Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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Apr 1, 2022
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Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

Intel Raptor Lake UIntel Wildcat Lake 15W?Intel Lunar LakeIntel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch DateQ1-2024Q2-2026Q3-2024Q1-2026
ModelIntel 150UIntel Core 7Core Ultra 7 268VCore Ultra 7 365
Dies2223
NodeIntel 7 + ?Intel 18-A + TSMC N6TSMC N3B + N6Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU2 P-core + 8 E-cores2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads12688
Max Clock5.4 GHz?5 GHz4.8 GHz
L3 Cache12 MB12 MB12 MB
TDP15 - 55 W15 W ?17 - 37 W25 - 55 W
Memory128-bit LPDDR5-520064-bit LPDDR5128-bit LPDDR5x-8533128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size96 GB32 GB128 GB
Bandwidth136 GB/s
GPUIntel GraphicsIntel GraphicsArc 140VIntel Graphics
RTNoNoYESYES
EU / Xe96 EU2 Xe8 Xe4 Xe
Max Clock1.3 GHz?2 GHz2.5 GHz
NPUGNA 3.018 TOPS48 TOPS49 TOPS






PPT1.jpg
PPT2.jpg
PPT3.jpg



As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



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dullard

dullard

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DrMrLordX said:
Malaysia is only packaging.
Click to expand...
Tariffs depend a lot on fine grey lines. If a wafer (or chip from a wafer) is shipped to the US, then whatever relevant tariff applies to that wafer/chip from that country of origin (Taiwan or soon to be China). But, if a third country such as Malaysia "substantially transforms" the wafer or chip from a wafer then Malaysia is the country of origin. The tariffs could be significantly different with different countries of origin.

So the fine line is whether packaging a chip is a substantial transformation or not.
"Repackaging, dilution with water, and similar minor processes usually do NOT cause a substantial transformation. Assembly or disassembly may result in a substantial transformation, depending on the nature of the products involved and the complexity of the operations." https://www.trade.gov/rules-origin-substantial-transformation
 
GTracing

GTracing

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Aug 6, 2021
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dullard said:
Tariffs depend a lot on fine grey lines. If a wafer (or chip from a wafer) is shipped to the US, then whatever relevant tariff applies to that wafer/chip from that country of origin (Taiwan or soon to be China). But, if a third country such as Malaysia "substantially transforms" the wafer or chip from a wafer then Malaysia is the country of origin. The tariffs could be significantly different with different countries of origin.

So the fine line is whether packaging a chip is a substantial transformation or not.
"Repackaging, dilution with water, and similar minor processes usually do NOT cause a substantial transformation. Assembly or disassembly may result in a substantial transformation, depending on the nature of the products involved and the complexity of the operations." https://www.trade.gov/rules-origin-substantial-transformation
Click to expand...
FWIW, Ryzen CPUs say "Made in Malaysia" on them.

1738168833263.jpeg
 
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LightningZ71

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Packaging CPUs qualifies as a "substantial transformation" as it involves taking a functional, but practically unusable piece of silicon and transforms it into a larger, fully packaged and usable device. CPU packaging isn't just shoving a stuffed animal in a box for shipping. It involves intricate electrical connections, substantial manufacturing efforts, and adding a great deal more hardware to the device.
 
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dullard

dullard

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LightningZ71 said:
Packaging CPUs qualifies as a "substantial transformation" as it involves taking a functional, but practically unusable piece of silicon and transforms it into a larger, fully packaged and usable device. CPU packaging isn't just shoving a stuffed animal in a box for shipping. It involves intricate electrical connections, substantial manufacturing efforts, and adding a great deal more hardware to the device.
Click to expand...
You are trying to apply logic to a political debate with a Trump tariff. Plus, just last year the supreme court ruled that experts on the topic don't get to make the decisions on the fine grey lines--only courts which might know nothing of the topic get to decide (see the Chevron Deference case). It has everything to do with emotional politics and nothing to do with logic like that.
 
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LightningZ71

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Normally, I'd agree with you. For these CPUs in particular, they are considered to be from Malaysia for tariff purposes TODAY. That doesn't mean that they can't change the laws/regs that govern this mess TOMORROW, but, for now, the tariff wouldn't apply on CPUs packaged in Malaysia.
 
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dullard

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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LightningZ71 said:
Normally, I'd agree with you. For these CPUs in particular, they are considered to be from Malaysia for tariff purposes TODAY. That doesn't mean that they can't change the laws/regs that govern this mess TOMORROW, but, for now, the tariff wouldn't apply on CPUs packaged in Malaysia.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you don't agree with me. But, I think your disagreement is actually with this statement:
DrMrLordX said:
Malaysia is only packaging.
Click to expand...
Tariff-wise you don't consider Malaysia as ONLY packaging since ONLY packaging would likely make Malaysia not be the country of origin. There is a lot more to put together a processor than what a lay person would think ONLY packaging entails. It should come down to the value add piece. Is there significant value added with all the stuff done in Malaysia to be a substantial transformation. Of course, all that is thrown out with the politics we have now.
 
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Khato

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Jul 15, 2001
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Heh, I wonder if they'd even attempt to base such a tariff on country of origin. Rather just go with any device containing semiconductors below 28nm class diffused in Taiwan. No sneaky way to get around it and they get the tariff on the value of the imported device rather than just the TSMC silicon.

Certainly would be a boon to Intel were such to happen... Well, assuming that they don't divest Intel Foundry in advance of such happening.
 
DrMrLordX

DrMrLordX

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Let's be honest, if you're the one applying tariffs and you see people bypassing them with a packaging facility in Malaysia, are you going to slap tariffs on CPUs packaged in Malaysia? Assuming the packaging somehow bypasses the tariffs?

Probably, yes.
 
O

OneEng2

Golden Member
Sep 19, 2022
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DrMrLordX said:
Let's be honest, if you're the one applying tariffs and you see people bypassing them with a packaging facility in Malaysia, are you going to slap tariffs on CPUs packaged in Malaysia? Assuming the packaging somehow bypasses the tariffs?

Probably, yes.
Click to expand...

511 said:
Yeah but I don't think he is that smart but anyway only time will tell
Click to expand...
Trump Process:

1) Say something really scary
2) Lots of wealthy corporations and rich people give you whatever you want not to do scary thing
3) Change mind
4) Rince and repeat.
 
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511

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OneEng2 said:
Trump Process:

1) Say something really scary
2) Lots of wealthy corporations and rich people give you whatever you want not to do scary thing
3) Change mind
4) Rince and repeat.
Click to expand...
Yeah but he is the president of US so even things like that are scary for companies that is why even bluff works
 
C

cannedlake240

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Jul 4, 2024
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Lol 2025 was supposed to be THE year Intel returns to form with Diamond Rapids, Falcon, 18A and Nova Lake. I guess in hindsight there was no way they were going to accomplish all that. Now the next estimate for recovery is 2029 at best, after four years Intel is back at square one. DCAI(both traditional & AI) is in shambles, no major foundry clients, maybe NVL will be another "Alder lake moment" or similar
 
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Kepler_L2

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cannedlake240 said:
Lol 2025 was supposed to be THE year Intel returns to form with Diamond Rapids, Falcon, 18A and Nova Lake. I guess in hindsight there was no way they were going to accomplish all that. Now the next estimate for recovery is 2029 at best, after four years Intel is back at square one. DCAI(both traditional & AI) is in shambles, no major foundry clients, maybe NVL will be another "Alder lake moment" or similar
Click to expand...
DMR and NVL were never 2025.
 
5

511

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2024
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igor_kavinski said:
Billions in R&D over the past 5 years and the best they could come up with was nArrow Lake.
Click to expand...
They wasted most of it on Fab btw NVL Leaks

> Is the mobile die/mid range desktop die 4+8 now? With LP E-cores on the SOC tile for the mobile sku to match PTL's mobile core counts for NVL?

NVL has a unified HUB/SoC die across mobile and desktop. So yeah, the baseline there is 4+8+4. But there's at least one more die for mobile. So you'll probably see something like:

NVL-SK: 2x 8+16
NVL-HX: 1x 8+16
NVL-S / NVL-H: 4+8
NVL-U: 4+0

> Damn, also it really sounds like Holthaus is almost easing everyone outside Intel into the idea of DC products going external? I think she mentioned it a couple of times in their most recent earnings calls, including this one.

I would be surprised if they go external for DC. But the DMR successor might force their hand if 14A isn't ready. The timing there will be tight if they're still holding out...
 
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Geddagod

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Dec 28, 2021
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511 said:
They wasted most of it on Fab btw NVL Leaks

> Is the mobile die/mid range desktop die 4+8 now? With LP E-cores on the SOC tile for the mobile sku to match PTL's mobile core counts for NVL?

NVL has a unified HUB/SoC die across mobile and desktop. So yeah, the baseline there is 4+8+4. But there's at least one more die for mobile. So you'll probably see something like:

NVL-SK: 2x 8+16
NVL-HX: 1x 8+16
NVL-S / NVL-H: 4+8
NVL-U: 4+0

> Damn, also it really sounds like Holthaus is almost easing everyone outside Intel into the idea of DC products going external? I think she mentioned it a couple of times in their most recent earnings calls, including this one.

I would be surprised if they go external for DC. But the DMR successor might force their hand if 14A isn't ready. The timing there will be tight if they're still holding out...
Click to expand...
I struggle to see how AMD can compete with Zen 6 now in nT at least. Idk how important that will be for them, considering I fully expect them to have the gaming crown by a decent margin, but still.
 
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