Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

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Tigerick

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PantherLake.png

LNL.png

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

ModelCode-NameDateTDPNodeTilesMain TileCPULP E-CoreLLCGPUXe-cores
Core Ultra 100UMeteor LakeQ4 202315 - 57 WIntel 4 + N5 + N64tCPU2P + 8E212 MBIntel Graphics4
?Lunar LakeQ4 202417 - 30 WN3B + N62CPU + GPU & IMC4P + 4E08 MBArc8
?Panther LakeQ1 2026 ??Intel 18A + N3E2CPU + IOD + MC4P + 8E4?Arc12



Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Meteor LakeArrow Lake (20A)Arrow Lake (N3B)Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)Lunar LakePanther Lake
PlatformMobile H/U OnlyDesktop OnlyDesktop & Mobile H&HXDesktop OnlyMobile U OnlyMobile H
Process NodeIntel 4Intel 20ATSMC N3BTSMC N3BTSMC N3BIntel 18A
DateQ4 2023Q1 2025 ?Desktop-Q4-2024
H&HX-Q1-2025
Q4 2025 ?Q4 2024Q1 2026 ?
Full Die6P + 8P6P + 8E ?8P + 16E8P + 32E4P + 4E4P + 8E
LLC24 MB24 MB ?36 MB ??8 MB?
tCPU66.48
tGPU44.45
SoC96.77
IOE44.45
Total252.15



Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake

INTEL-CORE-100-ULTRA-METEOR-LAKE-OFFCIAL-SLIDE-2.jpg

As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

Clockspeed.png
 
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Kepler_L2

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Sep 6, 2020
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The people that believe it will be higher are taking it from a Turin Specint benchmark showing a 30% performance gain (as you know). I don’t think that means that Zen 5 client has a 30% IPC improvement. Milan showed a 30% improvement in Specint too and Zen 3 client launched with a 19% IPC gain.

I’ve got no data on Zen 5 client so I can’t say anything definitively but I don’t think it’s getting a 30% ST bump in a single generation. Even if it did, it’ll have 30-40% less memory bandwidth than ARL-S that it’ll be held back in certain workloads anyway.
If you're referring to Jim Keller's presentation that's not where Zen5 numbers come from.
 
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adroc_thurston

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Jul 2, 2023
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The people that believe it will be higher are taking it from a Turin Specint benchmark showing a 30% performance gain (as you know). I don’t think that means that Zen 5 client has a 30% IPC improvement. Milan showed a 30% improvement in Specint too and Zen 3 client launched with a 19% IPC gain.
I'm sorry to spoil your party but Zen5 is very much a fat IPC bump with a few bins of speed loss.
It is what it is; the thing's sampled far and wide even in the Strix form by now.
but I don’t think it’s getting a 30% ST bump in a single generation
Literally every single numbered AMD bump was at least 30% 1t. lol.
 

H433x0n

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Mar 15, 2023
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I'm sorry to spoil your party but Zen5 is very much a fat IPC bump with a few bins of speed loss.
It is what it is; the thing's sampled far and wide even in the Strix form by now.
I consider 20% IPC gain a fat bump. They’d need a ~25% IPC increase to break even with a 300mhz clock regression, a ~22-23% IPC increase to break even with a 200mhz clock regression.

Literally every single numbered AMD bump was at least 30% 1t. lol.
Not sure what you meant by this but I’m assuming you meant previous generations. They’ve only gotten a 30% 1T improvement in a single generation once with Zen 4 and it came with a 700mhz higher clocks, a new node and DDR5. Zen 5 isn’t working with the same conditions that gave Zen 4 that big boost. It’s got to all be done with raw IPC.
 
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adroc_thurston

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Want to post a Wall of Zen with no purpose in an Intel thread, Enjoy your infraction.
I consider 20% IPC gain a fat bump
That's normal.
Fat is twice that.
They’d need a ~25% IPC increase to break even with a 300mhz clock regression, a ~22-23% IPC increase to break even with a 200mhz clock regression.
They're not aiming to "break even".
They’ve only gotten a 30% 1T improvement in a single generation once with Zen 4
No.
Zen2 was 30% 1t, and Zen3 was 30% 1t or therein.
It's a combination of IPC and clock bumps, but in case of Zen5 there's no clock bump!
just IPC.
 

H433x0n

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Mar 15, 2023
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That's normal.
Fat is twice that.

They're not aiming to "break even".

No.
Zen2 was 30% 1t, and Zen3 was 30% 1t or therein.
It's a combination of IPC and clock bumps, but in case of Zen5 there's no clock bump!
just IPC.
So just to be clear- you’re saying that Zen 5 has a 40% IPC gain and is only losing a few hundred mhz of clocks?

I wish this forum had a !RemindMe bot for situations like these.
 

yuri69

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Jul 16, 2013
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ARL will be surely fine even vs that magical +40% IPC Zen 5. Intel firmly holds the volume of major markets and AMD slowly goes away from mobile/OEM desktop.
Zen2 was 30% 1t, and Zen3 was 30% 1t or therein.
It's a combination of IPC and clock bumps, but in case of Zen5 there's no clock bump!
just IPC.
3900X vs 2700X often barely reached 20% T1 gain unless AVX...
 

adroc_thurston

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Jul 2, 2023
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you’re saying that Zen 5 has a 40% IPC gain and is only losing a few hundred mhz of clocks?
I've only ever said 32%.
3900X vs 2700X often barely reached 20% T1 gain unless AVX...
not in specINT.
ARL will be surely fine even vs that magical +40% IPC Zen 5.
That's cope.
Intel firmly holds the volume of major markets and AMD slowly goes away from mobile/OEM desktop.
By being very-very cheap with RPLs, yes.
282 in particular.
 

H433x0n

Senior member
Mar 15, 2023
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I've only ever said 32%.
That doesn’t achieve what you’re claiming. A 32% IPC increase (which I doubt btw) coupled with a 300mhz clock regression gets Zen 5 a ST performance lead similar to what 13900K has right now. Thats best case scenario assuming it hits every bit of that 32% gain.

So 10% better ST (best case), while having worse efficiency at low power scenarios, less bandwidth and much less MT performance lower down the stack. That’s what all this hype is about?

Edit: To be clear, I don’t think it will have a 32% IPC improvement. I think Turin will hit those types of numbers in Specint 1T but Turin is getting a bunch of advantages that client won’t have (more memory bandwidth, more power budget, etc).
 
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aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
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Sep 28, 2005
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I'm sorry to spoil your party but Zen5 is very much a fat IPC bump with a few bins of speed loss.
It is what it is; the thing's sampled far and wide even in the Strix form by now.

Literally every single numbered AMD bump was at least 30% 1t. lol.

That's normal.
Fat is twice that.

They're not aiming to "break even".

No.
Zen2 was 30% 1t, and Zen3 was 30% 1t or therein.
It's a combination of IPC and clock bumps, but in case of Zen5 there's no clock bump!
just IPC.

what does it have in specint? (please no cinememe)

what

How is this a metric?
It's not power or perf or area.

And what point do these post have in this thread except to incite or flame bait?
Is Zen5 even out? Has anyone even posses a the CPU to provide valid numbers for you justifying posting about Zen5 in an INTEL thread?

Haven't i told all of you guys, we are tired of hearing about Zen 5 in an Intel thread?

Please keep talking about AMD with no point or reason in a Intel thread.
Pretty soon you won't be allowed to post in ANY intel posts if you keep ignoring us moderators.

We are done giving out freebies.

I will say this again.
You are OK to bring AMD into this discussion providing you have a valid reason like a basis of comparison but you better have a reason and the words INTEL must also be included in that post to provide validations.
But bringing Zen5 which is not even out yet, and then making claims which can not be proven yet, (even if its ends up being true), is TROLLING / INCITING, people that just want to talk about Intel.

No more Freebie's will be given to anyone who violates this.
If you want to talk about Zen5 goto the Zen5 thread, don't pollute the intel thread.


Moderator Aigo
 
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aigomorla

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This is why i asked all of you guys to stop talking about Zen5, as it always starts a wall of of ZEN, which does not belong in a Intel Thread.

I won't repeat this again.

Zen5 needs to go ->


This thread is for discussion regarding Meteor / Arrow / Lunar.... not Turin , Strix, and Granite.

Moderator Aigo
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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That it's an announcement that isn't delaying something for another year. Intel just being able to deliver something on time is hopefully a return to form for the company.

Seems like we're setting a low bar here. And they didn't even demo the product!

If the efficiency claims hold up and it delivers better battery life than Raptor lake mobile
We should have at least had a controlled demo for them to showcase that efficiency.
 

S'renne

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Oct 30, 2022
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So I suppose the NPU part of Meteor Lake isn't that significant when the AI technologies was the focus of this year's innovative event? (just trying to spark another relevant topic)
 

SiliconFly

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Mar 10, 2023
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So I suppose the NPU part of Meteor Lake isn't that significant when the AI technologies was the focus of this year's innovative event? (just trying to spark another relevant topic)
Ya. It's a bit intriguing considering the NPU takes only a smaller amount of die space.

And Intel seems to be over emphasizing it. They've even started calling MTL Laptops as AI PCs! Sounds kinda silly.
 

S'renne

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Oct 30, 2022
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Ya. It's a bit intriguing considering the NPU takes only a smaller amount of die space.

And Intel seems to be over emphasizing it. They've even started calling MTL Laptops as AI PCs! Sounds kinda silly.
I mean they are running AI tasks for all sorts of client side purposes through local hardware as opposed of cloud AI with open sourced projects..and the main topic of the event is AI focused. I do like how the chiplets works onwards from Meteor Lake.

Also, did I misremember or misunderstand something, but how does the whole SoC has 128 GB/s bandwidth across all tiles?
 

KompuKare

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Jul 28, 2009
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That was all a huge media campaign from Intel yesterday.
Time will tell whether it was all more than words, certainly in terms of process execution Intel have a lot to prove.
Perf/watt is the killer IMO. The E cores are fine but the P cores can be crazy. Guess Meteor Lake is mobile so no crazy 13900K super-clock modes.
Last times they went mobile only was all a bit... suspect... in terms of nodes etc.
That they've gone max 6 P cores is strange and potentially hard to sell.
Their packaging is pretty ambitious - hope they have all the capacity.
Guess this that leaves Nvidia as the last of the big 3 to not get innovative with packaging.
 
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SiliconFly

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Mar 10, 2023
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Also, did I misremember or misunderstand something, but how does the whole SoC has 128 GB/s bandwidth across all tiles?
MTL's NOC Scalable Fabric connects all the tiles at 128 GB/s which is perfectly fine for MTL. For example, a 4-tile AMD EPYC SoC has it's 4 compute tiles interlinked by Infinity Fabric at only 42.6 GB/s per link, bringing the 4 link aggregate to a total of 170.6 GB/s. This bandwidth is more than sufficient for EPYC.

In MTL's case, it has only one compute tile. So, I think, Intel might have decided 128 GB/s is more than enough. Intel NOC Scalable Fabric is more advanced than AMD's Infinity Fabric. The NOC Scalable Fabric can directly link multiple dies and modules seamlessly with each other using fast links and acts more like a network switch rather than independent die-to-die interconnects.

(More info: AT, wikichip & link)