No Devil's Canyon for me. If I were looking to upgrade using a desktop CPU, I'd wait till Skylake (and whatever chipset it will have). Not interested in Haswell and Skylake is the next tock (at 14nm no less!).
The Intel Tuning Performance Plan was created directly from a project involving enthusiasts on forums, providing feedback to Intel representatives on those forums, so that Intel could better provide a product that was more aligned with needs and careabouts of those so-called "forum enthusiasts".
Intel very much went out of their way to accomplish that, and did so for a specific reason. I happened to have been intimately involved and can speak to it from first-hand experience, not just opinion talking here.
The mere fact Intel's marketing slides even mention improving the TIM as a highlighted benefit is a nod of recognition to the forum enthusiast and community of delidders.
What is silly is to waste a bunch of time arguing about it. How much more proof does one need? And if one needs an overwhelming abundance of proof for something that certainly does not appear to be an exceptional claim, why would anyone find it worth their while to dive head-on into that kind of opinion vs. opinion argument?
NTMBK
Lifer
- Nov 14, 2011
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Intel will allocate effort to the enthusiasts proportional to the market share- i.e. a few specially binned SKUs and a little updated packaging effort, but not designing an entire new chip catering to them. We will continue to get chips which were primarily designed for either servers (E series) or laptops (mainstream series), with a few tweaks to suit our needs.
We're a market that exists, so Intel obviously isn't going to ignore us. But we're fairly low on their list of priorities, far below servers, laptops and tablets.
We're a market that exists, so Intel obviously isn't going to ignore us. But we're fairly low on their list of priorities, far below servers, laptops and tablets.
AtenRa
Lifer
- Feb 2, 2009
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That may change the next few years. We already see that ASP quarter to quarter is going up when sales volume going down.
VirtualLarry
No Lifer
- Aug 25, 2001
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Very interesting. In the US it is the opposite. Mail-order pre-built PCs (Dell, HP, etc.) drove most all of the smaller Mom & Pop PC part vendor / builder shops out of business.
Do you think it will be as simple as "proportional to market share"? Or do you think it might be a factor of "marketing strategy" mixed in?
I'm sure your post is a simplified version of a more complex personal position and analysis you hold of the situation, and I'm curious about your deeper level assessment therein.
Personally, I suspect Intel has strategic designs on the enthusiast community given its continued support of a product class that involves socket 2011 and the extreme CPUs.
If Intel was only willing to invest in the enthusiast to the extent to which the enthusiast is willing to invest in Intel then we'd have never seen the bifurcation created which presently exists between the "K" lines on pedestrian platforms versus the xtreme products made from server SKUs. (just my unqualified opinion, but I'm curious to read more of your view on the same)
Newegg has become one of the largest online retailers over the past few years by selling to enthusiasts. Intel is not going to ignore that. There are still hundreds of thousands of small PC retailers in the U.S. alone that build their own computers from parts. There are way more than that in a country like China. I think the market is larger than most people realize.
Power consumption is important for two major reasons: laptop battery life and corporate enterprise savings. Dell, HP, etc. are selling many fewer machines these days, but it's still a huge market. That's where Intel makes most of their money, and thus the focus on power.
However, the enthusiast market is growing and Intel will continue to cater to that market as long as there's a significant amount of money to be made.
Power consumption is important for two major reasons: laptop battery life and corporate enterprise savings. Dell, HP, etc. are selling many fewer machines these days, but it's still a huge market. That's where Intel makes most of their money, and thus the focus on power.
However, the enthusiast market is growing and Intel will continue to cater to that market as long as there's a significant amount of money to be made.
I'm not singling your post out in particular, but I'm confused as to how this has propagated in this thread.
So far, it seems we have jumped the shark and are trying to cram 10 pounds of ideas into a 5 pound bag.
After a new mfg node, process, architecture has been decided upon; the different market segments will get their appropriate products.
An overclocking / enthusiast chip will never seed a product design choice, rather, it will be a by product of the best features they have to offer to the O/C / enthusiast customer.
Devil's Canyon is an iteration of something that started with the K series (i5 655k, i7 875K) and writ large in many peoples memories from the Sandy Bridge release (i5 2500K, i7 2600K, i7 2700K).
To these people, the Ivy Bridge K and Haswell K series release was meh, no two ways about it. (if not meh, my sig would have a 4770K in it...)
3.5 years later I feel we are getting more of a successor to the Sandy Bridge K series than the past two releases.
Why? Because Intel has figured out how to get better results on this new process that the enthusiast market / K series customer wants.
To look at us enthusiasts as a small portion of their overall business and not as important as server, mobile or OEM sales is flawed.
To a business, a customer is a customer, and as long as they make products we *really* want to buy, we will buy them.
The K series is an odd duck when looking at the Intel portfolio, but it provides an intangible asset (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangible_asset) to them in enthusiast chatter on forums (helping sell the rest of gaming computer parts) and enthusiasts *do* have an impact in helping friends and family make purchases.
The mere fact that the K series exists, means enthusiasts ARE a priority to Intel.
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For a person building a gaming PC while not breaking the bank to play latest games what CPU would you get then?
Lol, I have been here long enough to answer: How much do you want / have to spend???
Personally, if the gamer is buying new parts and being new to PC Gaming?
An FX-6300 or FX-6350 with a slightly over powered GPU.
After that, a Craigslist i5 K cpu / board or partial system and upgrade what is needed.
New Intel? i5 3570K or i5 4570K, but qualify that O/C is hit or miss, if they would want to try it.
I did not consider Intel for the longest time; until I had a job and disposable income.
And I used to keep stuff longer until I found a Micro Center an hour away...
cytg111
Lifer
- Mar 17, 2008
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Im quite confident in the "No free lunch" concept, so there is obviously more to it than that.
If anything i think we can deduce or reverse why an enthusiasm line exists at all. I can only come to the conlusion that "our" word and oppinion at large means something, it is PR and branding. Every single person with a computer "knows a guy", that guy knows another guy and that may just be one of us. If we like a product or brand it sorta dribbles down from there to the common guy. It is a pyramid scheme dude.
If you're gaming, I can't rationally tell someone to save $100 to get AMD when the Intel build will have superior performance, superior longevity (You'll be able to hold onto the Intel system and have it stay high performing FAR longer than the AMD system you purchase). Etc.
Just look at the sandybridge platform as it regularly tops charts on CPU roundups. Right behind Haswell/Ivybridge. Then after that it's the FX line at the bottom usually (except for the select games that are optimized for AMD's processors which I'm sure someone will bring up).
I'd pick up a new DC chip if the reviews are good, or pick up Haswell and enjoy owning your PC for 4-5 years without worrying about upgrading the CPU. With AMD, good luck lasting 3 years longer on the FX line.
I couldn't in good conscience recommend a dead product line that regularly under performed, and will continue to do so.
I could see the case for a few of their CPUs. Admittedly, I think AMD has a few good budget offerings. But most of them, I would agree. A great majority of them are near impossible to recommend, especially once you get past the 110-115$ price range. Especially the higher priced FX chips or the 7850k. There's simply no reason to buy a 7850k when a Pentium or i3 with mobo + dGPU is cheaper and offers superior performance, same story against the FX 8350. Making the case for the upper AMD FX CPU is hard to make because the fact of the matter is, while AMD fans will whine about it, IPC matters. Fact of the matter is the i3 beats the upper echelon AMD FX 8350 in many games, so it's definitely not a clear winner in price performance. The budget argument is stupid. You can get a comparable intel option for a comparable price, or the much better option within 20-30 bucks, generally speaking. That isn't superior price/performance for AMD. Now AMD certainly has a few good sub 110$ budget CPUs, but it's not like intel has no answer in the lower brackets. It isn't like intel doesn't have comparable price/performance CPUs. They assuredly do.
Even in the lower price brackets, intel is extremely competetive; the G3220 with an H81 motherboard could be had for a hundred bucks a couple of weeks back. That's even cheaper than the 760k + motherboard was, or comparable. And the G3220 with a dGPU offers better gaming performance (PCPer did a comparison between these two) while being cheaper.
So I guess I see the argument from both ends. Does AMD have some good budget CPUs? Sure. Are they CLEAR budget winners. Absolutely not. Intel has great price performance CPUs as well. So anyone suggesting that AMD is a clear winner in the lower budget price brackets, that really is not the case at all. In fact, i'd say the G3220 + H81 mobo which was on promo for 110$ for weeks is one of the best deals going in that price bracket. In the upper end of the AMD stack, the FX8350 isn't really worth it. The 7850k is way too expensive. Now what i'd like to see is the 7850k lower in price somewhat, and for the 7600 Kaveri to actually be released. Now if the 7600 Kaveri were released at around the 110-115$ price point? I think that would be a great budget CPU. So hopefully that 7600 APU is released sometime soon. But the 7850k at 190$ really isn't a great budget offering IMO.
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Anyway. Not sure how this strayed towards price/performance. We're talking reasonable enthusiast level CPUs, right? 
Not the cheap sub 100$ stuff.
As far as the Devil's Canyon goes, I think it could be a great CPU. I'll keep an eye on it when reviews hit. OC temps were never the main issue with Haswell IMO. The voltage to overclocked clockspeeds variance was far bigger issue, and it wasn't quite as pronounced with Ivy or SB. While Haswell is still he best mainstream enthusiast CPU despite that, I am definitely interesting in seeing if DC lives up to the better overclocking claims. We'll see I guess. Either way if they're doing solder this time around it will definitely have better than Haswell over-volted temps regardless.
Not the cheap sub 100$ stuff. As far as the Devil's Canyon goes, I think it could be a great CPU. I'll keep an eye on it when reviews hit. OC temps were never the main issue with Haswell IMO. The voltage to overclocked clockspeeds variance was far bigger issue, and it wasn't quite as pronounced with Ivy or SB. While Haswell is still he best mainstream enthusiast CPU despite that, I am definitely interesting in seeing if DC lives up to the better overclocking claims. We'll see I guess. Either way if they're doing solder this time around it will definitely have better than Haswell over-volted temps regardless.
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But to answer OPs questions: since my first delid attempt of my i5-3570K miserably failed and the second one left me with a CPU devoid of the PCIe Gen 3 16x slot and I want a better motherboard anyway, I'm going to get Devil Canyon.
Because the enthusiast line represents a price premium over standard Desktop parts and leftover Server parts, so they get more profit with no added R&D cost (It must be a single bit that get flipped at manufacture time to grant you the Unlocked Multiplier of the K Series). That's the reason why the "enthusiast" line is at the high end spectrum of the mainstream platform, they earn more per die.
Also, I know that I have stated this several times, but I'l go again: I hate the word "enthusiast" from the time it was adopted by manufacturers as a marketing buzzword and degraded to a mere gamer-overclocker consumist and not a all-around power user, which I think should find prosumer parts more lovable. From the time I embraced fully virtualized platforms as the power user heaven, I see the lack of VT-d on K Series parts as a proof that Intel sees enthusiast as a blindfold cash cow who only knows about overclocking and MHzs, not true power users.
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Stahp all this.
Someone asked for my *personal opinion* and I gave it.
You know what? It all comes down to budget and what they want to play.
There are many other threads to jump in about this particular topic.
Thanks for follow up. Yes interesting.
In my country (Poland) many mom & PoP PC vendor / builder shops also went of of business (I would say 50-70% ceased to exist comparing boom in 90s / early 00 vs currently), but this was mostly due to competition between them. Some of small PC stores evolved into:
1. Network of builder stores (I think somewhat similar to what Microcenter is in US)
2. Big recognizeable store in one of main city that also does have made itself as a country wide recognizeable PC internet store (think big Physical store in one -two cities + internet store somewhat like small Tigerdirect or small newegg )
3. mobile, laptops and purely internet stores
Pre-Build big vendor branded PCs - Dell, HP, NTT (polish brand) and few other - have very limited success outside of companies or some municipal and goverment offices.
It was mainly because they were not price competetive vs. building your own PC + pre-build PCs often had some custom elements that was not really good quality and / or not uppgradeable + Most families had either a member or friend or someone to help with choosing or building a PC.
They sell some to private persons I am sure(afrer all they offer desktops on their webpage stores), but that's a miniority of the market (don't know anyone who has branded desktop PC at home + I don't know any store anymore who has them on display, and I know only a few ones that even allow you to order one through them). Althrough it seems they want to take some of private people market back lately with All-In-One or small form factor desktops.
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