Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[dullard]

WRT "huge performance improvements", Intel's performance projections state otherwise. You know, the ones that already leaked and suggest to expect a ~5% increase to ST perf and 15% increase to MT perf?

We can be a bit more precise when referring to the leak, see all three slides here: https://www.techpowerup.com/311287/...cted-6-21-faster-than-raptor-lake-s#g311287-1

Projected performance increase was as low as 3% to 6% (in single core floating point) and as high as 17% to 21% (in multi-core floating point). Typical increases were 9% to 13% (single core Geekbench) and 16% to 20% (multi-core Geekbench). Both of those Geekbench results are above your posted numbers. I wonder why your memory was lower.

Also pertinent:

• These increases are compared to a 13900K (the 13900K was at 253 W, the Arrow Lake was at 250 W).
• GPU increases were 2.1X to 2.4X the 13900K.
• These are for the initial 8+16 Arrow lake chips, rumored 40 core Arrow Lake chips are not included in that leak (which would significantly impact the multi-core scores).

 

[Glo.]

128 EUs on MTL-P GPU, 2.05 GHz clock speed and 120 GB/s bandwidth.

Arc A370M has 128 EUs, 1.55 GHz clock speed and 112 GB/s bandwidth, so in theory, MTL-P iGPU should be faster.

RIGHT?!

 

[dullard]

128 EUs on MTL-P GPU, 2.05 GHz clock speed and 120 GB/s bandwidth.

Arc A370M has 128 EUs, 1.55 GHz clock speed and 112 GB/s bandwidth, so in theory, MTL-P iGPU should be faster.

RIGHT?!

Those specs you mention are better on Meteor Lake. Also, the Meteor Lake GPU it will have access to more memory--albeit shared memory (4 GB on ARC A370M can be under requirements of programs). I'm also unclear as to the PCI connection on various Meteor Lake chips to the GPU. It might be better or at least the same (not that it matters much for lower end graphics).

But, there are rumors that the Meteor Lake GPU will not have full XeSS commands (DPAS). Those commands use neural network math to get sometimes significant framerate boosts*. Also, who knows about the driver support with all the recent layoffs. So which will win out? I don't know enough to say. Probably the higher clock speeds will let the Meteor Lake GPU slightly outperform the Arc A370M.

* Sorry for the Fudzilla link, but it was the only one I could find quickly: https://www.fudzilla.com/reviews/55568-intel-xess-gets-arc-370-up-to-78-percent-faster

 

[SiliconFly]

WRT "huge performance improvements", Intel's performance projections state otherwise. You know, the ones that already leaked and suggest to expect a ~5% increase to ST perf and 15% increase to MT perf?

Those projection leaks should be taken with a grain of salt as those slides lacks context. I don't think that's the final performance projection of ARL (an ES maybe). Still ARL has too many unknowns. And I think ARL final will have more than 5% ST & 15% MT w.r.t RPL.

But ARL is on 20A. A hyper-power-efficient node. ARL should be able to easily match RPL's performance at less than half the power. That itself is a huge milestone for ARL.

Also, ARL is supposed to be on Lion Cove. And LNC still has plenty of time to get finalized. Intel is tight-lipped about LNC as of now. We'll know more about ARL & LNC soon. And Intel has still not confirmed whether ARL uses LNC!

At this point, it's too early to speculate about ARL's performance.

 

[AMDK11]

If ArrowLake does indeed contain LionCove cores, then maybe it's because the IPC gain is large, but the timing is significantly lower?LionCove should yield a large IPC increase, unless it's not LionCove but RedwoodCove(+).I assume RedwoodCove is about 10-15% higher IPC.

 

[SiliconFly]

If ArrowLake does indeed contain LionCove cores, then maybe it's because the IPC gain is large, but the timing is significantly lower?LionCove should yield a large IPC increase, unless it's not LionCove but RedwoodCove(+).I assume RedwoodCove is about 10-15% higher IPC.

Based on rumors, it looks like ARL indeed has the 1st iteration of LNC & not RWC+. And the first iteration of LNC is not a full implementation either. Cos' further rumors suggest that ARL's LNC doesn't even have hyper-threading which Intel has skipped in favor of some new tech that might be present in the next iteration of LNC in LNL (hopefully). Again all these are unconfirmed rumors. No solid leaks or any confirmation from Intel yet. Not much is known.

A fun fact, if RWC+ exists, it'll be nothing but ADL+++

 

[A///]

Which also sounds like a rumour to be quite frank with you. If ARL is scheduled for a fall 24 release then we shall learn more around April - June of next year. It's almost criminal to waste so much time bickering back and forth over a product we know nothing about apart from some flimsy es benchmarks.

 

[S'renne]

Which also sounds like a rumour to be quite frank with you. If ARL is scheduled for a fall 24 release then we shall learn more around April - June of next year. It's almost criminal to waste so much time bickering back and forth over a product we know nothing about apart from some flimsy es benchmarks.

Really dissapointed that the out of context slides that has vague performance projections without even dates or whatever is somehow being used to think that Intel is failing or whatever...

 

[H433x0n]

Really dissapointed that the out of context slides that has vague performance projections without even dates or whatever is somehow being used to think that Intel is failing or whatever...

It’s the internet… it’s a pro-AMD echo chamber. It’s just the trendy thing at the moment. There’s a reason why r/AMD has 1.6M subs and r/Intel has 800K subs with almost zero traffic. I’m in discord servers where people actively root for Arc to fail and get irrationally angry whenever it’s brought up.

Heck, even r/Nvidia has less active users and subscribers than r/AMD.

 

[poke01]

It’s the internet… it’s a pro-AMD echo chamber. It’s just the trendy thing at the moment. There’s a reason why r/AMD has 1.6M subs and r/Intel has 800K subs with almost zero traffic. I’m in discord servers where people actively root for Arc to fail and get irrationally angry whenever it’s brought up.

Heck, even r/Nvidia has less active users and subscribers than r/AMD.

See, this is where Apple is different it's popular on internet and in the real world. ie Sales and brand recognition.

Intel new naming scheme will usher them into irrelevance sooner. They don't exist in mainstream product anywhere( only PC gaming and business laptops).

At least Nvidia has Nintendo and AMD has MS and Sony and Apple is Apple. Intel has a worse rep than TSMC. Next 5 years are make or break for Intel.

 

[Henry swagger]

It’s the internet… it’s a pro-AMD echo chamber. It’s just the trendy thing at the moment. There’s a reason why r/AMD has 1.6M subs and r/Intel has 800K subs with almost zero traffic. I’m in discord servers where people actively root for Arc to fail and get irrationally angry whenever it’s brought up.

Heck, even r/Nvidia has less active users and subscribers than r/AMD.

What secret discord server is that ? .. yeah amd is big on the internet is very weird lol

 

[A///]

It’s the internet… it’s a pro-AMD echo chamber. It’s just the trendy thing at the moment. There’s a reason why r/AMD has 1.6M subs and r/Intel has 800K subs with almost zero traffic. I’m in discord servers where people actively root for Arc to fail and get irrationally angry whenever it’s brought up.

Heck, even r/Nvidia has less active users and subscribers than r/AMD.

You two would have a leg to stand on if I was remotely pro -amd. I haven't had an AMD system in close to 25 years. No where have I stated those slides were concrete data 13+ months out.

 

[uzzi38]

We can be a bit more precise when referring to the leak, see all three slides here: https://www.techpowerup.com/311287/...cted-6-21-faster-than-raptor-lake-s#g311287-1

Projected performance increase was as low as 3% to 6% (in single core floating point) and as high as 17% to 21% (in multi-core floating point). Typical increases were 9% to 13% (single core Geekbench) and 16% to 20% (multi-core Geekbench). Both of those Geekbench results are above your posted numbers. I wonder why your memory was lower.

Also pertinent:

• These increases are compared to a 13900K (the 13900K was at 253 W, the Arrow Lake was at 250 W).
• GPU increases were 2.1X to 2.4X the 13900K.
• These are for the initial 8+16 Arrow lake chips, rumored 40 core Arrow Lake chips are not included in that leak (which would significantly impact the multi-core scores).

Interesting how you singled out Geekbench ST and MT over Spec ST and MT, seeing as the former was designed to mock the results of the latter. But in any case, to answer why my memory was lower, it's because I've seen other slides too with the numbers I stated.

Those projection leaks should be taken with a grain of salt as those slides lacks context. I don't think that's the final performance projection of ARL (an ES maybe). Still ARL has too many unknowns. And I think ARL final will have more than 5% ST & 15% MT w.r.t RPL.

But ARL is on 20A. A hyper-power-efficient node. ARL should be able to easily match RPL's performance at less than half the power. That itself is a huge milestone for ARL.

Also, ARL is supposed to be on Lion Cove. And LNC still has plenty of time to get finalized. Intel is tight-lipped about LNC as of now. We'll know more about ARL & LNC soon. And Intel has still not confirmed whether ARL uses LNC!

At this point, it's too early to speculate about ARL's performance.

No, they have plenty of context already. It literally says "performance projections" at the top, so these are evidently just that. You don't project what your ES1s should be capable of in performance, you project what the final deal should look like,

And no, the IP will already have been locked in for a while now. We're much too late for significant changes any more.

Power efficiency will be very good on ARL going off of Intel's projections: a very decent step up from RPL if nothing else.

 

[FangBLade]

It’s the internet… it’s a pro-AMD echo chamber. It’s just the trendy thing at the moment. There’s a reason why r/AMD has 1.6M subs and r/Intel has 800K subs with almost zero traffic. I’m in discord servers where people actively root for Arc to fail and get irrationally angry whenever it’s brought up.

Heck, even r/Nvidia has less active users and subscribers than r/AMD.

It depends on how you look at it; it's a matter of perspective, 100 people, 100... seeing who liked your comment, someone might think that you are a big supporter of Intel (I can't use the other word). Some people would say that the reason Intel's topics have so fewer subscribers and activity is because they have been stagnant, haven't done anything impressive for a long time. Not to mention how much they've recycled the Skylake architecture, and now they are doing the same with the current architecture, and overall, the advancements have been small. That's why there's less interest. I deeply hope that with MTL, they will establish new foundations, and we will forget about this current Intel.

 

[S'renne]

It depends on how you look at it; it's a matter of perspective, 100 people, 100... seeing who liked your comment, someone might think that you are a big supporter of Intel (I can't use the other word). Some people would say that the reason Intel's topics have so fewer subscribers and activity is because they have been stagnant, haven't done anything impressive for a long time. Not to mention how much they've recycled the Skylake architecture, and now they are doing the same with the current architecture, and overall, the advancements have been small. That's why there's less interest. I deeply hope that with MTL, they will establish new foundations, and we will forget about this current Intel.

Well they are with the new name numbering scheme I think it's all new from the ground up

 

[dullard]

Interesting how you singled out Geekbench ST and MT over Spec ST and MT, seeing as the former was designed to mock the results of the latter. But in any case, to answer why my memory was lower, it's because I've seen other slides too with the numbers I stated.

Wow, did you even read my post? Let me point out the Spec ST and Spec MT numbers that you claim I didn't post (I'll help by adding red text).

Projected performance increase was as low as 3% to 6% (in single core floating point for uzzi38 this is SPEC ST) and as high as 17% to 21% (in multi-core floating point for uzzi38 this is SPEC MT).

Could you please show us the other slides you mention?

 

[trivik12]

Geekbench is coming in for Meteor lake as well.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699367498137715102

[GB6 CPU] Unknown CPUCPU: Intel Core Ultra 7 155H (16C 22T)Min/Max/Avg: 4105/4790/4666 MHzCPUID: A06A4 (GenuineIntel)Single: 2346Multi: 12853

 

[Saylick]

Geekbench is coming in for Meteor lake as well.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1699367498137715102

Not bad, matches Phoenix Point (7840U) in ST but has +50% MT.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I haven't had an AMD system in close to 25 years.

You must fix that. You buy AMD laptop NOW!

 

[A///]

You must fix that. You buy AMD laptop NOW!

Given the lack of choices I'd rather pick up a mtl laptop.

 

[SiliconFly]

You must fix that. You buy AMD laptop NOW!

It's a little too soon to write-off MTL. MTL final may perform slightly better than 13th gen mobile counterparts (even after factoring in the slight clock regression). And its extremely power efficient compared to previous gen. Meaning 14th gen laptops will be far more superior in power efficiency when compared to 13th gen laptops.

MTL's best competitor would be AMD's Strix Point APUs coming out next year. And they sound real good too. Looks like it'll be a lot faster but not as efficient as MTL.

Both MTL & Strix Point are excellent choices. Its just a matter of personal preference. One has more efficiency & the other has more performance. Can't go wrong with either.

 

[SiliconFly]

Given the lack of choices I'd rather pick up a mtl laptop.

I actually have a 13th gen HX series laptop with a RTX gpu. A monster. But like everything Intel, I too have a small portable nuclear reactor in my basement to power the machine due to it's outstanding battery life. MTL might change that (hopefully). But Intel being Intel, I would rather not believe the rumors until I see it with my own eyes. MTL sounds good as of now. Hope they deliver. 11 more days to go...

 

[controlflow]

You must fix that. You buy AMD laptop NOW!

Why would you buy an AMD laptop over an MTL one? MTL is very likely to be superior and available in a lot more laptops that actually exist and with decent volume.

 

[SiliconFly]

Why would you buy an AMD laptop over an MTL one? MTL is very likely to be superior and available in a lot more laptops that actually exist and with decent volume.

I think AMD Strix Point laptops may actually be better than MTL laptops (at least in performance).

Intel laptops are not the only "good" laptops anymore!

 

[igor_kavinski]

Why would you buy an AMD laptop over an MTL one?

A future vulnerability may reduce the MTL laptop's performance. In their quest for minimum time to market, I doubt that creating a 100% secure CPU is their priority with MTL.