Intellectual capability of career welfare individuals

[woolfe9999]

What are we concerned about here? How much these people really want to work, or whether or not they are actually working. Yanking people's welfare benefits might in theory do something about the former. It will do nothing about the latter. If we want people on welfare to work, we must first an have economy with no structural unemployment. If we cannot supply everyone with a job, does it really matter that some of the people not working don't want to work? Actually, it's convenient that way, that some people do not want what they cannot have anyway.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Most do not linger, it is most of the time more of a PIA to be on welfare then to just go get work.

This is why real life fraud figures are so low (far less then 1%), criminals want EASY money.

Collecting welfare is massively intrusive to ones personal business (we know everything you have in the bank and what assets you own, where you have worked -your whole life!)

We collect fingerprints, have your plate #s on any vehicles, we track what you buy with the money even.

Sorry, but the right wing meme of the welfare queen is just that -a urban myth

BUT, the myth does provide a vehicle to generalize the poor and minorities as moochers.

This is what it is all about. Just another racism dog-whistle playing off others paranoia and resentment of others of colors getting a leg up possibly at *gasp* their own expense.

Its a entitlement trip, as if each man was a self-made island to itself with a perfect life with no unforeseen circumstances. -This is sociopathic, and the sign of a damaged person -or one with no life experience listening to others who have an agenda of their own.

Only what gets reported.

Why do the welfare queens get dropped off at the local office in a 30K Caddy.
Why do they have the latest cell phones ($200-300)
How come they have the $1500 Flat Panel TV with XBox, Wii and a $2500 stereo system blasting.
How are they able to afford the $15 CDs but claim to not have food money?

Answer:
They have learned to manipulate the system. Others are taking care of her and it is their" stuff, so she does not have to declare it.

to you it may be a myth; to others; we have seen it happening all the time

 

[Texashiker]

What are we concerned about here? How much these people really want to work, or whether or not they are actually working.

I think it goes way past the will to work. For most part, I think people who make a career from welfare is a learned behavior.

Whether its a behavior that was taught from their parents, friends, relatives,,, I do not know.

Or whether its a behavior someone adopted in order to survive, as in they have no life skills.

Yanking people's welfare benefits might in theory do something about the former. It will do nothing about the latter.

With no life skills, no job, no education, pulling welfare will be self-defeating.

 

[SS Trooper]

I'll share my experience with welfare.

*Note : My family was brought up to not ask for help unless either the person you are asking owes you something already, or it cannot be done with out help. I think this upbringing causes me to be baised against people who "can" do things for themselves but choose not to.

Here goes:

A relative of my gf used to work at a high school cafe, she got into an arguement with her boss and got herself fired. She then claimed unemployment for ~2 years and in that time became a worthless drunk. I remember seeing her a family gatherings and she was always complaining about not having a job and that the economy was a mess.

Once her unemployment ran out there was a lot of in family fighting about her and her kids. This woman was trying to get the family to pay for things "for her kids" but somehow managed to afford a 12 pack everyday for herself. It all stopped suddenly and I didn't hear anything about it for a few months.

At the next family gathering she showed up and started saying complaining about how she wished she could go back to work, but the doctors say she can't. Everyone looks around confused, until someone bites and asks "Why can't you work" Chronic back pain was the answer.

This is why people like myself hate this system, or more specifically the ease of abusing this system. This woman is supported by her own kids instead of supporting them as she should be. She (imo) got herself fired intentionally to recieve unemployment, and when that ran out she went after her family until that ran out, and now she is faking a "disability" to recieve welfare and god knows what else. After all this you can be damn sure to find her on her porch with a 12 pack every day. While her teenager works a part time job to keep food in the house.

This is not a unique occurance in the areas around where I live either.

 

[woolfe9999]

I think it goes way past the will to work. For most part, I think people who make a career from welfare is a learned behavior.

Whether its a behavior that was taught from their parents, friends, relatives,,, I do not know.

Or whether its a behavior someone adopted in order to survive, as in they have no life skills.



With no life skills, no job, no education, pulling welfare will be self-defeating.

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether these people were a) born lazy, b) learned it from parents or peers, c) became lazy because of welfare itself, or d) are not actually lazy at all. With permanent structural unemployment, there are no jobs for these people. Even if they suddenly self-motivate, they will either not find a job or will find one and displace someone else from the work force. It's not like these people are going to create jobs themselves just by being motivated to work. An extremely tiny percentage might open a business and employ other people, but that's about it.

You're just wringing your hands over the fact that some of these people are lazy, out of pure principle. Fine. Nothing will change the material reality of it, that they're going to be out of work with or without welfare. So we can either let them starve or not.

- wolf

 

[Texashiker]

You're just wringing your hands over the fact that some of these people are lazy, out of pure principle. Fine. Nothing will change the material reality of it, that they're going to be out of work with or without welfare. So we can either let them starve or not.

When I was working in the welding field, the shop owner would call a local half-way house for extra help. The people were brought via a prison bus from the half-way house to the shop.

Instead of working the full time employees 70 - 80 hour weeks, the people from the half-way house would come in and help out. That we were able to keep the overtime down.

Some of the people from the house, working in the welding shop was probably the first time they have ever done an honest days work in their entire life. Just about all of the people were non-violent offenders, such as drug users.

From time to time someone from the half-way house would stop showing up at work. Come to find out they got into a fight and were sent back to prison.

Some of the people from the house truly wanted to learn a skill. A couple of the guys wanted to learn how to weld, or learn some kind of other skill.

Some of the people just wanted to do their time and get back out on the streets.

It's not like these people are going to create jobs themselves just by being motivated to work. An extremely tiny percentage might open a business and employ other people, but that's about it.

Its not just about creating jobs, its about contributing something back to the community.

Does a person have to create a job to contribute? Paying your taxes and staying out of prison also contributes to society.

 

[CountZero]

Then we need to drug test citizens who choose to accept welfare, period.

Just doing those two things alone would cut our costs in half I bet.

And then what? I understand what you want, essentially to get people off the government dollar that don't deserve it. What is the habitual drug user going to do without welfare? Straighten up and become an outstanding citizen or continue to be a problem for society that now needs to find other means for getting their fix.

Second how much does it cost to administer and keep track of all of these drug tests? If it was more expensive to do all the testing than what was saved by getting those people off of welfare would you still support it? Is it the principal or the cost savings?

If we could greatly reduce the number of people on welfare but there was no cost savings or the cost savings was negative should we do it? We can throw any amount of money at the problem of weeding out the undeserving but if it doesn't save anything why bother?

 

[nehalem256]

When I was working in the welding field, the shop owner would call a local half-way house for extra help. The people were brought via a prison bus from the half-way house to the shop.

Instead of working the full time employees 70 - 80 hour weeks, the people from the half-way house would come in and help out. That we were able to keep the overtime down.

Some of the people from the house, working in the welding shop was probably the first time they have ever done an honest days work in their entire life. Just about all of the people were non-violent offenders, such as drug users.

From time to time someone from the half-way house would stop showing up at work. Come to find out they got into a fight and were sent back to prison.

Some of the people from the house truly wanted to learn a skill. A couple of the guys wanted to learn how to weld, or learn some kind of other skill.

Some of the people just wanted to do their time and get back out on the streets.



Its not just about creating jobs, its about contributing something back to the community.

Does a person have to create a job to contribute? Paying your taxes and staying out of prison also contributes to society.

Correct in that it is not just about holding a job.

for example http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-wants-child-support-help-from-the-state?lite

I mean really is too much to ask to expect people not to father 4 children in 1 year?

 

[nehalem256]

And then what? I understand what you want, essentially to get people off the government dollar that don't deserve it. What is the habitual drug user going to do without welfare? Straighten up and become an outstanding citizen or continue to be a problem for society that now needs to find other means for getting their fix.

Starve. How is this a bad thing for society exactly?

 

[actuarial]

Starve. How is this a bad thing for society exactly?

I disagree. They will probably rob and steal though (they may already do that anyways).

 

[Texashiker]

Starve. How is this a bad thing for society exactly?

Self-preservation will kick in.

One reason why our species has been so successful, is that we will anything to live.

During the outbreak of the black death of 1348 - 1350, parents killed their children to eat them, children killed their parents for food, people dug up and ate recently buried bodies,,,,. In some parts of Europe, dog and cat populations were wiped out.

 

[Paul98]

The problem is that people abuse the system, just like everything else out there. It's the few people who take advantage who screw things up for everyone else.

Most people who use these programs are good and do it for the right reasons, helping themselves and their family get through hard times. I have also seen many of the problems that these people have which makes it hard for them to make the correct decisions. These people need more help than what they get from the government, and it's sad as many don't know it. Many of these problems started well before they got on government assistance.

Just like many of these problems, we need to not just make large cuts to the system. But instead make it work better, and look at the real causes for the fraud and what causes people to do these things.

Does anyone have good up to date numbers on these problems, and causes?

 

[Paul98]

The only way to fix many of these problems is changing the actual people who are causing that problem. Help from drugs and other things to change how people act and think are the only way to really fix many problems. Another way is actually giving many of these people a real chance in something they not only can do, but would be willing to do.

 

[chucky2]

I think about the only possible way to truly correct this, and really, have any hope of correcting it, is going to be getting birth control in the water supply. You take a pill when you actually want to have a baby. That pill is only given to people who have shown they not only have, but presently are, able to properly take care of themself, and the additional burden of a child. If they can't do that, no pill. If they aquire a pill and get themselves PG and can't take care of their baby, zero additional public assistance will be provided to them than they are already receiving. If this means the baby dies, well, so be it.

Society is going to have to get that serious, and cold, to have any hope of making headway. Either tolerate this shit until the end of time, or get serious and take the political hit to end it. Pick.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

Only what gets reported.

Why do the welfare queens get dropped off at the local office in a 30K Caddy.
Why do they have the latest cell phones ($200-300)
How come they have the $1500 Flat Panel TV with XBox, Wii and a $2500 stereo system blasting.
How are they able to afford the $15 CDs but claim to not have food money?

Answer:
They have learned to manipulate the system. Others are taking care of her and it is their" stuff, so she does not have to declare it.

to you it may be a myth; to others; we have seen it happening all the time

And you know what else we know?

All those welfare queens are conservative republicans! I mean who else still buys cd's?

To you it may be a myth, but others who have spent vast amounts of time amongst the downtrodden, well, we have known it all along.

 

[NetWareHead]

This thread needs this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgALJlpQXko&feature=related

 

[Pr0d1gy]

When my chicken pecked my hand today I thought how like him I am full of ingratitude and distain for the life I was given, for the infinite blessings I have received. Then I think too that from my chickens I get meat and eggs and that's the reason I tolerate being pecked on the hand, and all the work I do to care for them. But because I KNOW I'm a worthless and ungreatful blight on the universe because that is how I was made to feel, even though and despite the fact that I created God in my real self's image, I tend to see things in this way rather than project these feelings onto others just to give me a temporary and also worthless feeling of how superior I am. I call this humility, a trait that gets easily lost today, a recognition that all my need to feel superior to others and wallow in that is because I actually feel worthless. I am a worthless nothing that will pass into dust, but I once had the infinite pleasure of being pecked by myself. The only thing that is more worthless than the worthless are those who think they have value because they don't see how worthless they are. If you do not feel how crippled you are, how will you heal?

Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

This is the law of the universe and it can't be overwritten. You can either see it of live in denial. We are all the same.

I wish you posted here more often. I'm sure it confuses most of the I work hard and am tired of paying for these lazy asses to sit on their ass crowd, but those of us who actually can sit and read for more than an e-mail thank you for your contributions to this forum.

 

[HomerJS]

This kind of dog whistle shit always comes up from the right during presidential elections

Yes I know the statistics but the underlying message is "those lazy black people are taking handouts from us hard working white people"

It goes back to Reagan and "welfare queens". This kind of stuff is well documented by Lee Atwater, look it up.

As for the intelligence level of welfare recipients I would put it a step above the righties in West Va.

 

[nanette1985]

I'll share my experience with welfare.

*Note : My family was brought up to not ask for help unless either the person you are asking owes you something already, or it cannot be done with out help. I think this upbringing causes me to be baised against people who "can" do things for themselves but choose not to.

Here goes:

A relative of my gf used to work at a high school cafe, she got into an arguement with her boss and got herself fired. She then claimed unemployment for ~2 years and in that time became a worthless drunk. I remember seeing her a family gatherings and she was always complaining about not having a job and that the economy was a mess.

Once her unemployment ran out there was a lot of in family fighting about her and her kids. This woman was trying to get the family to pay for things "for her kids" but somehow managed to afford a 12 pack everyday for herself. It all stopped suddenly and I didn't hear anything about it for a few months.

At the next family gathering she showed up and started saying complaining about how she wished she could go back to work, but the doctors say she can't. Everyone looks around confused, until someone bites and asks "Why can't you work" Chronic back pain was the answer.

This is why people like myself hate this system, or more specifically the ease of abusing this system. This woman is supported by her own kids instead of supporting them as she should be. She (imo) got herself fired intentionally to recieve unemployment, and when that ran out she went after her family until that ran out, and now she is faking a "disability" to recieve welfare and god knows what else. After all this you can be damn sure to find her on her porch with a 12 pack every day. While her teenager works a part time job to keep food in the house.

This is not a unique occurance in the areas around where I live either.

Welfare and disability are two different things. I agree that they both need to be fixed.

 

[hal2kilo]

Except the welfare state alone would not have the sway to recall/elect someone.

That's why the idea that politicians give out welfare money for votes is a joke.

 

[werepossum]

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether these people were a) born lazy, b) learned it from parents or peers, c) became lazy because of welfare itself, or d) are not actually lazy at all. With permanent structural unemployment, there are no jobs for these people. Even if they suddenly self-motivate, they will either not find a job or will find one and displace someone else from the work force. It's not like these people are going to create jobs themselves just by being motivated to work. An extremely tiny percentage might open a business and employ other people, but that's about it.

You're just wringing your hands over the fact that some of these people are lazy, out of pure principle. Fine. Nothing will change the material reality of it, that they're going to be out of work with or without welfare. So we can either let them starve or not.

- wolf

The economy is not a zero sum game. If someone switches from pure consumption to producing at least part of the wealth he consumes, the society is richer for it. That helps create more jobs and more wealth.

That's not a reason to not have a safety net, but it's an excellent reason to shake loose those healthy people who try to turn it into a hammock.

 

[WHAMPOM]

This morning I posted a thread in off topic about my chicken pecked my hand.

As I was making the post, I started thinking about the chicken that pecked my hand, and people who make a career out of welfare.

I bought the chick when it was a couple of days old. For the past 5 months I have fed, watered, protected, and even built the chickens (13 chickens in all) a nice coop with an enclosed run.

The way I treated my chickens is "about" the same way the government treats those on welfare. The government feeds, protects and gives welfare recipients a place to live.

Instead of appreciating what has been given to them, both the chickens and the welfare recipients pecks the hand that feeds it.

There is a reason why chickens are called bird brained. They can not comprehend anything outside of their natural instincts.

Where does this leave people who bring crime, drugs and violence into poverty ridden areas? Are those people unable to comprehend what would happen if the government stopped providing those benefits?

When I was closing the coop up, it was right at dark. The chickens were starting to get into the roost and settle down for the night. I took the chicken that pecked at my hand, set it outside the coop on the ground. The chicken did not know what to do. It was on the ground when it knew it was supposed to be in the roost, and it was away from its friends. The chicken just stood there. I picked the chicken up and placed it back into the coop.

What would happen if the government suddenly withdrew welfare benefits? How would the people react that know no other way of life?

News! Chicken pecks the hand that eats them. So the coop will neither provide breakfast or supper?

 

[Jhhnn]

Only what gets reported.

Why do the welfare queens get dropped off at the local office in a 30K Caddy.
Why do they have the latest cell phones ($200-300)
How come they have the $1500 Flat Panel TV with XBox, Wii and a $2500 stereo system blasting.
How are they able to afford the $15 CDs but claim to not have food money?

Answer:
They have learned to manipulate the system. Others are taking care of her and it is their" stuff, so she does not have to declare it.

to you it may be a myth; to others; we have seen it happening all the time

I take it that you've spent a lot of time in welfare recipients residences to see the stuff you fantasize that they have, of which you are apparently envious.

Guess what? The vast majority of them don't have that stuff at all.

Who is this "We", anyway? You, Rush, O'Reilly, Hannity & a gaggle of gullible self righteous hangers-on?

Manipulate the system? Maybe, but not quite at the level of Mitt, whose efforts have undoubtedly landed more than a few on welfare while he & his south american investors got enormously richer..

Your post fairly oozes false attributions of the most delusional kind, a common feature of what Righties believe. You seem to regard welfare recipients as some sort of winners when they're not. Far from it.

 

[chucky2]

How do you know they don't have that stuff?

And people manipulating/abusing the system is OK because rich people manipulate/abuse their systems? Awesome.

 

[Texashiker]

Welfare and disability are two different things.

Your post got me to thinking.

Do career welfare individuals have a type of disability, a type of mental disability?

Maybe they are afraid of failure at their job, so they do not try.

Maybe they have some kind of disorder where they do not deal with stress very well?