn, they are taught their worth is measured by the thickness of their wallets, their happiness depends on grabbing the biggest pile of things. Even religion, in too many cases, has become a spectacle of palaces and Mammon rather than a showplace for spiritual values. If our schools can do something to help balance that self-destructive mindset, I'm all for it.

There is a difference between sharing and what went on in this story. When you are taxed for welfare and other programs, you are not "sharing" since you are being forced to give it up. The students are being taught that having more than other people is wrong, and that everyone deserves an equal amount of what you have. If you teach the children to share voluntarily, only THEN have you taught them an important lesson. I recall sharing books and toys with other children and feeling good when the teacher praised me for it. But to be forced to give up something so that everyone can have some and then be told that you're being "selfish" when you complain is definitely not the message I want my future children to have.

If you guys can't seem to figure out how forcing everyone to sacrifice something so that it can be divided up into equal collective ownership is like socialism or even communism...then I'd suggest going back to college and taking an Economics 101 class again.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Kinda thinking that myself, and I happen to be very against socialism. No one is brainwashing our kids, crazy person... now back into your box.

I never said our children were being brainwashed. That happens at the college level .

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Aside from the fact that it's not an example of socialism, as Rainsford so eloquently explained, yes, it is nice that our public schools offer such lessons in what's really important in life. Our children are immersed in an environment that indoctrinates them into the culture of conspicuous consumerism. Everywhere they turn, they are taught their worth is measured by the thickness of their wallets, their happiness depends on grabbing the biggest pile of things. Even religion, in too many cases, has become a spectacle of palaces and Mammon rather than a showplace for spiritual values. If our schools can do something to help balance that self-destructive mindset, I'm all for it.

There is a difference between sharing and what went on in this story. When you are taxed for welfare and other programs, you are not "sharing" since you are being forced to give it up. The students are being taught that having more than other people is wrong, and that everyone deserves an equal amount of what you have. If you teach the children to share voluntarily, only THEN have you taught them an important lesson. I recall sharing books and toys with other children and feeling good when the teacher praised me for it. But to be forced to give up something so that everyone can have some and then be told that you're being "selfish" when you complain is definitely not the message I want my future children to have.

If you guys can't seem to figure out how forcing everyone to sacrifice something so that it can be divided up into equal collective ownership is like socialism or even communism...then I'd suggest going back to college and taking an Economics 101 class again.

dude, it's just kindergarten. Kids need to learn to share, that is like the biggest hurdle for kids that age.

Lots will still grow up to be nice little GOP sheeple so dont get your panties all twisted.

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: nutxo
Meh.

Every year we get a long list of what our elementary school age kids have to take in. Then when the kids start school the teachers gather all the supplies from the kids and redistribute them.

It's not a myth in Tacoma, it's just the way they do it here.

I live in Washington State as well. Must be part of our state's policy

Have you heard that Washington has also been making national headlines for it's poor education performance?

 

[BlancoNino]

Originally posted by: OrByte
dude, it's just kindergarten. Kids need to learn to share, that is like the biggest hurdle for kids that age.

Lots will still grow up to be nice little GOP sheeple so dont get your panties all twisted.

Ridiculous. Did you even read what I said? BTW, I'm not a member of the GOP.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: SirStev0
Kinda thinking that myself, and I happen to be very against socialism. No one is brainwashing our kids, crazy person... now back into your box.

I never said our children were being brainwashed. That happens at the college level .

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Aside from the fact that it's not an example of socialism, as Rainsford so eloquently explained, yes, it is nice that our public schools offer such lessons in what's really important in life. Our children are immersed in an environment that indoctrinates them into the culture of conspicuous consumerism. Everywhere they turn, they are taught their worth is measured by the thickness of their wallets, their happiness depends on grabbing the biggest pile of things. Even religion, in too many cases, has become a spectacle of palaces and Mammon rather than a showplace for spiritual values. If our schools can do something to help balance that self-destructive mindset, I'm all for it.

There is a difference between sharing and what went on in this story. When you are taxed for welfare and other programs, you are not "sharing" since you are being forced to give it up. The students are being taught that having more than other people is wrong, and that everyone deserves an equal amount of what you have. If you teach the children to share voluntarily, only THEN have you taught them an important lesson. I recall sharing books and toys with other children and feeling good when the teacher praised me for it. But to be forced to give up something so that everyone can have some and then be told that you're being "selfish" when you complain is definitely not the message I want my future children to have.

If you guys can't seem to figure out how forcing everyone to sacrifice something so that it can be divided up into equal collective ownership is like socialism or even communism...then I'd suggest going back to college and taking an Economics 101 class again.

dude, it's just kindergarten. Kids need to learn to share, that is like the biggest hurdle for kids that age.

Lots will still grow up to be nice little GOP sheeple so dont get your panties all twisted.

Having something taken away from you by force is not called sharing.. its called stealing...

 

[Moonbeam]

A person can consider that to be his which he has after a shipwreck.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: nutxo
Meh.

Every year we get a long list of what our elementary school age kids have to take in. Then when the kids start school the teachers gather all the supplies from the kids and redistribute them.

It's not a myth in Tacoma, it's just the way they do it here.

I live in Washington State as well. Must be part of our state's policy

Have you heard that Washington has also been making national headlines for it's poor education performance?

And what exactly does making kids share crayons have to do with poor education peformance?

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: senseamp
That's an interesting story. Can I tell it at parties and pretend it was my friend?

lol. :thumbsup:

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
So a 5-year old kid (we'll call him Jimmy) is about to go to kindergarten for the first time. One of the requirements is that the kid is supposed to have a box of crayons as part of his supplies. The kid really wants this box of 64 Crayola Crayons (the best kind, of course), so he acts really good, does everything that's expected (brushes his teeth on time, doesn't fuss about anything, helps pick up things around the house, and other little things). So his parents say "okay, you've been good, we'll buy you that set of 64 Crayola Crayons!".

So Jimmy is all excited and goes to school for the first day. The first thing the teacher asks is for all the kids to pull out their crayons and dump them into a big box. The teacher explains that not all kids can afford crayons, so they have to have a big box for everyone to share. When the box comes around for Jimmy to dump in his nice set of crayons that he worked so hard for, he starts to cry and says "but these are my crayons!", to which the teacher replies "You need to share, stop being so selfish!". So he dumps them in and everyone in the class gets to use the crayons he worked for. After a few weeks, many of them are broken, dull, and completely not taken care of.

Isn't it so nice that the first thing our children learn in public schools is socialism? IIRC, I believe the same thing happened to me, except in 1st or 2nd grade.

Its one of those things that I dont necesarily believe, but I wouldnt be suprised if it happened either.

Regardless, if it happened to my kid I'd chew the teachers ass up one side and down the other, and then move on to the administrators office as well.

Yes, because we all know that a box of crayons is worth spending an afternoon chewing out the $24,000 per year caretaker of your child.
I'd rather be doing something productive, thanks.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: nutxo
Meh.

Every year we get a long list of what our elementary school age kids have to take in. Then when the kids start school the teachers gather all the supplies from the kids and redistribute them.

It's not a myth in Tacoma, it's just the way they do it here.

I live in Washington State as well. Must be part of our state's policy

Have you heard that Washington has also been making national headlines for it's poor education performance?

And what exactly does making kids share crayons have to do with poor education peformance?

Socialism breeds inadequacy?

 

[NoShangriLa]

Shenanigan.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: BlancoNino

Originally posted by: nutxo
Meh.

Every year we get a long list of what our elementary school age kids have to take in. Then when the kids start school the teachers gather all the supplies from the kids and redistribute them.

It's not a myth in Tacoma, it's just the way they do it here.

I live in Washington State as well. Must be part of our state's policy

Have you heard that Washington has also been making national headlines for it's poor education performance?

And what exactly does making kids share crayons have to do with poor education peformance?

Socialism breeds inadequacy?

Bahahaha...If that was true then Massachusetts would have worse educational performance than Washington.
http://measuringup.highereducation.org/...&ivcebox=on&qlbox=on&plbox=on&dlbox=on

One has to wonder why Massachusetts stomps most other states in educational performance...
http://measuringup.highereducation.org/compare/indexpage.cfm?myyear=2006

Socialism and/or Making kids share a box of crayons breeds inadequacy?
I fail to see a relation.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Geez, what's with his parents? How did this poor child learn to imagine that things are the source of happiness? How come he doesn't know that the joy of crayons is in drawing with them and that those drawings he will share with others will nevertheless always belong to him as the artist? Why has he not been helped to see that the value of his life is in being? What a sad state of affairs, a poor child who sees himself as an ego to whom things can belong? He will have a hard time dying some day because he will lose all he mistakes as having value. How come this child was never given a chance to learn how much more joy there is in sharing?

But now that he's sick, taking his crayons will only deepen his illness. Now he will hate having to share. The joy of living in part for others will be lost to him. He will become more and more fixated on things.

Are you sure you aren't sick from this sense of ego and affluenza yourself? What the hell are you doing using a computer when there are so many people in the world who are in need? Do you own a house? Do you have an apartment larger than 300 square feet? Do you enjoy three square meals a day?

Who the f--- are you to have all of these thing when other people are suffering in the world? Moonbeam, I think you should adhere to your principles of altruism and selflessness. Sell your material possessions, including your computer, and use the proceeds to purchase food for starving childen. Invite the homeless to live in your house or your apartment.

I'm trying to save you from your own bloated ego Moonbeam! Don't let the joy of living in part for others be lost to you!

Also, have you considered relocating to a nation that might be more consistent with your underlying ethical philosophy? Have you considered North Korea or Cuba?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
There are actually poor people out there who work hard to raise kids alone due to dead beat dads. And many of these families have a hard time paying for school supplies. So providing help to them is a good thing.

An advocate of personal responsibility would say:

If you can't afford to raise children and to provide for them--then don't have them! Birthing children that you cannot afford to raise is a great way to lock yourself into poverty. It would be more responsible to have an abortion instead rather than to make everyone else pay for the luxury of your having children.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Isla

According to Isla, a good teacher will ask for a certain list of items to be DONATED to the class at the beginning of the year. If the parents can't afford it, the teacher will make up the difference.

I think it's real sad that teachers, who aren't exactly paid a mint, are having to dip into their own funds to provide school supplies. Perhaps better paid school administrators should be made to contribute, too. I mean, it's not as though teachers teach for free; I'm sure they work for compensation.

Isla, what would happen if you decided that you just didn't want to buy school supplies out of your own paycheck? Would you suffer any sort of disciplinary action? Do you know any teachers who absolutely won't open their own wallets?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Geez, what's with his parents? How did this poor child learn to imagine that things are the source of happiness? How come he doesn't know that the joy of crayons is in drawing with them and that those drawings he will share with others will nevertheless always belong to him as the artist? Why has he not been helped to see that the value of his life is in being? What a sad state of affairs, a poor child who sees himself as an ego to whom things can belong? He will have a hard time dying some day because he will lose all he mistakes as having value. How come this child was never given a chance to learn how much more joy there is in sharing?

But now that he's sick, taking his crayons will only deepen his illness. Now he will hate having to share. The joy of living in part for others will be lost to him. He will become more and more fixated on things.

Are you sure you aren't sick from this sense of ego and affluenza yourself? What the hell are you doing using a computer when there are so many people in the world who are in need? Do you own a house? Do you have an apartment larger than 300 square feet? Do you enjoy three square meals a day?

Who the f--- are you to have all of these thing when other people are suffering in the world? Moonbeam, I think you should adhere to your principles of altruism and selflessness. Sell your material possessions, including your computer, and use the proceeds to purchase food for starving childen. Invite the homeless to live in your house or your apartment.

I'm trying to save you from your own bloated ego Moonbeam! Don't let the joy of living in part for others be lost to you!

Also, have you considered relocating to a nation that might be more consistent with your underlying ethical philosophy? Have you considered North Korea or Cuba?

A Zen Master returning to his hovel late one night found thieves stealing his rice bowl and other meager possessions. He said, 'Too bad I can't give them that moon."

Will you take it please?

 

[Isla]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Isla

According to Isla, a good teacher will ask for a certain list of items to be DONATED to the class at the beginning of the year. If the parents can't afford it, the teacher will make up the difference.

I think it's real sad that teachers, who aren't exactly paid a mint, are having to dip into their own funds to provide school supplies. Perhaps better paid school administrators should be made to contribute, too. I mean, it's not as though teachers teach for free; I'm sure they work for compensation.

Isla, what would happen if you decided that you just didn't want to buy school supplies out of your own paycheck? You know, I can't really answer that. I came into teaching at a late age (I was 33 when I started) because I wanted to make a difference and I could afford to teach... I had the luxury of being a stay at home mom for years, and I wanted to give back to my community. My motivation for teaching has always been to help make the world a better place, in my own small way.

Would you suffer any sort of disciplinary action? Do you know any teachers who absolutely won't open their own wallets?

I doubt I would suffer a disciplinary action. I know of teachers who frequent sales to buy supplies for their students at deeply discounted prices... there are charitable groups who help out. In any case, teachers tend to be teachers because they CARE about children, so to be a teacher and have a mercenary attitude isn't something I see very often. If you just want to make money and look out for yourself, then you aren't a teacher.

 

[OokiiNeko]

BlancoNino,

Easy fix is to have the school buy all the supplies. (Which really IS socialism)

Where to get the money? I am sure that we can find a little out of the tens of hundreds of millions that are disappearing into "Iraq reconstruction".

By the way, during this whole debacle with Iraq, the tankers have kept rolling into the Persian Gulf, filling up, and rolling out.

Now that Saddam Hussein and his evil administration is gone, who has been getting paid for all that crude oil??? Probably could use some of that money to buy crayons for the Iraqi kids.

BTW BlancoNino, is it still true that if you, as a parent, refuse to let your kids read "My Two Mommies" in school, Washington State will take your kids away? And what grade is that required reading in?