Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+4+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[Jan Olšan]

he only got the core count right and the TSMC N2 Node lol

He did "guess" both alternatives, so that's like saying it will be faster, or slower, or even the same performance as Bonnel

There's just one problem: MacOS.

And the SSDs, cardinal Biggles. Two problems. And the reliability and repairability issues...

 

[regen1]

- PTL CPU is going to be just fine, just like LNL and ARL were just fine. Sure initial 18A didn't quite meet what the PDK promised and hence frequencies are same as LNL, but power and area are still great.

Yeah, PTL CPU will be alright for a refresh on u-arch for both P and E cores.
Intel never made outlandish performance or IPC gains claims on PTL even though some "leakers/rumors" had some such claims. 18A's parametric yields may be not that "great" but are above what Intel 4 had at that stage. We'll see where it evolves(18A-P onwards).

 

[Magio]

It is in a sense that Elite X2 and Zen 6 is coming. One step at a time I guess.

PTL won't really have to compete against Zen6 so it's not too bad. But Intel is lucky Windows on ARM still looks like a big compromise (to say nothing of Qualcomm's platforms not being competent Linux options either) for sure, and would do well to fix their ST stagnation fast.

 

[OneEng2]

500 MHz clock regression on the E core. I don't need any more than that to see it's a flop.

See below:

Yes it is, the ST is stagnant

Both of you seem to believe that ST performance is the ONLY thing that matters.

I think this is pretty myopic. In the market that PTL is targeted for, battery life is likely #1. PTL pulls of (what appears to be) outstanding overall performance for the power it consumes. In the laptop (especially thin and light) this is a winning combination IMO.

The comparisons to NVL are kind of silly IMO.

Sure, using the same metrics from that review puts the Radeon 8060S at 80.7 fps, 110W.

Important points in my opinion are as follows:
- PTL graphics beats AMD's mainstream 128b mobile platform in both performance and efficiency.
- PTL graphics is probably roughly on par with Strix Halo when both are running at the ideal power level for PTL. Obviously Strix Halo has far more headroom due to being an absurdly expensive 256b platform. Which is also why it doesn't scale down to PTL power levels particularly well.
- PTL CPU is going to be just fine, just like LNL and ARL were just fine. Sure initial 18A didn't quite meet what the PDK promised and hence frequencies are same as LNL, but power and area are still great.

Great points for sure. I would argue that LNL was fine (but expensive for Intel) and ARL was just "Ok".

To be fair Zen 6 should be compared against NVL.

Agree... at least in the context of outright performance.

Yea I just wanted to show why the Halo power use was so high. The desktop components use quite a bit more power, even under idle.

Strix Halo is not competition, except for the top 5% income people. The problem is less the 256-bit memory width, but the base design(motherboard, design), can't be reused from the mainstream Strix Point. AMD is also getting the unexpected benefit from the AI slop era, with people saying AMD meant it for AI first, when really, it was basically gaming and AI happened to be there. The demand would have been even lower otherwise.

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. I like the idea of halo iGPUs, but it falls flat on its face for practicality. People are enamored by halo iGPUs for two reasons, that iGPUs are cheap, and is low power. Halo fails:
-Because AMD/Intel has big iGPU not for charity purposes, but premium to get more money from you
-Then if the price is high, now you face against Nvidia, the one that actually has mindshare, and one that can use it's marketing and volume advantages to cancel out any theoretical cost advantages, and more
-The battery can be done well, but that depends on implementation. Strix Halo does this decently
-Load TDP is non-negotiable. More performance is more power.

It's likely Novalake-AX or whatever Intel does will fail for the same reason. The cheapest I think they can do system-wise is eDRAM like Intel did, in a same pinout and same memory standards and no extra shaders, so you are just benefitting from faster memory. You can get ~20-25% per W, and charge extra $100 on configuration settings. It's exactly what Intel did with non-Pro Iris parts with eDRAM.

Agree. Great point.

Look here

Dell Inc. XPS 14 DA14260 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Dell Inc. XPS 14 DA14260 with an Intel Core Ultra X7 358H processor.

browser.geekbench.com

HP HP OmniBook Ultra Flip Laptop 14-fh0xxx - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a HP HP OmniBook Ultra Flip Laptop 14-fh0xxx with an Intel Core Ultra 7 256V processor.

browser.geekbench.com

Barely any improvement in ST

Again, why is this soooooo important in this market segment?

I just purchased a new laptop for my Wife. #1 concern was battery life. After that was screen quality, then 3rd was performance (and it was a distant 3rd).

I would imagine that this is way more common that those seeking outright performance.

Where I see Intel perhaps having issues with PTL is in cost. Unless they can sell these chips at a high premium, it is likely IMO that they will have trouble with the books.

 

[511]

PTL won't really have to compete against Zen6 so it's not too bad. But Intel is lucky Windows on ARM still looks like a big compromise (to say nothing of Qualcomm's platforms not being competent Linux options either) for sure, and would do well to fix their ST stagnation fast.

Zen 6 was always late this year and Intel is preparing decent CPU performance increase for NVL >15% ST with traditional workload without APX/AVX 10.2 so NVL CPU should be good

 

[Hulk]

PTL won't really have to compete against Zen6 so it's not too bad. But Intel is lucky Windows on ARM still looks like a big compromise (to say nothing of Qualcomm's platforms not being competent Linux options either) for sure, and would do well to fix their ST stagnation fast.

I have Windows on ARM a hard look. In the end, having some idea of the machinations that are going on between ARM and x86 and the incompatibility with some of my software ended that "look."

MS went in big time with their Surface Laptop line with ARM and I don't think they have the sway they thought they did. I absolutely loved my Surface Laptop 2. I would have bought an updated Lunar Lake or Arrow Lake or AMD powered version in a minute. But no, they are all ARM and MS lost me.

x86 just seems to survive. There was a brief threat with RISC and the PowerPC but it found a lifeline with micro-ops and other cleverness. x86 always seems to find a way. At the end of the day it comes down to just finding the best way to open and close the switches and the best arrangement to place them, right? How you get there doesn't matter.

 

[511]

The reason people buy windows is to use windows stuff not for Windows on ARM you can buy a macbook it's a good machine for what it does unless your software forces reliance on windos

 

[Magio]

Where I see Intel perhaps having issues with PTL is in cost. Unless they can sell these chips at a high premium, it is likely IMO that they will have trouble with the books.

I think the X variants with the big GPU may save their asses a bit in getting Intel actual returns. It's a 55mm² die (vs 25mm² for the 4Xe) that will have very high yields on N3E so it's really not *that* much of a cost increase but it probably makes a significant difference in what they can charge OEMs for those as this iGPU is basically the only game in town if you want to advertise upgrade-worthy gaming performance without adding a full Nvidia dGPU (and a good few Watts) to your design.

Not saying it will single-handedly make for amazing margins on PTL but it'll probably at least improve their outlook there.

 

[511]

I think the X variants with the big GPU may save their asses a bit in getting Intel actual returns. It's a 55mm² die (vs 25mm² for the 4Xe) that will have very high yields on N3E so it's really not *that* much of a cost increase but it probably makes a significant difference in what they can charge OEMs for those as this iGPU is basically the only game in town if you want to advertise upgrade-worthy gaming performance without adding a full Nvidia dGPU (and a good few Watts) to your design.

Not saying it will single-handedly make for amazing margins on PTL but it'll probably at least improve their outlook there.

the biggest volume is WCL and PTL 4+0+4 though

 

[poke01]

See below:

Both of you seem to believe that ST performance is the ONLY thing that matters.

I think this is pretty myopic. In the market that PTL is targeted for, battery life is likely #1. PTL pulls of (what appears to be) outstanding overall performance for the power it consumes. In the laptop (especially thin and light) this is a winning combination IMO.

The comparisons to NVL are kind of silly IMO.

Great points for sure. I would argue that LNL was fine (but expensive for Intel) and ARL was just "Ok".

Agree... at least in the context of outright performance.

Agree. Great point.

Again, why is this soooooo important in this market segment?

I just purchased a new laptop for my Wife. #1 concern was battery life. After that was screen quality, then 3rd was performance (and it was a distant 3rd).

I would imagine that this is way more common that those seeking outright performance.

Where I see Intel perhaps having issues with PTL is in cost. Unless they can sell these chips at a high premium, it is likely IMO that they will have trouble with the books.

And why do you think Intel is so focused on battery life now and was ignoring it before lunar lake?

This number 1# feature of laptops: battery life is something Intel didn’t care so deeply until M1 and that changed their focus.

ST performance is important in laptops cause most people spend their time in the web and Apple actually delivers on excellent ST while providing good battery life. Intel knows this, they test Apple MacBooks in their labs as indicated by their edc specs.

The claim “x86 battery life king” is evident of it. If Panther lake was better using the Wh battery size than ANY ARM laptop Intel would gladly say so. So it’s good to have non-x86 competition, cause AMD is having a year off.

 

[511]

NVL is a better CPU Product feels like it

• bLLC for games
• P/E Core only SKU
• Variation in Core Count
• NEW ISA

 

[Magio]

the biggest volume is WCL and PTL 4+0+4 though

Which is why I'm not saying the X SKUs will magically make for great PTL margins all around, just that it will help counterbalance the likely poor margins on the low end.

Probably also why they're leading with those high end SKUs now when the yields aren't good yet.

 

[511]

Which is why I'm not saying the X SKUs will magically make for great PTL margins all around, just that it will help counterbalance the likely poor margins on the low end.

Probably also why they're leading with those high end SKUs now when the yields aren't good yet.

WCL is cost optimized Foremost and so is PTL 4+0+4

 

[adroc_thurston]

WCL is coat optimized Foremost

yea

PTL 4+0+4

nope.

 

[adroc_thurston]

NVL is a better CPU Product feels like it

• bLLC for games
• P/E Core only SKU
• Variation in Core Count
• NEW ISA

it's much worse since competitively they lose node and packaging advantages.
#ripbozo

 

[511]

it's much worse since competitively they lose node and packaging advantages.
#ripbozo

Time Will tell

nope

It really is the cheapest and volume part of PTL lineup

 

[adroc_thurston]

Time Will tell

It's not a 'time' thing. Right now Intel has node and pkg advantage. That is forfeit next product cycle.

It really is the cheapest and volume part of PTL lineup

Yeah but it's still pretty cashmoney due to the platform and 2.5D slab cost overhead.
WCL is actually cheap and neat and efficient and stuff.

 

[MoistOintment]

And why do you think Intel is so focused on battery life now and was ignoring it before lunar lake?

This number 1# feature of laptops: battery life is something Intel didn’t care so deeply until M1 and that changed their focus.

ST performance is important in laptops cause most people spend their time in the web and Apple actually delivers on excellent ST while providing good battery life. Intel knows this, they test Apple MacBooks in their labs as indicated by their edc specs.

The claim “x86 battery life king” is evident of it. If Panther lake was better using the Wh battery size than ANY ARM laptop Intel would gladly say so. So it’s good to have non-x86 competition, cause AMD is having a year off.

But battery life, heat, and fan noise are the primary concerns for typical laptop buyers (after cost).

The average person raving about how good the new Macbooks are isn't talking about their ST performance. They're talking about how it stays room temp while being silent, and how the battery lasts for days, and they can just open it up and use it without 'turning it on'. There are tik-toks / reels I've seen from "normie" accounts making fun of the kid with the windows laptop that has audible fan noise in the college lecture, or how they have to plug their laptop in during class.

People have genuinely grown to expect laptops to behave more like their phones: lightweight, Instant on, silent, cool, long battery.

Not that ST doesn't matter or anything - it obviously does (even more so than nT for these buyers), but if you were to ask the typical owner of a new, decently spec'ed Windows Laptop (not a professional with specific high performance CPU requirements, or a gamer who's willing to carry around a briefcase sized laptop with an hour of battery), the actual performance of the laptop is not one of their top complaints.

 

[poke01]

Not that ST doesn't matter or anything - it obviously does (even more so than nT for these buyers), but if you were to ask the typical owner of a new, decently spec'ed Windows Laptop (not a professional with specific high performance CPU requirements, or a gamer who's willing to carry around a briefcase sized laptop with an hour of battery), the actual performance of the laptop is not one of their top complaints

I remember when M1 launched there were countless videos about people opening a bunch of applications from cold boot and comparing it to Tiger Lake laptops. IMO, ST is also perceived performance and is something you feel.

I instantly noticed my Win11 install feeling a lot more smoother when I upgraded from Zen4 to Zen5.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I remember when M1 launched there were countless videos about people opening a bunch of applications from cold boot and comparing it to Tiger Lake laptops. IMO, ST is also perceived per

M1 did not have an 1t advantage on TGL.

 

[511]

I instantly noticed my Win11 install feeling a lot more smoother when I upgraded from Zen4 to Zen5.

Microsoft on it's way to nullify ST performance to preload copilot app on your mouse click

 

[fastandfurious6]

This is very hard to believe

Is there a clear Halo vs PTL comparison anywhere?

Notebookcheck

I checked: Halo has x2 FPS than PTL in most cases

literally double FPS... chip released entire year ago

too bad Halo is limited availability bc of AMD's gimped laptop/OEMs division. ASUS announced a new Halo model: their budget "TUF Gaming" series now has a light 14'' 1.3kg model with Halo https://www.notebookcheck.net/TUF-G...op-with-new-AMD-Ryzen-AI-9-465.1199024.0.html

it's on a better path (Halo lower prices👍) but definitely not The Product that conquers market

 

[fastandfurious6]

MSI Stealth 16 AI+ ditches AMD Strix Point in favor of Intel Panther Lake-H, features up to Nvidia RTX 5090 Laptop with new Cooler Boost tech

MSI has unveiled a new Stealth 16 AI+ Copilot+ PC at CES 2026 powered by the latest Intel Pather Lake-H Core Ultra 9 386H, up to a 125 W Nvidia GeForce RTX 5090 Laptop, and up to 128 GB DDR5 RAM. The Stealth 16 AI+ now comes with a new Cooler Boost Intra Flow designed for the thin chassis while...

www.notebookcheck.net

Lmao what are OEMs even doing

Who on earth on MSI ordered this: "on laptop with RTX5090 dGPU, remove the superior STX CPU in favor of PTL which has way way worse CPU"

 

[MoistOintment]

I checked: Halo has x2 FPS than PTL in most cases

literally double FPS... chip released entire year ago

too bad Halo is limited availability bc of AMD's gimped laptop/OEMs division.

At great extra cost. It's not unavailable because of a gimped OEM division. It's unavailable because it's expensive and needs its own custom Motherboards that are incompatible with regular Strixpoint.

Intel has the right idea with PTL-X: Same exact motherboard as PTL-U and PTL-H. That's much more important to OEMs.

Also, Strix Halo is what, an iGPU with 4x the die size, 2x the TDP, the 2x the bandwidth? And can't even run FSR4

Who on earth on MSI ordered this: "on laptop with RTX5090 dGPU, remove the superior STX CPU in favor of PTL which has way way worse CPU"

Way worse based on what benchmarks? If PTL-H is matching Strix Performance at lower power consumption, that allows more power to go to the dGPU in the same thermal headroom.

 

[fastandfurious6]

[Halo] At great extra cost. It's not unavailable because of a gimped OEM division. It's unavailable because it's expensive

yes and no:

AMD could release the 8core+40CU Halo last year, not last moment (they just did that now with Halo 388)

If AMD's mobile division wasn't gimped, Halo 388 would be out January 2025: heavily pushed, high production, "semi-subsidized"/lower prices and with great design wins i.e. a killer product which is still missed in the market.

If that happened, PTL wouldn't exist today. DOA.

The subsidy/push costs would pay for themselves as AMD would dominate the iGPU gaming market and keep dominating with Medusa.

If PTL-H is matching Strix Performance at lower power consumption

That's a big if. It doesn't at all.

PTL's CPU is weak.
STX does circles around it especially MT.
PTL's only advantage is the GPU perf which is what Intel is pushing. Only because AMD's mobile division is gimped 😉 stuck with old RDNA3.5, STXp is a weird chip in expensive SKUs and Halo too expensive because of bad decisions/deals