Intel Skylake / Kaby Lake

[USER8000]

What a pathetic release Intel. I hope it was only panic mode and things get better. (I would Not void my warranty on a 1k cpu for higher clocks and lower temps by delidding.)

There is NO reason for Intel to NOT solder the lid except for getting their extra 25 cent.

Even the lowly, so-called cash strapped AMD spent the extra money for a high quality conductor.

What is weird is there are still persons that thinks AMD's TR didn't get noticed by Intel.

Intel can't even have a higher than 20 thread cpu hedt before AMD drops the 32 thread release.

I think it is because Intel must have increased clockspeeds relatively late in the cycle - I expect Skylake-X must have originally been targeted at lower stock clockspeeds where TIM would have not been an issue.

 

[Ajay]

I pre-ordered a second Skylake-X + Mobo combo. This time, 7820X + Gigabyte AORUS Gaming 7.

This is going to be a lot of fun!

Dude I'm getting jealous, it's been a while since I've been able to afford a top of the line system - an here you are getting two! Have fun!

 

[formulav8]

So Intel has real issues? The same Intel not having a real competitor since almost forever in computer years actually having release issue's not seen since x99? There were even persons bashing AMD who actually, even actually, who truly released a new architecture and platform that was bashed to death for not supporting higher than 2400 M/T ram support on release.

I've even made nice money as an Intel stock holder but I'm not a fandango. Reality is truth. Intel panicked period and/or didn't expect to have to need an answer. Now they have to begin the process of rebranding yet another Xeon CPU to out-core AMD's 16 core TR because Intel was not prepared. I wonder if they will segment more features again. No reason for Intel to cripple hedt features beyond cores. They always think of a reason though.

Will Intel at least allow mobo makers the option to validate ECC ram, like AMD does, as AMD even allows on their mainstream CPU's?

 

[SPBHM]

I think we were expecting Skylake with more cores, that's what it is but not really, the changes to cache and the mesh arrangement seem to have a negative impact on significant cases, maybe gaming is another victim of it, but it seems Intel implies is more related to power management!?
another thing with Skylake that we would expect was good power usage, well, it's not here... combined with the TIM thing, it feels like the high clocks are a late reaction to competition!? or is it just inevitable because of the changes (cache, mesh...)?
still performance is there it's very strong most of the time, and if you are willing to invest on a really good cooler and delid (RIP warranty) it can OC quite far.. but it makes you wonder about the 18 core chip, is that thing going to be like the Xeons, 2.4GHz base clock or something?

also the high risk of killing the CPU when switching from Skylake to Kabylake is...

but 10 core drop in price from the 6950X looks good, even the 7800x looks like a good competitor to the Ryzen R7 (even 1700 OC), the problem is that when you factor the cost of motherboards, high end cooling, possible delid and so on not really, but if you are going for high end MB+cooler anyway the 7800x OC is probably the better choice


still, this is probably the worst Intel "HEDT" launch ever.

 

[Shivansps]

So Intel has real issues? The same Intel not having a real competitor since almost forever in computer years actually having release issue's not seen since x99? There were even persons bashing AMD who actually, even actually, truly releasing a new architecture that was bashed to death for not supporting higher than 2400 M/T ram support on release?

What the hell you are talking about? Intel had to cancel desktop Broadwell and desktop CannonLake, those were mayor dissasters, and they did it alone. Then AMD launched Ryzen and everyone likes when Intel hurry up launches SKL-X and CFL-S, and them you come here complaining about issues... big news, if you hurry things up, there is going to be issues.

Stop trolling, thats the only thing you had been doing here, you are fishing for a reply to certain pro-AMD things for the last 3 msg already.

 

[Lyfer]

Performance is kind of what I expect. But damn those thermals. I wonder how Apple is cooling these things in the up coming iMac Pro.

 

[Shivansps]

I think we were expecting Skylake with more cores, that's what it is but not really, the changes to cache and the mesh arrangement seem to have a negative impact on significant cases, maybe gaming is another victim of it, but it seems Intel implies is more related to power management!?
another thing with Skylake that we would expect was good power usage, well, it's not here... combined with the TIM thing, it feels like the high clocks are a late reaction to competition!? or is it just inevitable because of the changes (cache, mesh...)?
still performance is there it's very strong most of the time, and if you are willing to invest on a really good cooler and delid (RIP warranty) it can OC quite far.. but it makes you wonder about the 18 core chip, is that thing going to be like the Xeons, 2.4GHz base clock or something?

also the high risk of killing the CPU when switching from Skylake to Kabylake is...

but 10 core drop in price from the 6950X looks good, even the 7800x looks like a good competitor to the Ryzen R7 (even 1700 OC), the problem is that when you factor the cost of motherboards, high end cooling, possible delid and so on not really, but if you are going for high end MB+cooler anyway the 7800x OC is probably the better choice


still, this is probably the worst Intel "HEDT" launch ever.

I do wonder about the same, there was even time? if they are shipping starting next week, they must be in mass production for a while now. But is certanly possible.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Performance is kind of what I expect. But damn those thermals. I wonder how Apple is cooling these things in the up coming iMac Pro.

Apple isn't going to be trying to run these things at the kinds of frequencies that we're trying to run them at, so I'm sure they'll be just fine.

I also suppose that in an AIO computer, Apple could cool the bare die if Intel supplies them with "delidded" versions.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I do wonder about the same, there was even time? in they are shipping starting next week, they must be in mass production since a while now. But is certanly possible.

If they are in mass production now and shipping next week, then the chips must've begun production at least three months ago, possibly longer. I suspect that the aggressive frequencies represent a reaction to competitive pressure, but for the consumer this pressure is good -- much better to have Intel wring out as much performance as possible at stock than to clock conservatively and leave it to us to OC.

Intel's competition was aggressive in terms of stock frequencies, too, which surely helped push Intel in this direction.

Great times, no matter what one's brand preference is

 

[formulav8]

Stop trolling,

Not meaning to troll if that is what you're thinking. I edited a couple things to make is clearer earlier. I never mean to troll. I was in between computer and my wife. What is posted now should be my real post. Sorry. Not saying you will still except it though or agree. Just being honest.

 

[Shivansps]

If they are in mass production now and shipping next week, then the chips must've begun production at least three months ago, possibly longer. I suspect that the aggressive frequencies represent a reaction to competitive pressure, but for the consumer this pressure is good -- much better to have Intel wring out as much performance as possible at stock than to clock conservatively and leave it to us to OC.

I'm probably going to run my SKX chips at stock, TBH.

Thats the thing, Ryzen launched just 3 months ago, the timetable to do "emergency changes", if there were any, was very very small. It may be possible.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Thats the thing, Ryzen launched just 3 months ago, the timetable to changes, if there were any, was very very small.

That's true, but remember that all of these companies have competitive analysis divisions and their jobs are to get a read on what the competition is doing and/or is likely to do and to respond. Intel likely branch predicted correctly that its competition would be aggressive on the clocks and responded accordingly.

In a competitive environment, regardless of such competitive intelligence, you want to be putting your best foot forward. Intel's competition said that it would be returning to the HEDT market and that it would build competitive products, so it would have been silly of Intel to not wring as much out of its chips at stock as possible.

Competition doesn't really impact product development much (everyone's trying to build great cores, etc.) but it sure as heck can affect what products come to market, what price it launches at, etc.

What we are seeing now is the result of competition.

 

[Shivansps]

That's true, but remember that all of these companies have competitive analysis divisions and their jobs are to get a read on what the competition is doing and/or is likely to do and to respond. Intel likely branch predicted correctly that its competition would be aggressive on the clocks and responded accordingly.

In a competitive environment, regardless of such competitive intelligence, you want to be putting your best foot forward. Intel's competition said that it would be returning to the HEDT market and that it would build competitive products, so it would have been silly of Intel to not wring as much out of its chips at stock as possible.

Competition doesn't really impact product development much (everyone's trying to build great cores, etc.) but it sure as heck can affect what products come to market, what price it launches at, etc.

What we are seeing now is the result of competition.

It whould have been better if they stopped doing things like using TIM, KBL-X or gimping the AVX if that was the case :S Thats the part were i think they had no idea of what AMD had. This seems like the worse face of Intel in a long time-

 

[Arachnotronic]

It whould have been better if they stopped doing things like using TIM or gimping the AVX if that was tthe case :S

The TIM use is unfortunate for overclocking, but I suspect there are reasons other than cost for this move. TIM can last longer/is more reliable, and doesn't use conflict metals (Intel has been talking about "conflict free" for some time). Since these chips are derived from workstation chips that won't be sold to overclockers/enthusiasts, I suspect the reliability bit overrides the OC potential that solder would have given.

But, of course, Intel's true reasoning is known to the decision makers at the company -- we on the outside can only guess.

Nevertheless, the frequency at stock is very good and there is some OC headroom left even without delidding. But, yeah, solder would've clearly allowed these chips to shine and frankly it is a bummer. I'm sure the folks who sell delidding tools are pleased about this...

As to AVX, I don't think so. In terms of AVX performance, Intel's CPUs are already quite a bit ahead of competition, but at the same time that's not really all that important in most client applications. It's a "checkbox" feature so that i9 buyers can feel that they got their money's worth, but if you're the kind of person who will actually benefit from AVX-512, you're probably not buying a consumer i7 chip to begin with

 

[formulav8]

but I suspect there are reasons other than cost for this move.

Come on buddy, it's only the cost in Intel's eyes from what it seems.

 

[Shivansps]

As to AVX, I don't think so. In terms of AVX performance, Intel's CPUs are already quite a bit ahead of competition, but at the same time that's not really all that important in most client applications. It's a "checkbox" feature so that i9 buyers can feel that they got their money's worth, but if you're the kind of person who will actually benefit from AVX-512, you're probably not buying a consumer i7 chip to begin with

It definately seems to be making a difference on encoding, and thats has to be whiout optimizations. A lot of people whould be interested in that. On HEVC even the gimped 7800X is matching a 6950X.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Come on buddy, it's only the cost in Intel's eyes.

I don't think so, these chips sell for so much that saving a few bucks per unit in exchange for tons of bad press (which will probably turn some enthusiasts off from the parts) would be...well, it'd be penny wise, pound foolish, IMHO.

There's got to be something else behind it. I wish we knew what.

 

[formulav8]

There's got to be something else behind it. I wish we knew what.

I can only see it being a touch of extra money, not sure of what else it could be honestly. Even Broadwell-E was soldered. Actually even SB-K mainstream was soldered. Intel even made a special Devils Canyon release for Haswell with what was supposed to be better tim. They apparently went back to the IB TIM or DC TIM for future chips which was still awful and is still used. Don't recall Intel ever saying anything.

But seriously sir, I can't think of a reason for Intel's HEDT CPU's not having soldered heat spreaders.

 

[Malogeek]

After waiting months for SKL-X this is a major disappointment. I had planned on ordering either the six-core or eight-core variants, but the amount of neutering going on with the 7800X is astonishing. The crap TIM, hot temps and power usage of this entire lineup is just too much to ignore.

I'd at least wait until a bunch of sites have 7800X to actually test out in detail. So far there's very little to go on for that particular model.

 

[Arachnotronic]

I can only see it being a touch of extra money, not sure of what else it could be honestly. Even Broadwell-E was soldered. Actually even SB-K mainstream was soldered. Intel even made a special Devils Canyon release for Haswell with what was supposed to be better tim. They apparently went back to the IB TIM or DC TIM was still awful and is still used. Don't recall Intel ever saying anything.

But seriously sir, I can't think o a reason for Intel's HEDT CPU's not having soldered heat spreaders.

Here's what I'm watching for: will the LGA 3647 Xeon processors be soldered? If they are, then I would buy argument that it's Intel just being cheap (and that would be really, really disappointing and sad). If even those big monsters that sell for $$$ to demanding data-center customers that don't mess around, then I would be more inclined to think there's a good technical reason.

We'll just have to see. It really does stink that Skylake X's solid silicon is being held back from its true potential by the TIM. Intel should cook up a better TIM formula

 

[Arachnotronic]

Dude I'm getting jealous, it's been a while since I've been able to afford a top of the line system - an here you are getting two! Have fun!

I recently unloaded a LOT of gear that I didn't need anymore (including a BNIB Radeon RX 480 that I had planned to use in a build but never got around to using it -- I made nearly a $200 profit on it, thank you mining craze!), which freed up some $ to spend on some Skylake-X goodness for my secondary system

 

[formulav8]

We'll just have to see. It really does stink that Skylake X's solid silicon is being held back from its true potential by the TIM. Intel should cook up a better TIM formula

Yes sir, I agree.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

^ Not so much the TIM itself (which Idontcare showed to have excellent C/W awhile back), but the manufacturing / assembly of the IHS.

 

[lolfail9001]

I think IHS and a socket 2066v2 with higher power specification could surely be on the cards. bitsandchips have been making some statements about rumours they keep hearing from their sources.

B&C are full of it most of the time, like that time they first predicted HBM on Bristol Ridge then on Raven Ridge.

bitsandchips have been spot on with Zen related information. Could you quote what they exactly said about Skylake-X 14-18 core SKUs and 2066.

You have cited it yourself.

I wonder if a 16 or 18 core chip at 4+ghz could actually exceed the power capabilities of most boards out there.

Considering that even MSI of all manufacturers had to go ahead and get themselves IR MOSFETs, Intel's power requirements on these boards are serious.

Volts mean nothing if we don't also examine current draw.

Well, that's the bad part, because it pulls 200A in peak conditions even on 1V@3.8Ghz.

But seriously sir, I can't think of a reason for Intel's HEDT CPU's not having soldered heat spreaders.

Well, think of a reason why Knight's Landing does not have soldered IHS. Yes, that 700mm^2 die is using same TIM Skylake-X is using for heat transfer.

 

[formulav8]

Well, think of a reason why Knight's Landing does not have soldered IHS. Yes, that 700mm^2 die is using same TIM Skylake-X is using for heat transfer.

OK, I would like to know the reason if you know it? For real.