Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[vanplayer]

I wonder if Arrow lake performs like this because it should be this way, or if it is somehow broken but it would require such a long time or expense to fix it, that Intel simply gave up and released it as is.

I wonder if the problem is not related to the disaggregation of the CPU. There are too many pieces in the puzzle and each of them needs to be 100% in order. This must be a nightmare to make.

Move on, there's nothing should be fixed here. Everything was projected and exposed by IgorsLab last year. It is what it is.



If there's something has to be fixed, it might be the tile latency issue which was already there in Meteorlake. I can imagine the engineers tried their best to mitigate the latency, and here's what we get. No surprise. It's just few people put to much hope on it.

Skymont is another story but I don't wanna discuss yet.

Oh I forget to mentioned, TSMC N3B is not a good node. I suspect it plays a big role here.

 

[cannedlake240]

ARL will create a whole lot of drama but it's not even top 5 in Intel's problems. It's all almost trivial compared to fabs, financials and missing out on AI

 

[AcrosTinus]

ARL will create a whole lot of drama but it's not even top 5 in Intel's problems. It's all almost trivial compared to fabs, financials and missing out on AI

Are we on a different planet ?
The fabs are alright, just not leading the market.
Financials are depressed due to high investment into nodes and R&D and everyone missed out on AI if Nvidia is your benchmark even AMD. I would argue that Gaudi with IBM is a good enough solution as well as Xeon focusing on inference performance where most services will be in the future.

ARL is just another consumer chip that must be pushed out of the pipeline to hopefully make way for the next and better generation, again the average consumer does not lack CPU performance they are overserved.

 

[Kocicak]

...
ARL is just another consumer chip that must be pushed out of the pipeline to hopefully make way for the next and better generation, again the average consumer does not lack CPU performance - they are overserved.

Highest tier consumer CPU is also a small fraction of all PC CPUs sold.

I do not think that having a new CPU generation that brings massively better integrated graphics and new features as the NPU, and better efficiency while stagnating in raw computing performance is such a tragedy many people are saying (or shouting).

13600 and 14600K CPUs for PC were hard to beat and a great value and there is no reason why the succesors should be different.

I think that the only REAL PROBLEM Intel has at this moment in this segment is that they have no special gaming CPU to compete with AMD 3D offerings.

 

[cannedlake240]

Are we on a different planet ?
The fabs are alright, just not leading the market.
Financials are depressed due to high investment into nodes and R&D and everyone missed out on AI if Nvidia is your benchmark even AMD. I would argue that Gaudi with IBM is a good enough solution as well as Xeon focusing on inference performance where most services will be in the future.

ARL is just another consumer chip that must be pushed out of the pipeline to hopefully make way for the next and better generation, again the average consumer does not lack CPU performance they are overserved.

Not saying Intel will necessarily fail in fixing those issues, it's just they are more complex and put Arrow lake struggles into perspective

 

[Josh128]

Wafer prices and quantities are negotiated in advance, and then the contract stays as signed. AMD and Intel may have come to TSMC at the same time seeking capacity. AMD found price of N3 to expensive and instead retrofitted Zen 5 to N4 (at some expense in terms of manpower and features). Intel just said fine, and is paying the higher price. Thinking that Intel is not paying substantially higher price for N3 wafers than AMD is paying for N5/N4 is just being in LaLa Land. AMD would have stayed with their original plan to use N3 for Zen 5 if that was the case.

Intel likely secured this 3nm quite early, possibly before AMD decided that they were not going to use 4nm. In the time that AMD decided they were going to stick with 4nm from Zen 4 to Zen 5, pricing renegotiation would have had to take place. Huang was probably already producing boatloads of Ada and Hopper GPUs and AMD was producing MI-300X and EPYC, most of which are more profitable per mm2 than client CPU. Im not saying the 4nm is more expensive than the 3, Im saying its very close or on par-- and even if its not, it still has pricing pressure because AMD can repurpose the same die not selling on desktop to be use in EPYC, which commands a higher price. All of this adds up to Zen 5 being expensive. AMD has no incentive to lower the price, its better for them to just be content with selling the silicon in other products.

We'll see who is right very soon. I'd be willing to bet that Arrow Lake will not be any more expensive than launch pricing of Zen 5, and could actually have cheaper launch pricing, which would validate my line of thinking here.

 

[511]

Are we on a different planet ?
The fabs are alright, just not leading the market.
Financials are depressed due to high investment into nodes and R&D and everyone missed out on AI if Nvidia is your benchmark even AMD. I would argue that Gaudi with IBM is a good enough solution as well as Xeon focusing on inference performance where most services will be in the future.

Xeon 6 is verified for MGX/DGX and it is shipped by default i think that's a good collab for Intel along with this and the nodes don't get me started nodes can't be magically produced in few years it is such a capital intensive biz no one dares to enter people only exit the biz along with gaudi Ibm Was with Intels event to showcase what they liked about gaudi it's not the hq but the sw and security solutions which they were attracted to alongside costs hope 14A bets pays off

ARL is just another consumer chip that must be pushed out of the pipeline to hopefully make way for the next and better generation, again the average consumer does not lack CPU performance they are overserved.

Hopefully the efficiency/General usage won't be disappointing Gaming is disappointed

 

[KompuKare]

Or Intel's REAL PROBLEM is that ARL doesn't really move things* while TSMC N3B is expensive and helps a rival fab.

* At least in terms of performance, power consumption seems better but then Raptor Lake was an Emergency Edition

Oh I forget to mentioned, TSMC N3B is not a good node. I suspect it plays a big role here.

Or N3B is not the problem but rather Intel are too dependent on high clock speeds. Hopefully N3B has solved Intel's power problems

 

[Wolverine2349]

I wonder if Arrow lake performs like this because it should be this way, or if it is somehow broken but it would require such a long time or expense to fix it, that Intel simply gave up and released it as is.

I wonder if the problem is not related to the disaggregation of the CPU. There are too many pieces in the puzzle and each of them needs to be 100% in order. This must be a nightmare to make.

Well they better release something at least on par with Raptor Lake across 99% of gaming workloads. Or its a big fail!!

I wanted a CPU with more than 8 cores on a single die with a good scheduler. Arrow Lake was my last and only hope for near future. Yeah sure its heterogenous, but the Intel thread director works great and no cross latency severe hit unlike AMD crossing Infinity fabric. And AMD scheduling also sucks compared to intel on dual CCDs unlike Intel thread director which seems much better. And more than 16 threads with real cores and no SMT/HT is cool too. But it may be all for naught.

Now I sold my 7800X3D and got offers at higher $300 used price very fast and even $200 for a mobo which is hard these days day after listing for sale on FB marketplace, laptop downgrade backup gaming system using spare parts in hopes Arrow Lake is the answer.

But it may not be sadly!!

Could go right back to X3D 8 core and be stuck at 8 cores darn depending on how the reviews go in 15 days.

Well if there is any silver lining

AMD is about to drop prices so getting back into X3D build new may not be as high as what I got for used 7800X3D parts when the iron was hot due to 7800X3D shortage.

I have my options open.

 

[Wolverine2349]

Xeon 6 is verified for MGX/DGX and it is shipped by default i think that's a good collab for Intel along with this and the nodes don't get me started nodes can't be magically produced in few years it is such a capital intensive biz no one dares to enter people only exit the biz along with gaudi Ibm Was with Intels event to showcase what they liked about gaudi it's not the hq but the sw and security solutions which they were attracted to alongside costs hope 14A bets pays off

Hopefully the efficiency/General usage won't be disappointing Gaming is disappointed

I am holding out hope that gaming is not disappointing. We have no idea until we see Gamers Nexus and Hardware unboxed and others review them officially with an RTX 4090 on October 24.

 

[Wolverine2349]

ARL will create a whole lot of drama but it's not even top 5 in Intel's problems. It's all almost trivial compared to fabs, financials and missing out on AI

Misisng out on AI is a good thing for intel. That whole bubble wil burst so fast. AI is crap and sucks. Good for intel for missing out on AI. I hate AI

Matrix and Terminator anyone!!

 

[AcrosTinus]

Not saying Intel will necessarily fail in fixing those issues, it's just they are more complex and put Arrow lake struggles into perspective

You might be right, I will be waiting for reviews before being really disappointed. If they provide the knobs to unleash the chip like Tile frequency and ringbus, maybe I can turn things up to 11 and restore the 300W beast with a true performance advantage over the 14900K, it is a overclocker chip first and foremost,

 

[511]

I think that U5/U7 will fare much better especially the U5 will be competitor to R7

 

[AcrosTinus]

Highest tier consumer CPU is also a small fraction of all PC CPUs sold.

I do not think that having a new CPU generation that brings massively better integrated graphics and new features as the NPU, and better efficiency while stagnating in raw computing performance is such a tragedy many people are saying (or shouting).

13600 and 14600K CPUs for PC were hard to beat and a great value and there is no reason why the succesors should be different.

I think that the only REAL PROBLEM Intel has at this moment in this segment is that they have no special gaming CPU to compete with AMD 3D offerings.

I fully agree with you but people are not rational, they want to see a winner, a shining beacon of performance even though no one in the average consumer space does anything with the performance of a 14900K/9950/7950 and so on. They need a 4090 class product to show the fickle investors that they are in control and the blue ship is not sinking.

 

[igor_kavinski]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1843598034250412141

Shame on you, Pat. Is this your show of triumph after cutting fruits and coffee for your employees?

 

[Wolverine2349]

I think that U5/U7 will fare much better especially the U5 will be competitor to R7

I am most interested by far in the U7

8 P cores still and more than 8 strong e-cores. 16 too many e-cores. 8 is too few.

I like 8 + 12 with no HT/SMT. More than 16 real cores no SMT/HT

 

[511]

I am most interested by far in the U7

8 P cores still and more than 8 strong e-cores. 16 too many e-cores. 8 is too few.

I like 8 + 12 with no HT/SMT. More than 16 real cores no SMT/HT

You are lucky prices are nice
Zen 5 for reference

 

[511]

Shame on you, Pat. Is this your show of triumph after cutting fruits and coffee for your employees?

Don't worry he cut things for Investors as well and he already had a cut in compensation there is only so much you can blame on him

 

[Wolverine2349]

You are lucky prices are nice View attachment 109003
Zen 5 for reference
View attachment 109004

Looks priced similar to 13th and 14th Gen. How can they do that with the expensive N3B node? Or is it not as expensive as it seems?

As long as performance is on par gaming with Raptor Lake across 99% of gaming workloads and it is stable and does not degrade even overclocked its all good and I like those prices.

 

[cannedlake240]

You are lucky prices are nice View attachment 109003
Zen 5 for reference
View attachment 109004

What's more expensive: monolithic 260mm2 on Intel 7 or 100mm2 N3 and N6 + foveros and a tiny N5 gfx tile? The difference might not be that much tbh, N3 CPU tile yields must be way higher, they get more i9s and i7s per wafer

 

[511]

Looks priced similar to 13th and 14th Gen. How can they do that with the expensive N3B node? Or is it not as expensive as it seems?

Either they took a margin hit or the tile coat structure is not horrendous remember 100mm2 is N6 alongside 24mm2 N5 IGPU 12mm2 IO N6 CPU is something we have to figure out

As long as performance is on par gaming with Raptor Lake across 99% of gaming workloads and it is stable and does not degrade even overclocked its all good and I like those prices.

 

[511]

What's more expensive: monolithic 260mm2 on Intel 7 or 100mm2 N3 and N6 + foveros and a tiny N5 gfx tile? The difference might not be that much tbh, N3 CPU tile yields must be way higher, they get more i9s and i7s per wafer

Intel 7 is closer to N5 in price so approx 11K wafer N6 is 8-9K wafer smaller die as well let me pull out the calculator

 

[Det0x]

You are lucky prices are nice View attachment 109003
Zen 5 for reference
View attachment 109004

Seems like Intel have taken Ian Cutress quote to heart 👍
"There are no bad products, only bad prices"

Arrow Lake seems very reasonable priced

 

[Josh128]

Seems like Intel have taken Ian Cutress quote to heart 👍
"There are no bad products, only bad prices"

Arrow Lake seems very reasonable priced
View attachment 109005

They got to witness first hand how AMD's launch went/is going with similar performance and much worse pricing. Looks like I was right about N3 vs N4 pricing / demand. This is quite fair I think, lets see how perf shakes out.

On a side note, I thought it was recently rumored that there would be no KF SKUs??

 

[Hitman928]

They got to witness first hand how AMD's launch went/is going with similar performance and much worse pricing. Looks like I was right about N3 vs N4 pricing / demand. This is quite fair I think, lets see how perf shakes out.

On a side note, I thought it was recently rumored that there would be no KF SKUs??

TSMC N3B is very expensive for Intel. They commented on it multiple times in their latest earnings call. It is one of the key factors they identified for low gross margin forecasts for the end of the year and into 2025.