Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Hougy]

View attachment 82610

ARL and LNL don’t have hyperthreading?

Oh man... The SMT4 guy would've been so sad... 😥

 

[Exist50]

Guess it means fewer side-channel vulnerabilities. Also less heat generation. And less cache contention. Why pretend to have virtual cores when you can have plentiful E-cores. Interesting move. Is AMD gonna do the same?

Heat, I don't think really factors in. SMT is a significant net improvement to throughput efficiency. But the E-cores are even better in that role, and there are the side channel considerations as you mention. At the end of the day, however, this is most likely a design tradeoff/compromise. It's certainly going to hurt Cinebench scores and such.

AMD will probably spend a lot of time debating this topic over the next couple of years. I think the big question is whether this signifies a permanent shift in Intel's strategy (including for server), or if it's only a temporary move for client-only LNC.

 

[Thunder 57]

Oh man... The SMT4 guy would've been so sad... 😥

Lulz. Zen 3 will have SMT4 despite all evidence to the contrary. AMD should release a "double 3600" cheaper than a 3800X. What a clown. Sad part is I don't think he was a troll.

 

[H433x0n]

Lol

Man you have to keep up. Way too much faith in Intel as if they're throwing everything on their own processes.

I acknowledge that ARL-S has a high probability of being on N3. I genuinely didn't know that was the case with LNL as well. I can't find it anywhere on the internet either.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Lulz. Zen 3 will have SMT4 despite all evidence to the contrary. AMD should release a "double 3600" cheaper than a 3800X. What a clown. Sad part is I don't think he was a troll.

Those were two different people actually but the point still stands.

 

[hemedans]

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GMK to launch Intel 14/Ultra Mini-PCs with integrated GPU as powerful as GTX 1650 Ti/RTX 3050 series The first company officially confirms to launch next-gen Core series. GMKtec is a Chinese manufacturer of small form factor systems based on Intel and AMD hardware. The most recent launch...

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Mtl igpu
I just wish intel wont Abandon i5 and i3 and gave them good igpu

 

[Kepler_L2]

Heat, I don't think really factors in. SMT is a significant net improvement to throughput efficiency. But the E-cores are even better in that role, and there are the side channel considerations as you mention. At the end of the day, however, this is most likely a design tradeoff/compromise. It's certainly going to hurt Cinebench scores and such.

AMD will probably spend a lot of time debating this topic over the next couple of years. I think the big question is whether this signifies a permanent shift in Intel's strategy (including for server), or if it's only a temporary move for client-only LNC.

AMD will almost certainly go in the same direction.

 

[poke01]

It's inherent to Lion Cove, for better or worse. ARL will have the same restrictions as Lunar Lake.

M1 doesn't have SMT either. Now I expect great results from Lunar Lake and Arrow.

Hyper threading doesn't make something automatically better.

 

[mikk]

If there is no SMT on Lion Cove maybe they need a 8+32 config or how could they increase MT over RPL-R? With IPC improvements only?

 

[adroc_thurston]

With IPC improvements only?

that's the idea yes.
The age of really chungus IPC bumps is steadily crawling back in.

Now I expect great results from Lunar Lake and Arrow.

I'm sorry bro.

 

[LightningZ71]

Wow, I feel somewhat vindicated after being drug pretty hard a few months back for proposing that Intel would do better to make their big cores all-in for single thread throughput at the expense of SMT...

 

[poke01]

I'm sorry bro

If you don't think Arrow and Lunar both based on TSMC 3nm with uarchs based on efficiency first design and with their big cores also focusing on high ST performance then I don't what to say.

Arrow lake will be bigger than Alder lake was for desktop and same with Lunar for Ultra thin laptops. This is Intel's first time using TSMC node for CPUs and their engineers can go all out without worries of node delays.

 

[poke01]

Wow, I feel somewhat vindicated after being drug pretty hard a few months back for proposing that Intel would do better to make their big cores all-in for single thread throughput at the expense of SMT...

Yeah I thought that. There is a reason why ARM cores forfeit SMT it's not needed when you have ecores and SMT also has other issues.

The M series and the upcoming Nuvia chips don't have SMT has well. Maybe LNC is the start but either way it's exciting to follow the CPU industry now

 

[adroc_thurston]

If you don't think Arrow and Lunar both based on TSMC 3nm with uarchs based on efficiency first design and with their big cores also focusing on high ST performance then I don't what to say.

The reality is a bit different to that.

Arrow lake will be bigger than Alder lake was for desktop and same with Lunar for Ultra thin laptops

I wish it was but alas.
Lunar will be decent though.

it's not needed when you have ecores

Vulcan-derived designs had SMT and were very much ARMv8.
It's just a question of spending validation time for it.

Oh and Samsung M6 also had SMT planned in (for phones, no less).

 

[poke01]

Vulcan-derived designs had SMT and were very much ARMv8.
It's just a question of spending validation time for it.

Oh and Samsung M6 also had SMT planned in (for phones, no less).

lets look at great ARM SoCs like Apple's and Qualcomms. None of Apple designs had SMT.

I wish it was but alas.
Lunar will be decent though.

Arrow uses the same core design???

 

[Glo.]

It's inherent to Lion Cove, for better or worse. ARL will have the same restrictions as Lunar Lake.

Guess what?

I absolutely love this.

Now I am VERY, VERY interested in those architectures .

 

[adroc_thurston]

lets look at great ARM SoCs like Apple's and Qualcomms

Again, it's just a question of validation.

Arrow uses the same core design???

If only your average SoC was just sea-of-cores.

 

[H433x0n]

If you don't think Arrow and Lunar both based on TSMC 3nm with uarchs based on efficiency first design and with their big cores also focusing on high ST performance then I don't what to say.

Lunar Lake isn’t planned to be on N3, not at the moment at least. Arrow Lake seems likely to use N3 for desktop (unless something crazy happens), Lunar Lake is intended as a derisk product for 20A/18A.

 

[Tigerick]

Ha, Golden Pig Upgrade @ Bilibili claimed that Intel 20A is gone missing....




It seems like Arrowlake will be fully based on TSMC's N3 node, and if anybody still believe Lunar Lake will be based on 18A, come back next year

 

[Kepler_L2]

Ha, Golden Pig Upgrade @ Bilibili claimed that Intel 20A is gone missing....

View attachment 82631


It seems like Arrowlake will be fully based on TSMC's N3 node, and if anybody still believe Lunar Lake will be based on 18A, come back next year

Intel and node issues, name a more iconic duo.

 

[Tigerick]

Intel and node issues, name a more iconic duo.

Yeah, history has repeated itself. Do you have any idea what is going to replace 2P+8E 20A die? Will it replace by TSMC die or Lunar Lake as 2P+4E die?

 

[ondma]

No SMT on LNL makes sense coz it's an ultra low power core.

ARL lacking SMT doesn't seem plausible.

I agree. I would take this claim with a huge grain of salt. Only way this would make sense for ArL at all is if they did indeed produce an 8+32 configuration, and rumors are that configuration is cancelled or delayed.

 

[uzzi38]

I've got very good reason to think ARL doesn't have SMT either, take that for what it's worth.

Although admittedly, for the longest time I did just think it was a typo.

 

[Exist50]

If there is no SMT on Lion Cove maybe they need a 8+32 config or how could they increase MT over RPL-R? With IPC improvements only?

Not just IPC. A two node jump will provide a substantial clock speed improvement at iso-power. 8+16 ARL should comfortably beat Raptor Lake in MT.

 

[Exist50]

Arrow uses the same core design???

Too vague for me to tell how much he/she knows, but @adroc_thurston is certainly right that LNL is by far the more interesting of the two.

Lunar Lake isn’t planned to be on N3, not at the moment at least.

Lunar Lake is and always was on N3.

Ha, Golden Pig Upgrade @ Bilibili claimed that Intel 20A is gone missing....

As far as I'm aware, this is not true, though it's possible I'm behind the curve. I'd take that claim with quite a bit of salt, however.