Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Preliminary Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing ADL-N. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q2/Computex 2026. In case people don't remember AlderLake-N, I have created a table below to compare the detail specs of ADL-N and WCL. Just for fun, I am throwing LNL and upcoming Mediatek D9500 SoC.

		Intel Alder Lake - N	Intel Wildcat Lake	Intel Lunar Lake		Mediatek D9500
Launch Date		Q1-2023	Q2-2026 ?	Q3-2024		Q3-2025
Model		Intel N300	?	Core Ultra 7 268V		Dimensity 9500 5G
Dies		2	2	2		1
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		TSMC N3P
CPU		8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		C1 1+3+4
Threads		8	6	8		8
Max Clock		3.8 GHz	?	5 GHz
L3 Cache		6 MB	?	12 MB
TDP		7 W	Fanless ?	17 W		Fanless
Memory		64-bit LPDDR5-4800	64-bit LPDDR5-6800 ?	128-bit LPDDR5X-8533		64-bit LPDDR5X-10667
Size		16 GB	?	32 GB		24 GB ?
Bandwidth			~ 55 GB/s	136 GB/s		85.6 GB/s
GPU		UHD Graphics		Arc 140V		G1 Ultra
EU / Xe		32 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		12
Max Clock		1.25 GHz		2 GHz
NPU		NA	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		100 TOPS ?

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[Abwx]

He's being extra silly and trying to downplay modern computing environments those high-CC chips are made for.
They're all endless fields of VMs and containers and VMs and containers aka what things like Genoa or Bergamo or Turins are made for.

Cute but he's not gonna have a good 2024.

I edited my post to put things in perspective, 2x 60C SPR is competitive with the 2x 64C Epyc perfs wise but at 2x the power, hardly a great achievement.

 

[H433x0n]

He's being extra silly and trying to downplay modern computing environments those high-CC chips are made for.
They're all endless fields of VMs and containers and VMs and containers aka what things like Genoa or Bergamo or Turins are made for.

Cute but he's not gonna have a good 2024.

Again, I don’t care about data center. It doesn’t excite me at all. I have a vested interest in the products I plan to buy (Arrow Lake & RTX 5090) and the health / competitiveness of IFS and that’s about it. If the R9 8950X has an insane 30-40% ST performance increase, that’s much more interesting since that’s a product I’d actually buy.

I don’t think Phoronix created that suite of benchmarks as an anti-AMD conspiracy. Their results still show SPR is losing by a wide margin and in some instances shows Genoa doubling SPR’s performance.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I have a vested interest in the products I plan to buy (Arrow Lake & RTX 5090) and the health / competitiveness of IFS and that’s about it

Ah okay you're just being silly.
Better start waiting for Panther Lake.
oh, and IFS is and will forever be a joke unless Xinnie forces TSMC out of existence.

I don’t think Phoronix created that suite of benchmarks as an anti-AMD conspiracy

It just doesn't map to the way modern computing in DC goes.

 

[A///]

Haha, fair enough. Though if I need to hear another year of this, might have to borrow @A/// 's coping strategy.

I drink wine because I enjoy it. whether intel succeeds or goes bankrupt doesn't affect my bottom dollar. now if the us went through prohibition again then we've got a problem on our hands.

And you've seen me enough on this forum to know I'm not just BSing myself. Hope I've established a little credibility.

there are days where you sound like an intel employee and days where you sound like an employee of a company intel partners with in the nw region. life's a walnut innit.

 

[Abwx]

If the R9 8950X has an insane 30-40% ST performance increase, that’s much more interesting since that’s a product I’d actually buy.

This wont happen because frequency is already pushed to the max, they can eventually grab a few percent but no more, the big uplift will be in IPC but nothing close to those numbers, likely that they gain enough in this department to be competitive with whatever Intel has projected for their own client CPUs for the two or three years to come.

 

[adroc_thurston]

the big uplift will be in IPC but nothing close to those numbers

it's an Apple-class core lol; gigantic IPC uplifit over the relatively skinny Zen3/Zen4 is the idea (it's literally the only thing that would fly on N3-onwards, other scaling knobs like freq or SRAM piles are fully tapped out).
Not in any way different from Nuvia Phoenix or Lion Cove.

 

[Exist50]

there are days where you sound like an intel employee and days where you sound like an employee of a company intel partners with in the nw region. life's a walnut innit.

Nah, just know a lot of people. Well, some current and more former, that is. A couple from AMD as well, but people don't seem to care what I have to say about them, lol.

 

[H433x0n]

Ah okay you're just being silly.
Better start waiting for Panther Lake.

Again, this is another example where I know that what you’re saying is a vast overstatement.

Arrow Lake is one of 2 projects in the entire company that have to report regularly to the very top of Intel’s management. It’s not going to end up as some unmitigated disaster.

These aren’t some crazy claims I’m making, it’s a very easy position to stake out. If ARL just has meager architectural improvements, it’s going to end up performing better than what you’ve claimed here. I don’t have a ton of faith in Intel CPU design teams, but even I think they can manage that.

This forum needs a RemindMe bot for situations like this.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Arrow Lake is one of 2 projects in the entire company that have to report regularly to the very top of Intel’s management. It’s not going to end up as some unmitigated disaster.

That's not the issue.

If ARL just has meager architectural improvements

Lion Cove is a great all-around core but there are caveats that only really are relevant for desktop.

 

[Exist50]

He's giving me the same vibes as MLID on a most probably non existent Royal Cores

Agree with the general sentiment, but Royal is very much real, even if MLID has no idea what it is.

 

[A///]

Nah, just know a lot of people. Well, some current and more former, that is. A couple from AMD as well, but people don't seem to care what I have to say about them, lol.

If you say so. I only know retired Intel people through introductions, know former AMD and Ati. As I never involved myself with either company or ati for that matter you wall yourself off from potential friends but there's a lot of fun and quirky people in non 86. even the people you hate at work can turn out to be real good people and become friends in the face of mass layoffs when the company is seeking profit on profit and the layoffs are an itchy jerk decision by c level twats.

 

[A///]

even if MLID has no idea what it is.

I'm surprised the monkey doesn't eat his own excrement. there is something are many things wrong with that boy.

 

[adroc_thurston]

I'm surprised the monkey doesn't eat his own excrement

Someone still feeds him perfectly legit slideware occasionally, though.

 

[A///]

Someone still feeds him perfectly legit slideware occasionally, though.

what's that dead in the face bloke who intel hired that looks like mark zuckerburg? bet it's him.

 

[adroc_thurston]

what's that dead in the face bloke who intel hired that looks like mark zuckerburg?

lmao Shrout

 

[S'renne]

That's not the issue.

Lion Cove is a great all-around core but there are caveats that only really are relevant for desktop.

Wasn't it also Intel that stated they'll be focused more on client side market until their server processors can catch up to AMD? (Or it's just them losing the lead in server products) Yeah no surprise that there are more designs that's relevant for desktop then...

 

[S'renne]

it's an Apple-class core lol; gigantic IPC uplifit over the relatively skinny Zen3/Zen4 is the idea (it's literally the only thing that would fly on N3-onwards, other scaling knobs like freq or SRAM piles are fully tapped out).
Not in any way different from Nuvia Phoenix or Lion Cove.

I think it'd be the same with Arrow Lake, similar core designs for IPC increase across all companies for desktop processors simply due to physical constraints in node process. Also, is it not possible for Intel to use N3E for Arrow Lake desktop, and 20A PowerVia for mobile to ensure supply is saturated for both markets while meeting the criteria for different requirements?

There's also not much known about Arrow Lake at the moment I think unless there's more leaks on that, so you can't just claim Zen 5 is so overwhelmingly superior when you've only known AMD's side of things.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Also, is it not possible for Intel to use N3E for Arrow Lake desktop, and 20A PowerVia for mobile to ensure supply is saturated for both markets while meeting the criteria for different requirements?

That was the plan lol, but things changed.

I think it'd be the same with Arrow Lake, similar core designs for IPC increase across all companies for desktop processors simply due to physical constraints in node process

Right on target; some vendors are just better at hitting that clock targets than the others, though.

There's also not much known about Arrow Lake at the moment I think unless there's more leaks on that

I ballpark know where it'll land perf-wise and it doesn't look good on DT.
Mobile is a lot more interesting but there it's hamstrung by silly design decisions made for MTL so waiting for Lunar-U it is.
And the latter might still derail itself but things are looking a lot more rosy than for MTL/ARL duo.

so you can't just claim Zen 5 is so overwhelmingly superior when you've only known AMD's side of things.

I know both; that's the thing.
Splendid effort by Intel but AMD's just better.
better luck next time! (for both Intel and Nuvia anyhow).

 

[S'renne]

That was the plan lol, but things changed.

Right on target; some vendors are just better at hitting that clock targets than the others, though.

I ballpark know where it'll land perf-wise and it doesn't look good on DT.
Mobile is a lot more interesting but there its hamstrung by silly design decisions made for MTL so waiting for Lunar-U it is.

I know both; that's the thing.
Splendid effort by Intel by AMD's just better.
better luck next time! (for both Intel and Nuvia anyhow).

You know both, but refuses to provide sources or evidence besides claiming that it's classified information when there's already people posting stuff like Crystal Forest's socket on another thread....

 

[H433x0n]

I ballpark know where it'll land perf-wise and it doesn't look good on DT.

If you know a ballpark range of where it's supposed to end up, then share it. It's hardly going to lead to a witch hunt internally if you share a general range of where ST performance is destined to line up. Otherwise, what's the point of saying this stuff?

 

[poke01]

I know both; that's the thing.
Splendid effort by Intel but AMD's just better.
better luck next time! (for both Intel and Nuvia anyhow)

How is Apple's M3 compared to Lion cove and Zen 5?

 

[Thunder 57]

Well Zen4c is literally just Zen4, but clocks less.
Not really that different at all.

Ehhh i3 will be offered as an IFS node so should be similar enough given any kind of IFS offering requires the node to support very much industry standard design flows.

Oh lol I have quite some news for you.

So Zen4c is just less clocks? Not density optimized or with less L3 cache? If you don't know about current hardware how can we take your word on future hardware?

Haha, fair enough. Though if I need to hear another year of this, might have to borrow @A/// 's coping strategy.

I have subscribed to that strategy.

 

[inf64]

If you know a ballpark range of where it's supposed to end up, then share it. It's hardly going to lead to a witch hunt internally if you share a general range of where ST performance is destined to line up. Otherwise, what's the point of saying this stuff?

I think it's a safe bet that intel went for yet another ~19% IPC increase versus previous gen (which is a derivative of GoldenCove with minor tweaks). Since intel has hit a very high clock level, there is little chance that ArrowLake will hit >6Ghz clock speeds, so all they have is the IPC uplift. Similar is true for AMD when it comes to clocks, I doubt that they can hit >6Ghz with Zen 5. It will come down to IPC uplifts in this gen of products, a pretty close battle I think.

 

[adroc_thurston]

So Zen4c is just less clocks?

Yea.

Not density optimized or with less L3 cache?

A whole lot of modern DC workloads don't really care if L3 got gutted a bit.

I think it's a safe bet that intel went for yet another ~19% IPC increase versus previous gen (which is a derivative of GoldenCove with minor tweaks). Since intel has hit a very high clock level, there is little chance that ArrowLake will hit >6Ghz clock speeds, so all they have is the IPC uplift

Oh no, LNC is very very different to everything Intel has done to date.

 

[coercitiv]

I can certainly believe this is just trolling, but I know there's at least some substance to his claims

You're just getting confused because some of the discourse makes sense. Ignore the information, look at the posting tone and intensity.

On this forum we've listened to this tune a thousand times: new account, energy and confidence for days. They make zero attempts to establish a reputation (as in prediction/leak history). Some of us feel compelled to address their claims because they warp discussions on all important threads of the sub-forum. It goes on for weeks, maybe more. Then one day... poof, instant balloon deflation. AMD, Intel, Apple... we had them all. It does not matter that their engineering background appears solid. We've even had one outstanding case whom I'm personally convinced was not medicating properly during some of the episodes. (not joking)

So do yourself a favor and save your mental bandwidth for people who engage in honest conversation, disagreement or not.