Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

Wildcat Lake (WCL) Specs

Intel Wildcat Lake (WCL) is upcoming mobile SoC replacing Raptor Lake-U. WCL consists of 2 tiles: compute tile and PCD tile. It is true single die consists of CPU, GPU and NPU that is fabbed by 18-A process. Last time I checked, PCD tile is fabbed by TSMC N6 process. They are connected through UCIe, not D2D; a first from Intel. Expecting launching in Q1 2026.

		Intel Raptor Lake U	Intel Wildcat Lake 15W?	Intel Lunar Lake		Intel Panther Lake 4+0+4
Launch Date		Q1-2024	Q2-2026	Q3-2024		Q1-2026
Model		Intel 150U	Intel Core 7	Core Ultra 7 268V		Core Ultra 7 365
Dies		2	2	2		3
Node		Intel 7 + ?	Intel 18-A + TSMC N6	TSMC N3B + N6		Intel 18-A + Intel 3 + TSMC N6
CPU		2 P-core + 8 E-cores	2 P-core + 4 LP E-cores	4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores		4 P-core + 4 LP E-cores
Threads		12	6	8		8
Max Clock		5.4 GHz	?	5 GHz		4.8 GHz
L3 Cache		12 MB		12 MB		12 MB
TDP		15 - 55 W	15 W ?	17 - 37 W		25 - 55 W
Memory		128-bit LPDDR5-5200	64-bit LPDDR5	128-bit LPDDR5x-8533		128-bit LPDDR5x-7467
Size		96 GB		32 GB		128 GB
Bandwidth				136 GB/s
GPU		Intel Graphics	Intel Graphics	Arc 140V		Intel Graphics
RT		No	No	YES		YES
EU / Xe		96 EU	2 Xe	8 Xe		4 Xe
Max Clock		1.3 GHz	?	2 GHz		2.5 GHz
NPU		GNA 3.0	18 TOPS	48 TOPS		49 TOPS

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[Wolverine2349]

How about 2P+40E? I can already hear @ondma screaming!

Tbh, ST performance is king (even now). It's way more important than MT. More ST, much better. Even for mundane tasks like browsing or office apps.

A thought experiment. Imagine having 256 cores that run at 1x speed each or just 2 cores that run at 100x speed each. Every single app will do better on the 2 cores. Not just games, even browsers. They'll run at blinding speed.

Most of the people don't benefit fully from having tons of cores. It's mostly bragging rights. But almost everyone benefits from having very high ST. Higher ST rules!

Yes agree assuming by single thread more than 1 core but not spammed with so many and thus too many cores.

Like 8-12 high performing cores on a single node is the sweet spot. Too bad it maxes out at 8 on a single node/die/ring bus/CCX from either company.

Best balance of multi thread and single thread and lightly threaded and finite threaded performance for consumer desktop and gaming.

 

[ondma]

From Digitimes Asia:
Some more confirmation that Lunar Lake is delayed: Lunar Lake not shipping until September instead of expected June.
This means LL laptops will miss the back to school sales rush for sure, and may have poor availability for the end of year holiday season.
Speculation is that it is due to poor yields on the TSMC N3B node.
Wonder what that means for ARL availability?? (rhetorical question, BTW) 5 or 6 months behind Zen 5 may not be such a stretch after all.
Yes, I know the article did not mention ARL specifically, but since the highest end chips are on the same node, and Intel has switched priority to LL, further delays to ARL definitely seem possible.

 

[dullard]

From Digitimes Asia:
Some more confirmation that Lunar Lake is delayed: Lunar Lake not shipping until September instead of expected June.
This means LL laptops will miss the back to school sales rush for sure, and may have poor availability for the end of year holiday season.
Speculation is that it is due to poor yields on the TSMC N3B node.
Wonder what that means for ARL availability?? (rhetorical question, BTW) 5 or 6 months behind Zen 5 may not be such a stretch after all.
Yes, I know the article did not mention ARL specifically, but since the highest end chips are on the same node, and Intel has switched priority to LL, further delays to ARL definitely seem possible.

TSMC just started producing Lunar Lake tiles this Tuesday. There was absolutely no possible way they would be a June launch. The tiles can't be produced, shipped to Intel, assembled, tested, packaged, and shipped to OEMs in any quantity in a week and a half. No, it will be a Q3 2024 launch that has been reported for quite some time, not a Q2 launch in June.

TSMC Begins 3 nm Production for Intel's "Lunar Lake" and "Arrow Lake" Tiles

TSMC has commenced mass-production of chips for Intel on its 3 nm EUV FinFET foundry node, according to a report by Taiwan industry observer DigiTimes. Intel is using the TSMC 3 nm node for the compute tile of its upcoming Core Ultra 300 "Lunar Lake" processor. The company went into depth about...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[dullard]

How about 2P+40E? I can already hear @ondma screaming!

Tbh, ST performance is king (even now). It's way more important than MT. More ST, much better. Even for mundane tasks like browsing or office apps.

A thought experiment. Imagine having 256 cores that run at 1x speed each or just 2 cores that run at 100x speed each. Every single app will do better on the 2 cores. Not just games, even browsers. They'll run at blinding speed.

Most of the people don't benefit fully from having tons of cores. It's mostly bragging rights. But almost everyone benefits from having very high ST. Higher ST rules!

You hit a point of diminishing returns on the power/performance graphs. Pumping ~125 W / 2 = ~62.5 W into each of two P cores won't really get you much performance gains. That is, even if they could be cooled at that power (heck, it would be a lot worse at turbo power levels). At least from what I've seen in past chips (I can't predict future chips), the sweet spot is much closer to 6 P cores.

Plus, there are plenty of software programs that require 4 or 6 fast threads. Those might come to a crawl on a 2P+40E chip. But, there is a much smaller subset of software that needs more than 6 fast threads, but less than 9, and can't use the E cores efficiently. In fact, I can think of no software that fits that bill. That is why I like the 6 P core design for fast ST performance and fill the rest with as many E cores as is reasonable in the power budget for MT performance.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[Henry swagger]

(Based on publicly available info. Not a leak)

Just came across this regarding Rentable Units. Sounds bad.

This was posted by Ian 2 years ago.

View attachment 101621

Some background: Back in 2016, Ian wrote an AT article on Soft Machines VISC. Then, a few years ago, there were rumors that Intel is working on Rentable Units and it's based on its soft machines acquisition. Back in Oct 29, 2020, Intel did apply for a patent based on the same. But in 2022, Ian said that it got mothballed. No more news beyond that. Thats a serious concern.

Also, some of these factors like design & hardware complexity, increased die area and power usage might also have contributed to the decision. Can't confirm.

It appears, RU rumor is gonna stay just a rumor after all.

he is wrong lol

 

[AMDK11]

Regarding Lion Cove, Intel, emphasizing the division of the schedule into separate for ALU and separate for FPU, shows P-Core graphics with 10x ALU and 8x FPU for future generations

 

[DavidC1]

From Digitimes Asia:
Some more confirmation that Lunar Lake is delayed: Lunar Lake not shipping until September instead of expected June.

Ok, but Digitimes is a hit-and-miss. Was it ever delayed or is it like the Meteorlake GPU tile, N5 or N3 question? It was never N3, but outlets reported that they had problems and they had to use N5 or some nonsense.

@AMDK11
Regarding Lion Cove, Intel, emphasizing the division of the schedule into separate for ALU and separate for FPU, shows P-Core graphics with 10x ALU and 8x FPU for future generations

That just tells me that they are expanding without much thought. Like 8x branch capability. All that for 14% gain?

 

[DavidC1]

Also, some of these factors like design & hardware complexity, increased die area and power usage might also have contributed to the decision. Can't confirm.

It appears, RU rumor is gonna stay just a rumor after all.

If you listen to what @Exist50 has been saying then he expects it post-2026 or even later. That doesn't sound like a project without significant issues.

Yea I hope the E core team continues to execute. Arctic Wolf = 30% and in two years another 30% gain? Now we're threatening not just the P core team from both companies, but Apple.

 

[Hulk]

Well wouldn't it be just as performant single thread as doesn't single thread mean only 1 core? Or does single thread also mean more than 1 core, but limited amount beyond 1 core for SMT?

Almost nothing outside of ST benchmarks are single thread. But, there are applications that will spawn quite a few threads but only really put pressure on 2 or 3, or maybe 4 or 5. That is what I mean by ST performance. If these "supporting threads" are carried by Raptor strength Skymont cores we might only need 4 or 6 Lion Cove cores.

The E's don't look to be the weaklings they used to be.

 

[Hulk]

Also, one nice thing about the Intel hybrid architecture is that we can test various configurations. 6+12 or 8+8 in different applications and see if the result is what we expect?

Let's do some of that once ARL arrives and see how the various configurations perform. We could each take a different software application and test a few configurations and then compile in a spreadsheet.

 

[tamz_msc]

Regarding the lack of HT, now I just run my Tiger Lake with HT off. Everything feels snappier - especially initial startup. Like it is much faster to settle down after a fresh Windows boot.

App launch time has decreased, even responsiveness within apps has noticeably improved.

I have little doubt that Lion Cove will feel even more responsive than Raptor Lake, despite the lack of HT and "only" a 14% IPC uplift.

 

[dullard]

The E's don't look to be the weaklings they used to be.

That, and the impression that many people stick with of the E cores is from initial reviews before any software was coded to differentiate the cores. It doesn't take much effort to specify the proper core to run on when starting a thread. And no one knows better than the programmer what emphasis the thread should have. Each day when more software comes out or older software is upgraded, the E cores get utilized better and better.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Afaik 8+32 was cancelled in favor of bigger NPU on ARL-R.

Ugh why. You don't need an NPU on desktop skus. They have discreet graphics to cover that base, unless it's some kind of latency-sensitive AI workload.

Spamming even more e-cores (regardless of how good they are compared to previous-gen e-cores) isn't exactly the best idea because Amdahl's Law does bite you in the end, but sacrificing die area to an NPU seems even less useful.

 

[ondma]

Almost nothing outside of ST benchmarks are single thread. But, there are applications that will spawn quite a few threads but only really put pressure on 2 or 3, or maybe 4 or 5. That is what I mean by ST performance. If these "supporting threads" are carried by Raptor strength Skymont cores we might only need 4 or 6 Lion Cove cores.

The E's don't look to be the weaklings they used to be.

How about gaming? Are games going to finally be able to use the E cores?

 

[SiliconFly]

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[TESKATLIPOKA]

I have little doubt that Lion Cove will feel even more responsive than Raptor Lake, despite the lack of HT and "only" a 14% IPC uplift.

HT has nothing to do with the CPUs responsiveness.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

More performance, less power. Why wouldn't you want that. Unless you fall into the false belief that you want P cores for things like gaming.

For maxing that CPU 6P+24E you would need 30 threads, with HT It's 36. How many desktop Apps can use that many? Actually, more users would be hurt by dropping 2 P cores than having extra E-cores.

And P-cores are faster for gaming than E-cores, that's a fact.

If ARL does not have HT, then 8P+24E for 32 threads is my limit for desktop. Anything more is in my opinion server(cloud) market.

 

[SiliconFly]

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[Hulk]

As for

For maxing that CPU 6P+24E you would need 30 threads, with HT It's 36. How many desktop Apps can use that many? Actually, more users would be hurt by dropping 2 P cores than having extra E-cores.

And P-cores are faster for gaming than E-cores, that's a fact.

If ARL does not have HT, then 8P+24E for 32 threads is my limit for desktop. Anything more is in my opinion server(cloud) market.

Good points. You might be right. That's why if some of us get ARL it would be interesting to do some testing.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

You seem to be too certain. Disabling HT might actually improve scheduling and responsiveness. Might be one of the key reasons some prefer to disable it.

Please read what I was quoting, when I wrote that. Then you will understand, why I wrote that.

 

[AMDK11]

That just tells me that they are expanding without much thought. Like 8x branch capability. All that for 14% gain?

On average +14% IPC is without AVX512 and HT. The IPC curve of Zen 4 and Zen 5 includes AVX512 and probably SMT.

Going from ALU 5 to 6 is an increase of +20%.

We'll see how much ArrowLake will gain.

 

[inf64]

On average +14% IPC is without AVX512 and HT. The IPC curve of Zen 4 and Zen 5 includes AVX512 and probably SMT.

Going from ALU 5 to 6 is an increase of +20%.

We'll see how much ArrowLake will gain.

You are giving too much credit to ALU increase. Zen 5 has 50% more ALU units (4 to 6) and gets "only" ~16% IPC according to AMD's number (the only one we have so far). If it were that easy to simply slap on ALU/AGUs or execution ports and get "free" IPC, everyone would have a field day. It's super complicated dance of resources and power and has 100s of variables. It's basically a tradeoff every time.

 

[CouncilorIrissa]

You are giving too much credit to ALU increase. Zen 5 has 50% more ALU units (4 to 6) and gets "only" ~16% IPC according to AMD's number (the only one we have so far). If it were that easy to simply slap on ALU/AGUs or execution ports and get "free" IPC, everyone would have a field day. It's super complicated dance of resources and power and has 100s of variables. It's basically a tradeoff every time.

Yes.
If unit and resource counts were all that mattered, then GLC would be far ahead of Persephone (Z4 core uarch), and it's on par.