Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.





Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[mikk]

I think AMD Strix Point laptops may actually be better than MTL laptops (at least in performance).

Intel laptops are not the only "good" laptops anymore!

Strix Point isn't coming anytime soon, it's not a MTL competitor for a long time. MTL competes with Phoenix which is still ramping slowly up. Once Strix Point comes out (real availability and not the usual 6 months announcement in advance) Intel should have MTL refresh or ARL ready soon after.

 

[SiliconFly]

A future vulnerability may reduce the MTL laptop's performance. In their quest for minimum time to market, I doubt that creating a 100% secure CPU is their priority with MTL.

Not really. AMD cpus typically have more bugs than Intel cpus.

AMD errata is usually hysterical when compared to Intel's. One of the reasons why office laptops are predominantly Intel even now.

 

[Ajay]

Not really. AMD cpus typically have more bugs than Intel cpus.

AMD errata is usually hysterical when compared to Intel's. One of the reasons why office laptops are predominantly Intel even now.

Errata is very different from security vulnerabilities. And, that's not the reason for low AMD laptop sales.

 

[SiliconFly]

Strix Point isn't coming anytime soon, it's not a MTL competitor for a long time. MTL competes with Phoenix which is still ramping slowly up. Once Strix Point comes out (real availability and not the usual 6 months announcement in advance) Intel should have MTL refresh or ARL ready soon after.

Oh ok. MLID keeps saying Strix Point volume will follow MTL volume within 3 to 4 months. Not that I believe that silly guy as he's a ardent AMD fanboy. But if we look at AMD's typical timelines, it sounds a bit plausible. In which case, it'll compete first with MTL and later with ARL. And looking at it's specs, it sure is a good competitor!

 

[SiliconFly]

Errata is very different from security vulnerabilities. And, that's not the reason for low AMD laptop sales.

Even now AMD cpus have more serious security bugs than Intel's. And both are releasing lots of microcode updates than they should. In the past, AMD used to have way too many when compare to Intel. Now they're on-par. Doesn't make them any better.

But then again, these aren't much of an issue when it comes to client cpus (when compared to servers). Thats why no one cares. By the time any of these security vulnerabilities are even exploited, the operating system is usually compromised beyond repair. Remember, a malware injection (typically ring 0) should've had happened already before these vulnerabilities are even exploited.

 

[FangBLade]

I think AMD Strix Point laptops may actually be better than MTL laptops (at least in performance).

Intel laptops are not the only "good" laptops anymore!

Not only that, but if you look at Reddit and forums, everyone wants the Phoenix laptop the most, with excellent CPU efficiency and performance alongside the most powerful integrated graphics. Intel's offering comes down to the old Xe architecture they've been pushing for, what, 3 generations now? That immediately put me off. I'm in the process of buying a new laptop, and I'm waiting for either Phoenix or MTL. AMD's offering is improving from month to month, and by the end of the year, they should all offer Phoenix versions, while MTL is only expected to start selling towards the end of the year, and everyone should have it in their lineup next year, but that's a bit too long to wait for me.

 

[H433x0n]

Not really. AMD cpus typically have more bugs than Intel cpus.

AMD errata is usually hysterical when compared to Intel's. One of the reasons why office laptops are predominantly Intel even now.

I ended up having to sell my 7950X system after 3 weeks because of bugs.

The chipset, DDR5 PHY & PCIe are all outsourced to companies such as Asmedia and Synopsis. I think that could be a potential factor as to why.

 

[AMDK11]

Based on rumors, it looks like ARL indeed has the 1st iteration of LNC & not RWC+. And the first iteration of LNC is not a full implementation either. Cos' further rumors suggest that ARL's LNC doesn't even have hyper-threading which Intel has skipped in favor of some new tech that might be present in the next iteration of LNC in LNL (hopefully). Again all these are unconfirmed rumors. No solid leaks or any confirmation from Intel yet. Not much is known.

A fun fact, if RWC+ exists, it'll be nothing but ADL+++

"In terms of microarchitecture, Redwood Cove is getting the same 64KB I-cache as we saw on Crestmont, which unlike the E-cores, is 2x the capacity of its predecessor. It’s rare for Intel to touch I-cache capacity (due to balancing hit rates with latency), so this is a notable change and it will be interesting to see the ramifications once Intel talks more about architecture.


But most notably here, Intel has managed to further shave down the latency of floating-point multiplication, bringing it from 4/5 cycles down to just 3 cycles. Fundamental instruction latency improvements like these are rare, so they’re always welcome to see.


Otherwise, the remaining highlights of the Redwood Cove microarchitecture are branch prediction and prefetching, which are typical optimization targets for Intel. Anything they can do to improve branch prediction (and reduce the cost of rare misses) tends to pay relatively big dividends in terms of performance.


More applicable to the Xeon family in particular, the AMX matrix engine for Redwood Cove is gaining FP16 support. FP16 isn’t as quite as heavily used as the already-supported BF16 and INT8, but it’s an improvement to AMX’s flexibility overall."
If Redwood Cove is not the new x86 core, but only GoldenCove+, then you might as well say that
GoldenCove is only P6++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In Redwood Cove, the changes are not as big as Golden Cove, but they are bigger than Broadwell vs. Haswell. RedwoodCove is something like a transition from Zen2 to Zen3, i.e. optimization, removal of GoldenCove bottlenecks and expansion. More details at the MeteorLake presentation.

RedwoodCove is the new x86 core

 

[Geddagod]

Why would you buy an AMD laptop over an MTL one? MTL is very likely to be superior and available in a lot more laptops that actually exist and with decent volume.

Got a tuition refund from my college so I'm actually looking forward to buying a new thin and light lol (rather than carrying my relatively large asus M16 everywhere)
I don't think MTL is going to be superior vs Phoenix, at least not by any large amount, so depending on the price/perf and other laptop specs, there should still be plenty of reason to go for AMD.
Also I have no faith in plenty of MTL stock this year lol

 

[Geddagod]

In Redwood Cove, the changes are not as big as Golden Cove, but they are bigger than Broadwell vs. Haswell. RedwoodCove is something like a transition from Zen2 to Zen3, i.e. optimization, removal of GoldenCove bottlenecks and expansion.

Ok what? Zen 3 vs Zen 2 was a massive increase in IPC, RWC should be nowhere near as close.

 

[A///]

I actually have a 13th gen HX series laptop with a RTX gpu. A monster. But like everything Intel, I too have a small portable nuclear reactor in my basement to power the machine due to it's outstanding battery life. MTL might change that (hopefully). But Intel being Intel, I would rather not believe the rumors until I see it with my own eyes. MTL sounds good as of now. Hope they deliver. 11 more days to go...

Agree. I've held off from buying amd laptops because the choices are limited but also keen on getting an m3 mbp. if mtl is as good as it is I'll get one.

 

[Geddagod]

Agree. I've held off from buying amd laptops because the choices are limited

And when they do exist, some OEMs won't give "higher end" specs (screens, GPUs, etc etc) with AMD CPUs.

 

[AMDK11]

Ok what? Zen 3 vs Zen 2 was a massive increase in IPC, RWC should be nowhere near as close.

And what was Zen3 compared to Zen2? Zen3 didn't bring as much expansion as Zen5 with 6-way x86. Zen3 is a redesign/optimization and extension, which is pretty much what RedwoodCove is, which you'll see soon as Intel reveals more details. I estimate the IPC increase to be around 15%. If I'm wrong, let me go to hell.

 

[H433x0n]

And what was Zen3 compared to Zen2? Zen3 didn't bring as much expansion as Zen5 with 6-way x86. Zen3 is a redesign/optimization and extension, which is pretty much what RedwoodCove is, which you'll see soon as Intel reveals more details. I estimate the IPC increase to be around 15%. If I'm wrong, let me go to hell.

You’re going to hell.

Got a tuition refund from my college so I'm actually looking forward to buying a new thin and light lol (rather than carrying my relatively large asus M16 everywhere)
I don't think MTL is going to be superior vs Phoenix, at least not by any large amount, so depending on the price/perf and other laptop specs, there should still be plenty of reason to go for AMD.
Also I have no faith in plenty of MTL stock this year lol

MTL should beat Phoenix in almost every metric, at least for the Core 9 models (incl battery life & efficiency).

 

[A///]

And when they do exist, some OEMs won't give "higher end" specs (screens, GPUs, etc etc) with AMD CPUs.

I don't believe it's anything nefarious but the lack of consumer knowledge of where AMD is today. It's easy to say it's fine today but we're all enthusiasts and the sites we consume cater to people like us. Your next door neighbour billy bob who'se married to his first cousin might think AMD is still bad ever since they lost their lead to core 2 duo. the odms do not want to sit around with stock on their hands.

 

[DrMrLordX]

A future vulnerability may reduce the MTL laptop's performance. In their quest for minimum time to market, I doubt that creating a 100% secure CPU is their priority with MTL.

Ehhh that's questionable. That latest Intel mobile CPUs to feature vulnerabilities are Tiger Lake, and that particular vulnerability isn't relevant to single-user machines anyway.

That aside, you can't buy Meteor Lake yet, so if you need a laptop today, it's Phoenix if you can find one unless you want Raptor Lake in your laptop (bleh). I've never been a huge fan of the poor availability of retail AMD laptops, but from a purely-technical standpoint Phoenix is still excellent. In fact Phoenix may be a solid ST competitor to Meteor Lake which is frankly a bit embarrassing for Intel. That may remain true for any workload out to about 8t. Hopefully Meteor Lake will at least win out on battery life.

 

[SiliconFly]

"In terms of microarchitecture, Redwood Cove is getting the same 64KB I-cache as we saw on Crestmont, which unlike the E-cores, is 2x the capacity of its predecessor. It’s rare for Intel to touch I-cache capacity (due to balancing hit rates with latency), so this is a notable change and it will be interesting to see the ramifications once Intel talks more about architecture.


But most notably here, Intel has managed to further shave down the latency of floating-point multiplication, bringing it from 4/5 cycles down to just 3 cycles. Fundamental instruction latency improvements like these are rare, so they’re always welcome to see.


Otherwise, the remaining highlights of the Redwood Cove microarchitecture are branch prediction and prefetching, which are typical optimization targets for Intel. Anything they can do to improve branch prediction (and reduce the cost of rare misses) tends to pay relatively big dividends in terms of performance.


More applicable to the Xeon family in particular, the AMX matrix engine for Redwood Cove is gaining FP16 support. FP16 isn’t as quite as heavily used as the already-supported BF16 and INT8, but it’s an improvement to AMX’s flexibility overall."
If Redwood Cove is not the new x86 core, but only GoldenCove+, then you might as well say that
GoldenCove is only P6++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In Redwood Cove, the changes are not as big as Golden Cove, but they are bigger than Broadwell vs. Haswell. RedwoodCove is something like a transition from Zen2 to Zen3, i.e. optimization, removal of GoldenCove bottlenecks and expansion. More details at the MeteorLake presentation.

RedwoodCove is the new x86 core

Wish those RWC improvements bring as much performance to the table as I think it would. But like I said, Intel being Intel, I would rather see it before believing it.

 

[SiliconFly]

I ended up having to sell my 7950X system after 3 weeks because of bugs.

The chipset, DDR5 PHY & PCIe are all outsourced to companies such as Asmedia and Synopsis. I think that could be a potential factor as to why.

Things are getting better at AMD as we speak.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Your next door neighbour billy bob who'se married to his first cousin

Don't blame Bob if his cousin's pipin' hot!

 

[SiliconFly]

Ok what? Zen 3 vs Zen 2 was a massive increase in IPC, RWC should be nowhere near as close.

Yes

 

[SiliconFly]

And what was Zen3 compared to Zen2? Zen3 didn't bring as much expansion as Zen5 with 6-way x86. Zen3 is a redesign/optimization and extension, which is pretty much what RedwoodCove is, which you'll see soon as Intel reveals more details. I estimate the IPC increase to be around 15%. If I'm wrong, let me go to hell.

You have too much faith in MTL. I strongly believe that MTL final won't bring that much performance improvements over previous gen, just excellent power efficiency. Thats why the massive "Ultra" rebranding effort i think. On the contrary, Zen2 to Zen3 was a good IPC uplift.

 

[SiliconFly]

I don't believe it's anything nefarious but the lack of consumer knowledge of where AMD is today. It's easy to say it's fine today but we're all enthusiasts and the sites we consume cater to people like us. Your next door neighbour billy bob who'se married to his first cousin might think AMD is still bad ever since they lost their lead to core 2 duo. the odms do not want to sit around with stock on their hands.

Recently, most of the "high-end" laptops are actually powered by AMD cpus. It's a tectonic shift considering Intel dominated this space for more than a decade.

 

[SiliconFly]

Not only that, but if you look at Reddit and forums, everyone wants the Phoenix laptop the most, with excellent CPU efficiency and performance alongside the most powerful integrated graphics. Intel's offering comes down to the old Xe architecture they've been pushing for, what, 3 generations now? That immediately put me off. I'm in the process of buying a new laptop, and I'm waiting for either Phoenix or MTL. AMD's offering is improving from month to month, and by the end of the year, they should all offer Phoenix versions, while MTL is only expected to start selling towards the end of the year, and everyone should have it in their lineup next year, but that's a bit too long to wait for me.

When it's MTL vs Phoenix, MTL I think might shine in most areas and will be a better choice I feel. GPU is always an issue. But we shouldn't be buying MTL laptops for it's GPU in the first place. A dGPU is always a better choice for gaming, whether it's AMD or Intel. The tGPU is mostly for some average use cases.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The tGPU is mostly for some average use cases.

If Intel debuts their raytracing acceleration algorithm with the MTL tGPU, it could be a defining moment for them. Suddenly, people enjoying raytracing at minimum 30fps on their thin and light laptops! Nvidia is gonna get kneecapped, to speak nothing of AMD.

 

[FangBLade]

When it's MTL vs Phoenix, MTL I think might shine in most areas and will be a better choice I feel. GPU is always an issue. But we shouldn't be buying MTL laptops for it's GPU in the first place. A dGPU is always a better choice for gaming, whether it's AMD or Intel. The tGPU is mostly for some average use cases.

I'm looking for something with integrated graphics only, weighing up to 1.8kg, and from specialized stores with Linux laptops like Tuxedo, Schenker, System 76, etc. Phoenix is currently the best solution, and MTL with Arc drivers is in intensive development, and it will take some more time until they refine everything. Besides, I can't wait that long until those stores produce an MTL laptop version, which will be at the earliest in the first quarter of next year.