Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[branch_suggestion]

Intel 4 is closer to N3 (than N5 or N6).

No, in most metrics it is just behind vanilla N5 , i7 is about on par with vanilla N7.
i3 is around N4ish, 18A looks to be around N3P, which is bad considering GAA/PowerVia vs FinFET.
14A is the one that is supposed to beat A16 which is the all in TSMC GAA/BSPDN.

Whats kraken?

Kraken Point, the step down from Strix.

AMD just don't have the connections and the volume, and I don't know why at this point. Their APUs have been excellent for years now, but they're still losing out to Intel left right and center. My only conclusion is that Intel can out manufacture them with the sheer capacity of their fabs, while AMD has to fight Nvidia and Apple for space.

It is a very entrenched space where turf can be defended with flooding the channel, which is what Intel has done.
Not as entrenched as enterprise but that is pure c-suite golf marketing.

 

[511]

Huang guy's LNL tests say otherwise. He compared Crestmont on the CPU tile vs Crestmont on the N6 soc tile, both showed similar perf at the same power(cores without package). Idk could be that soc is using an ultra efficient variant of N6.

He tested with horrendous uncore of Meteor Lake LP-E Crestmont is on die with IMC

https://twitter.com/x/status/1832124179166171485

Well to be fair, they are currently experiencing probably the most severe brain drain in years, talent both new and old, lifers are leaving for other companies. They had hoped for a turnaround when Pat came back but instead the stock got pummeled even more mainly because of foundry expenses, Intel's pay already wasn't great vs. likes of alphabet, apple

Yeah the pay difference is something also some old timers are just way loyal if they retire it will be a lot of talent drain these are the guys that built crazy stuff
AMD Zen 5 Turin Software Trailer

 

[511]

No, in most metrics it is just behind vanilla N5 , i7 is about on par with vanilla N7.
i3 is around N4ish, 18A looks to be around N3P, which is bad considering GAA/PowerVia vs FinFET.

FWIW
N2 is 5-10% ahead of N3P but starts Manufacturing Ready in H2 25 while N3P is same time as 18A so it's parity at the least which is nice at least they matched it

14A is the one that is supposed to beat A16 which is the all in TSMC GAA/BSPDN.

Kraken Point, the step down from Strix.

It is a very entrenched space where turf can be defended with flooding the channel, which is what Intel has done.
Not as entrenched as enterprise but that is pure c-suite golf marketing.

14 is High NA with DSA ( Directed Self assembly) it's a big gamble as well

 

[KompuKare]

Zenbook S 14 Standard Model 72Wh(Ultra 7 258V, 17W PL1) Link
View attachment 108252

Zenbook S 16 78Wh(AI 9 HX 370, 28W PL1) Link
View attachment 108253

Both of them have 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD and the same? OLED display only in different size, so I think a pretty good comparison.

1.) Battery life looks very good, a lot better than Strix.
2.) Lower price than Strix, 1899€ vs 2299€ in my country.
3.) CPU performance is ok, IGP very good
4.) Best perf is at 28W, but It's noisy and they measured temps only with Standard profile.
View attachment 108254

LNL is pretty good, ok I would have liked 4P+8E cores, but whatever.
My biggest problem with LNL laptops is the price and that they are too thin limiting the cooling as shown above.

P.S. I wonder for how much they want to sell handhelds with LNL?

I rather suspect that a very similar display but 14" vs 16" does make a huge difference.

Laptop reviews are tricky to compare at the best of times, but in this case driving only external displays would be far more useful IMO.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Kraken Point, the step down from Strix.

And you expect what from It?
It should be 4*Zen5 + 4*Zen5c and 8CU IGP according to leaks.

 

[Tup3x]

And you expect what from It?
It should be 4*Zen5 + 4*Zen5c and 8CU IGP according to leaks.

I don't think it has any chance against Lunar Lake. Strix is already missed opportunity.

 

[Abwx]

AMD dropped the ball with the disappointing Strix and the only reasons to consider buying it instead are its niche of high MT performance.

There s nothing disappointing, that s just bla bla, and since when much better MT perf, just 60%+, at same power and format is niche.?

If the tables were turned you would say that AMD is too little and too late,
truth is that Intel want to sell i3 perf level at i7 prices, and the GPU save nothing
because in the past AMD had much more powerfull GPU but weaker CPU and it
didnt matter, the same who were pointing the powefull GPU as useless for mobile are now praising it as the best thing ever, how things change suddenly.

 

[branch_suggestion]

I don't think it has any chance against Lunar Lake. Strix is already missed opportunity.

It doesn't compete against Lunar, far cheaper machines.
Lunar machines are looking as expensive as Strix, if not even more expensive.

 

[Nothingness]

I'm sorry, but what you wrote in response is gibberish. I asked what new ideas/solutions Mx and Zen5 bring and you told me about energy efficiency and a better predictor. These are completely new solutions and ideas . Massacre.

The predictor idea in Zen5 dates back to the 90's, if you didn't know, and Mx introduces absolutely no new ideas beyond a significant core expansion, including a huge L1-I and L1-D cache.

You should look at when the first paper about TAGE was published, and when it won the branch prediction competition. Hint: it was not in the last century.

 

[rainy]

I don't think it has any chance against Lunar Lake. Strix is already missed opportunity.

Kraken Point is not direct competition of Lunar Lake - most probably they will be in different price brackets.

 

[511]

Kraken is 3+5 iirc this is an Intel thread btw so it will definitely loose to lunar lake 🙂

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

It doesn't compete against Lunar, far cheaper machines.
Lunar machines are looking as expensive as Strix, if not even more expensive.

Comparable LNL laptop is actually cheaper, at least Asus Zenbook.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

There s nothing disappointing, that s just bla bla, and since when much better MT perf, just 60%+, at same power and format is niche.?

I would love If there was a 4P+8E LNL, but honestly I wouldn't have a use for It, I have 8C PHX and it has more than enough power for me, IGP could be faster but whatever .

So my question for you is how many people actually use more than 8 cores in a ultraportable laptop? I am waiting for a proof that It's actually not only a small part of the market.
BTW, both LNL and Strix are overprized, but at least in my country Asus Zenbook S with LNL is 400€(1899€ vs 2299€) cheaper. That is not a small amount.

 

[AMDK11]

You should look at when the first paper about TAGE was published, and when it won the branch prediction competition. Hint: it was not in the last century.

Zen 5’s 2-Ahead Branch Predictor Unit: How a 30 Year Old Idea Allows for New Tricks:

Zen 5’s 2-Ahead Branch Predictor Unit: How a 30 Year Old Idea Allows for New Tricks

When I recently interviewed Mike Clark, he told me, “…you’ll see the actual foundational lift play out in the future on Zen 6, even though it was really Zen 5 that set the table for that.” And at that same Zen 5 architecture event, AMD’s Chief Technology Officer Mark Papermaster said, “Zen 5 is...

chipsandcheese.com

Intel first introduced the TAGE predictor in Haswell.
The first working Haswell(sample) was presented in 2011.

 

[cebri1]

Really hope we'll soon have a larger offering of LNL designs because the chips themselves are basically everything I wanted out of my next upgrade.

I would love If there was a 4P+8E LNL, but honestly I wouldn't have a use for It, I have 8C PHX and it has more than enough power for me, IGP could be faster but whatever .

So my question for you is how many people actually use more than 8 cores in a ultraportable laptop? I am waiting for a proof that It's actually not only a small part of the market.
BTW, both LNL and Strix are overprized, but at least in my country Asus Zenbook S with LNL is 400€(1899€ vs 2299€) cheaper. That is not a small amount.

We need a new N series with 8x Skymont and a 130V.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

We need a new N series with 8x Skymont and a 130V.

If It has 32GB RAM and the same IGP then why not? BTW, I also don't need that NPU.

 

[cannedlake240]

He tested with horrendous uncore of Meteor Lake LP-E Crestmont is on die with IMC

Wasn't there another test that excludes uncore power and on the basis of IA core power draw? Again this could be due to process optimization. Crestmont-LP only goes up to 2.5Ghz, whereas the CPU Crestmont could probably do 4Ghz.

Everything hinges on Panther lake. If Intel delivers better than N3P perf/W, it's a win. Density is there, the big questions are perf/W and yields

 

[Nothingness]

Zen 5’s 2-Ahead Branch Predictor Unit: How a 30 Year Old Idea Allows for New Tricks:

Zen 5’s 2-Ahead Branch Predictor Unit: How a 30 Year Old Idea Allows for New Tricks

When I recently interviewed Mike Clark, he told me, “…you’ll see the actual foundational lift play out in the future on Zen 6, even though it was really Zen 5 that set the table for that.” And at that same Zen 5 architecture event, AMD’s Chief Technology Officer Mark Papermaster said, “Zen 5 is...

chipsandcheese.com

You think old ideas don't make sense on modern micro-architectures? Breaking news: micro-architectures don't advance with brand new shiny ideas or breakthroughs; they advance by refinements and good balancing.

 

[cannedlake240]

We need a new N series with 8x Skymont and a 130V.

Closest thing they got is Wildcat lake apparently but it has P cores(a P core?) and like 2Xe cores. Hope it inherits LNL efficiency, at least partially since it's rumored to be on 18A

 

[Magio]

I think we're a couple gens away from an E cores only CPU providing an actually good experience.

Single threaded perf is still super important for general responsiveness in day to day tasks and we saw from the attached graph that Skymont just can't scale like Lion Cove after a certain point.

50%+ peak perf means Skymont would top out below 2000 on GB6, that's Tiger Lake level ST perf. At lower power draw, sure, but still.

Add that not every gen will be as big a jump as Crestmont > Skymont, and P cores remain a necessity for the foreseeable future.

 

[Abwx]

I would love If there was a 4P+8E LNL, but honestly I wouldn't have a use for It, I have 8C PHX and it has more than enough power for me, IGP could be faster but whatever .

So my question for you is how many people actually use more than 8 cores in a ultraportable laptop? I am waiting for a proof that It's actually not only a small part of the market.
BTW, both LNL and Strix are overprized, but at least in my country Asus Zenbook S with LNL is 400€(1899€ vs 2299€) cheaper. That is not a small amount.

Strix is of another class at +60% better perfs at same power, so why should it be priced the same.?

LNL is lacking in the CPU part, in MT that s 6800U level of perf and perf/Watt,
and compared to a 8840U it s worse at 30W but also at 15W, so the low power branding was just marketing as it is used at 30W anyway in all configurations, wich make things even worse.

It would have been good in 2021 before Phoenix was released but at current competition it will be soon exhausted as a fast osoleting part, hstoricaly for laptops the more the throughput the longer the usability over time as generaly there s nothing that could be upgraded in those items.

 

[AMDK11]

You think old ideas don't make sense on modern micro-architectures? Breaking news: micro-architectures don't advance with brand new shiny ideas or breakthroughs; they advance by refinements and good balancing.

How did you come to the conclusion that I think so? I have never written this anywhere. I had in mind the discussion with David C1, who starts a given topic and then gives his arguments in a convoluted way, which are not the answer. That's all. He sees Zen5 as a revolution (it is a revolution), which I don't deny, but in LionCove he sees only expansion. Discussion with him is biased, non-technical and non-substantive.

The predictor in Zen5 is an idea from 30 years ago, but only now its technical implementation makes sense (transistor packing and complexity)


The TAGE predictor was first used by Intel in Haswell, the first working sample of which was presented in 2011.

Edit:
DavidC1 wrote that LionCove does not introduce any new ideas, which is not true. His bias prevents him from seeing the fundamental changes LionCove is making, which provides insight into Cove's future development. He thinks Mont/Wolf will replace Cove, which is complete nonsense. But will he be able to admit his mistake?

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Strix is of another class at +60% better perfs at same power, so why should it be priced the same.?

LNL is lacking in the CPU part, in MT that s 6800U level of perf and perf/Watt,
and compared to a 8840U it s worse at 30W but also at 15W, so the low power branding was just marketing as it is used at 30W anyway in all configurations, wich make things even worse.

It would have been good in 2021 before Phoenix was released but at current competition it will be soon exhausted as a fast osoleting part, hstoricaly for laptops the more the throughput the longer the usability over time as generaly there s nothing that could be upgraded in those items.

And where did I say It should be priced the same?
You are acting like nT performance is some holy grail and the rest doesn't matter, but for ultraportables that's not true. LNL has 8 cores, that's good enough.

BTW, please answer my question from my previous post.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Wildcat lake apparently but it has P cores(a P core?) and like 2Xe cores.

No, think so.

Hope it inherits LNL efficiency

Not quite. A solid chunk of LNL platform power benefits are buried in money-spending options like PMICs or MOP. Super-alien stuff for mainstream parts.

I would love If there was a 4P+8E LNL

That's PTL-H.

Comparable LNL laptop is actually cheaper, at least Asus Zenbook.

There isn't an S14 Zenbook with Strix.

 

[Abwx]

And where did I say It should be priced the same?
You are acting like nT performance is some holy grail and the rest doesn't matter, but for ultraportables that's not true.

BTW, please answer my question from my previous post.

LNL has same MT throuhgput and efficency as a 6C/12T Phoenix 2 7540U, i would expect in a 1400€ laptop better MT perf and perf/Watt than laptops sold at 600-650€,
more than 2x the price at same MT perf just because of the GPU.?.

That s the magic of the marketing, actual numbers are not even considered, to the point that a CPU that should be in the sub 1000€ laptop market is accepted as being valuable at 1400€ if not 2000€.