Intel "Devil's Canyon" on June 2nd - Any Takers?

[witeken]

No this isn't like that at all.

This is like GM saying "I don't give a crap about Corvette Enthusiasts when there are tons of CASUAL Corvette buyers out there." Tons of people buy Corvette's. This would be like GM saying they don't give a crap about a small subset of Corvette buyers who are hyper critical about things.

Forum users are a SMALL subset of enthusiast processors sold. Intel isn't worried about making sure these types of enthusiasts are happy because these types of enthusiasts are hard to please in the first place, and these types of enthusiasts will CONTINUE to purchase Intel products no matter how critical they are of them because it's the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE.

And sorry, but an unhappy enthusiast on a forum isn't going to say much. Even if MANY review sites said "Haswell Desktop Meh." How many people STILL WENT OUT AND BOUGHT IT? You can meh all you want about Haswell, and Devil's Canyon if it turns out to be nothing special. The truth is, you only have one option if you want the best processor and it's intel. If intel did a 20% IPC increase next year, there would no doubt still be enthusiasts on forums saying "I want more." Intel knows that hyper enthusiasts on forums will never be satisfied and will always want more. Catering your products to that extremely small subset of people is the most insane thing you can do as a company. Intel's in the market of being a highly relevant multibillion dollar corporation. Not catering to a small subset of forum enthusiasts to the point where they realize that they're going out of business. Just ask a company like Nintendo what happens when your product only appeals to a small subset of people and isn't what the mass market wants.

They cater to what the PEOPLE want. That means what your mom cares about, your sister cares about, your gf may care about. They aren't really too worried about the fact that you think Haswell underdelivered on OC performance. Wasn't like you were going to then go out and gimp your system with a FX-9590

If they don't care, then why did they make Devil's Canyon, Anniversary Pentium, and why do they have a team dedicated for overclocking?

 

[tential]

How many forum users would there have to be to make a substantial part of Intel's income.?

If over clocking enthusiasts were such a small niche then custom PC assemblers such as Digital Storm, Origin Pc, Maingear, etc wouldn't exist.

There shouldn't be any closed loop AIOs or Cpu Waterblocks made.
Because going by your math.
The companies wouldn't sell enough of those products to make back their production costs/ R&D etc.

Also if enthusiast are such a small portion then I don't think that Intel needed to launch the Xtreme Ocers warranty.

Forum users are a significant (read: not ultimate but in no ways SMALL) part of intel's revenue. They have to care about them.X79-X99 exist in part due to Ocing enthusiasts and the other half being for video encoders/ photoshops pro, etc. Most of whom also OC their CPU.

There are entire line of products that exist just for OCers, you cannot call that small.

Wow that's amazing. You proved my point exactly in your post.
Just because something is a small niche, doesn't mean it won't exist. Niche manufacturers are just that, NICHE.
"If over clocking enthusiasts were such a small niche then custom PC assemblers such as Digital Storm, Origin Pc, Maingear, etc wouldn't exist."
Do any of these companies sell more PCs than Dell? That's the point, these are small niche custom PC assemblers. They have carved out their niche at making money. Intel doesn't CATER to them, these companies take intel's products and cater it to enthusiasts.

Are you seriously trying to say that Intel should Cater to Digital Storm, Origin, MainGear over companies like Dell?
No even worse, you're not even try to say that. You're trying to say that Intel should cater to Forum Enthusiasts who post and complain about their chips. The 1-2 people on a forum who do so. It's not like 100s of Origin/DigitalStorm/MainGear customers are coming on here complaining. It's under TEN people ona forum complaining. You as an individual aren't important I'm sorry. Unless there are 1000s of complaints that are hurting Intel's bottom line, they couldn't care less what you as an individual think about Haswell's poor OC performance or whether Devil's Canyon is a significant upgrade.
No one is coming out in droves to complain so don't expect anything to change or for intel to care that you think things should.

 

[tential]

If they don't care, then why did they make Devil's Canyon, Anniversary Pentium, and why do they have a team dedicated for overclocking?

You're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm saying Intel isn't going to go out of their way to please forum enthusiasts. Not that they won't sell things to OCers. I'm saying that even if Haswell and Devil's Canyon aren't impressive to Forum Enthusiasts, they'll still sell those chips to OCers and those same Forum Enthusiasts who are complaining because they still purchase everything that comes out.

 

[tolis626]

No this isn't like that at all.

This is like GM saying "I don't give a crap about Corvette Enthusiasts when there are tons of CASUAL Corvette buyers out there." Tons of people buy Corvette's. This would be like GM saying they don't give a crap about a small subset of Corvette buyers who are hyper critical about things.

Forum users are a SMALL subset of enthusiast processors sold. Intel isn't worried about making sure these types of enthusiasts are happy because these types of enthusiasts are hard to please in the first place, and these types of enthusiasts will CONTINUE to purchase Intel products no matter how critical they are of them because it's the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE.

And sorry, but an unhappy enthusiast on a forum isn't going to say much. Even if MANY review sites said "Haswell Desktop Meh." How many people STILL WENT OUT AND BOUGHT IT? You can meh all you want about Haswell, and Devil's Canyon if it turns out to be nothing special. The truth is, you only have one option if you want the best processor and it's intel. If intel did a 20% IPC increase next year, there would no doubt still be enthusiasts on forums saying "I want more." Intel knows that hyper enthusiasts on forums will never be satisfied and will always want more. Catering your products to that extremely small subset of people is the most insane thing you can do as a company. Intel's in the market of being a highly relevant multibillion dollar corporation. Not catering to a small subset of forum enthusiasts to the point where they realize that they're going out of business. Just ask a company like Nintendo what happens when your product only appeals to a small subset of people and isn't what the mass market wants.

They cater to what the PEOPLE want. That means what your mom cares about, your sister cares about, your gf may care about. They aren't really too worried about the fact that you think Haswell underdelivered on OC performance. Wasn't like you were going to then go out and gimp your system with a FX-9590

I disagree. I think everyone is downplaying the amount and significance of enthusiasts. Yes, things aren't like they were a few years ago, but they aren't as doom and gloom as some make them to be.

A few days ago, I was talking with a friend who now wants to buy a desktop. She is a so-so gamer and already has a laptop for her mobile needs. She initially wanted a better laptop, I talked her out of it. Then she wanted the cheapest possible desktop. Then she got jealous of the rig I'm building and now wants a decent desktop, with a 4670(k? maybe) and a 280x. And that's not the first example, but it's the most recent.

PS : I love women who are gamers. Like rare gems...

PS 2 : Does anyone know when Z97 mobos will start coming out? I desperately want Asus' Maximus VI Formula (Because it looks SO sexy), but if there is a Z97 version about to come out, I won't be getting it now. I have enough patience to wait a month and a half...

 

[biostud]

Hopefully the DC changes will appear in Haswell-E too.

 

[B-Riz]

You're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm saying Intel isn't going to go out of their way to please forum enthusiasts. Not that they won't sell things to OCers. I'm saying that even if Haswell and Devil's Canyon aren't impressive to Forum Enthusiasts, they'll still sell those chips to OCers and those same Forum Enthusiasts who are complaining because they still purchase everything that comes out.

But they are going out of their way to please enthusiasts; or at least market to them.

I bet dollars to donuts the take rate for Haswell would have been much higher if the O/C results (proportionally) were not so meh compared to Sandy Bridge; selling because it is new is not the same as selling because it is impressive.

Why is Devil's Canyon being touted as having better TIM?

Could it be because Haswell did not, compared to Sandy Bridge???

 

[tential]

I disagree. I think everyone is downplaying the amount and significance of enthusiasts. Yes, things aren't like they were a few years ago, but they aren't as doom and gloom as some make them to be.

A few days ago, I was talking with a friend who now wants to buy a desktop. She is a so-so gamer and already has a laptop for her mobile needs. She initially wanted a better laptop, I talked her out of it. Then she wanted the cheapest possible desktop. Then she got jealous of the rig I'm building and now wants a decent desktop, with a 4670(k? maybe) and a 280x. And that's not the first example, but it's the most recent.

PS : I love women who are gamers. Like rare gems...

PS 2 : Does anyone know when Z97 mobos will start coming out? I desperately want Asus' Maximus VI Formula (Because it looks SO sexy), but if there is a Z97 version about to come out, I won't be getting it now. I have enough patience to wait a month and a half...

So you proved my point. Enthusiasts may complain, but at the end of the day, you still had to go with intel. Trying to please enthusiasts is the hardest thing. They'll always want more. But at the end of the day, you still have to recommend them because it's still the best there.

 

[rtsurfer]

Wow that's amazing. You proved my point exactly in your post.
Just because something is a small niche, doesn't mean it won't exist. Niche manufacturers are just that, NICHE.
"If over clocking enthusiasts were such a small niche then custom PC assemblers such as Digital Storm, Origin Pc, Maingear, etc wouldn't exist."
Do any of these companies sell more PCs than Dell? That's the point, these are small niche custom PC assemblers. They have carved out their niche at making money. Intel doesn't CATER to them, these companies take intel's products and cater it to enthusiasts.

Are you seriously trying to say that Intel should Cater to Digital Storm, Origin, MainGear over companies like Dell?
No even worse, you're not even try to say that. You're trying to say that Intel should cater to Forum Enthusiasts who post and complain about their chips. The 1-2 people on a forum who do so. It's not like 100s of Origin/DigitalStorm/MainGear customers are coming on here complaining. It's under TEN people ona forum complaining. You as an individual aren't important I'm sorry. Unless there are 1000s of complaints that are hurting Intel's bottom line, they couldn't care less what you as an individual think about Haswell's poor OC performance or whether Devil's Canyon is a significant upgrade.
No one is coming out in droves to complain so don't expect anything to change or for intel to care that you think things should.

I never said that Boutique PC makers sell as many PCs as Dell.
I said that it is not that small that it can be ignored.

Plus enthusiast tend to be more vocal about their opinion than your regular run of the mill Dell PC buyer.

Here s the Haswell Ocing club on OCN
http://www.overclock.net/t/1411077/haswell-overclocking-guide-with-statistics

11950 posts.
Spreadsheet listing 164 Unique owners, excluding people like me who asked questions when they needed, but never bothered to add themselves to the spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...NjlDYWl6ZnV4OVlNc0lMU1V3c1E&usp=sharing#gid=0

This is just Haswell & also a single forum on the internet (although might be the most popular IMHO).

If you want to look at other Intel processors,

Sandy Club
http://www.overclock.net/t/1051733/...-2500k-i5-2550k-i7-2600k-i7-2700k-owners-club

Sandy-E Club
http://www.overclock.net/t/1167939/official-sandy-bridge-e-overclock-leaderboard-owners-club

Ivy Club
http://www.overclock.net/t/1250090/official-ivy-bridge-owners-thread

Ivy - E club
http://www.overclock.net/t/1439469/ivy-bridge-e-owners-club

People who de-lidded because of the Cheap TIM
http://www.overclock.net/t/1313179/official-delidded-club-guide


Believe me, even if a fraction of these people start complaining, it will still be more than 1-2 you think there are.
Plus you are forgetting negative reviews from various tech sites/Youtubers.

I wonder why Intel was demoing a 5Ghz Haswell laptop at this years PAX EAST since according to you nobody cares.
https://teksyndicate.com/videos/intel-pax-laptop-oc-50-ghz-thin-sli-laptop-two-give-aways

If those companies take Intel's products and cater them to enthusiast, then I wonder what will happen when nobody will buy EK, XSPC, etcs Water Blocks.
Nobody buying ASUS, GIGABYTE, MSI, ASROCK, etc Overclocking motherboards.
I mean they wouldn't complain to Intel, would they now.?

It is well known that it is important for both Intel & AMD to keep their Motherboard Vendors pleased. It is an important part of their Business plan.

I don't think ASUS will be happy if nobody buys the next $500 MotherBoard because the Processor it is made for doesn't overclock.
Everybody will stick to ASUS PRO MB.

Edit:-
Forgot a major point.
It is forum junkies like us who build a new PC every new year & contribute to Intel's sales.
You Dell PC buyer is still using his Core 2 DUO. AKA not contributing to Intel's yearly sales.

 

[tential]

But they are going out of their way to please enthusiasts; or at least market to them.

I bet dollars to donuts the take rate for Haswell would have been much higher if the O/C results (proportionally) were not so meh compared to Sandy Bridge; selling because it is new is not the same as selling because it is impressive.

Why is Devil's Canyon being touted as having better TIM?

Could it be because Haswell did not, compared to Sandy Bridge???

I bet it would have been if Haswell had a higher OC results.
And if Intel could get those higher OC results for free they would.
But intel focused on power draw. Intel would rather focus on decreasing power draw to attract a mobile moving market, rather than focus on OC results of Haswell so that they can get a small amount more of enthusiasts. And lets not forget, enthusiasts STILL BOUGHT HASWELL. Lots of enthusiasts still did.

You have to remember focus and focusing on what enthusiasts want which is more performance, isn't as important as focusing on what the general consumer wants which is less power draw. You have 2 bases of users who want two completely different things. Except General Consumer is a much larger base of customers. So yes, intel wants more performance. But performance is secondary to power draw optimization as enthusiasts are a smaller market than the general consumer. End of story.

Edit:
Name 1 company that is focusing on CPU performance and is ignoring power draw? Name 1 company that isn't focusing on performance per watt and keeping low power consumption?
EVERY Chip maker is doing so.
AMD has basically given up on the enthusiast market. The FX line is done. Intel has NO incentive to focus on CPU performance over power draw. I'm not saying Intel isn't going to make faster processors and I'm not saying they won't market these processors towards enthusiasts/gamers ever. I'm saying that intel's new architectures will be power focused because that's where the real money is.
The evidence is right in front of you with Haswell's release focusing mostly on power draw. It's where the market is.

 

[BrightCandle]

There are 600 million PCs in the world capable of playing crysis, ie gamer class machines. Which in a world market of about 2 billion people able to afford a computer its a sizable and important minority. That doesn't correlate well with those wanting refresh of Intel CPUs but going off Valve's data and Microsoft's hardware failure data 10s of millions of gamers over clock their PCs. Small markets compared to Intel's total market but far from tiny. 10s of million overclocked CPU sales is bigger than either of the xb1 and ps4 total sales and possible bigger than the xbox360 and ps3 total sales. Yet we don't talk about those being small niche markets even though they are compared to gaming PC total market availability.

I personally find arguing for the mythical average consumer kind of pointless and a little insulting. Why can't we just discuss about things we want not what some Sally Jones mythical assumed stupid super mum wants. Stereotypes are useless nonsense and if you aren't in the group you are arguing based on stereotypes, which is another way of saying its based on prejudice.

 

[tential]

There is no market in which enthusiasts are the main focus. In the end, enthusiasts needs ALWAYS will take a backseat to general consumer.

For HDTVs, enthusiasts want better black levels and color reproduction.
Consumers want 4K resolution (well it's easier to market 4k resolution than better black levels so it's more about what is easier to market to consumers according to corporations).

Speakers
Enthusiasts want speakers that play well at reference level, have high sensitivty, etc.
Consumers want speakers that are small (either soundbar type or Thin Towers/Bookshelf)

There is never a time where a LARGE corporation will specifically go out of their way to make enthusiasts happy over the general consumer.

Intel isn't going to focus on OC performance over low power draw.
AMD isn't going to focus on the desktop market over the mobile market.
Bose isn't going to focus on making a real high fidelty home theater system over their general jokes of HT sets they sell today. (They won't release something that will compete with something like the JTR Noesis 212).
Sony/MS aren't going to focus on putting out the best graphics possible to please enthusiasts and instead went with weak GPU/CPU combo that most enthusiast gamers most likely already own a PC that is far more powerful and have played games that look far better than anything that is out right now on the PS4/XboxOne.
There are TONS of examples.

 

[rtsurfer]

Nobody said that they don't like reduced power bills. Reduced power is all the noise because people want increase battery life on their portables. Ask a desktop guy if they want more performance or reduced power. You will see an interesting divide.
It is hard to both increase OCing capability & reduce power consumption at the same time.

Plus all the companies you listed are not in the same shoes as Intel.
As I said Intel has obligations to its MOBO manufacturers to put out parts that get people to buy High end products.
The profit margin Intel has on x79 is way higher then on Z87.

Plus if you finish a task faster due to higher clockspeed & more performance, you can go to idle faster, which also contributes to power saving.

I said this before & I will say it again,
Enthusiasts might not be a priority, but they certainly can't be ignored.
Perhaps you missed the part where Haswell consumes more power at load than Ivy Bridge.

From Anand's Review

Under load, there’s no escaping the fact that Haswell can burn more power in pursuit of higher performance:
Here I’m showing an 11.8% increase in power consumption, and in this particular test the Core i7-4770K is 13% faster than the i7-3770K. Power consumption goes up, but so does performance per watt.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/2

I wonder why Intel made such a choice.??

Intel gets away right now because AMD is not competitive. If Piledriver had the IPC to go along with its ridiculous Clockspeeds & Power Draw. You bet Intel had to scrape their power savings for next generation & focus on performance.

 

[Pheesh]

tential- for all of your proclamations we have a case where Intel have reworked a specific enthusiast product to improve high frequency performance. You can poopoo that all you want but together with their specific mention of the i5 and i7 desktop sales in their earnings report doesn't that indicate some recognition?

 

[moonbogg]

Enthusiasts are a gigantic part of the hardware industry at large. If not for us, hardware would not have advanced anywhere near as fast. Hardware got faster so quickly for one reason: gamers. The article is about PC gamers rescuing the PC market. We built the market and we will keep it alive.

An excerpt from an article:

"One final note that should leave you agape: Peddie estimates that upcoming PC exclusives like ARMA 3 from Bohemia Interactive will influence $800 million in PC builds."

Almost 1 billion dollars in PC sales for a single game that isn't even that good. Below is the full article link.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...ggling-pc-market-its-pc-gamers-to-the-rescue/

 

[blackened23]

Dudes, while I agree with you all in principle with the entire enthusiast thing. You have to keep this in mind.

Intel is fighting the long fight. The long fight that keeps them alive as a corporation 10 or 20 years from now; what this means is that their architectures _must_ focus on performance per watt as a baseline, and scaled up accordingly for desktop. Remember, intel designs one architecture for everything. Mobile, tablets, enterprise, servers, they ALL USE the same architecture. Performance per watt is INCREDIBLY important for mobile, server and enterprise, these are the highest grossing business lines for the silicon industry. This is not always compatible with what the enthusiast wants, some want the 250W TDP CPU that requires a super loud cooler and can overclock to unheard of levels. That would be great. I agree in principle. However, again, intel is fighting the fight to be around 10 years from now. To get their CPUs in mobile devices such as ultrabooks, tablets, and macbooks, they absolutely have to tailor their CPUs toward performance per watt. To get their Xeon CPUs in enterprise data centers, they must be efficient. If they aren't, intel will die the slow death to big.little ARM architectures which would overall be better due to efficiency. To get their mobile CORE CPUs in macbooks, they must be efficient.

Again, performance per watt is the new metric for the silicon industry. In past years, when mobile wasn't a thing, and even laptops weren't given a second thought, it didn't matter. But it does matter now. So intel has to do what they do. That said, the Haswell 4770k is _still_ the best and fastest overclockable CPU you can buy. While theoretically (and in practice) SB may overclock 400-500mhz higher, that doesn't matter. The IPC difference with a Haswell being 400mhz slower would still favor the Haswell. So it's still the best enthusiast grade CPU. Also, if DC address the overvoltage to clockspeed variance on Haswell, it will be a great CPU.

Now people focus on the TIM not being soldered on Haswell. This isnt' even the main issue with haswell overclocking and NEVER has been. You can control temperatures. What you can't control is the consistency between getting certain clockspeeds at given voltages. With SB and Ivy, you can over-volt to certain levels and reasonably be assured that you could hit a clockspeed. With Ivy, at 1.3Vcore, you could reasonably hit 4.7ghz and that would be well faster than a 5.1 SB. The temps would be high, yes. And not everyone has a cooler good enough for those high temps - if you're using a hyper 212 cheese cooler, it won't cool well enough. H100i though? Problem solved. You can control temps. You cannot control voltage > clockspeed variance, which IS THE problem with Haswell.

If DC fixes THAT problem, then, we have a good CPU on our hands. The temperature is a non issue IMHO. You can get an H100i and get good temps, enough to overclock. But the variance on Haswell which wasn't present on Ivy or SB is what prevents it from being consistent. DESPITE THIS, like I said, 4770k is the best mainstream enthusiast grade CPUs. You can still hit 4.3 to 4.4 even on the worst 4770k chips if your cooler can handle it, and if you get lucky, maybe 4.6. Anyway. The variance in terms of voltage > clockspeeds w/ haswell, Hopefully DC addresses this.

 

[ehume]

You think it's going to be soldered? Curious why, and why you would actually want that. Think it will clock better if it's soldered?

I can OC my current chip to 5GHz on a trophy run, and it is stable at 4.7 GHz on old-fashioned non-AVX LinX. But run it with AVX2 Linpack, and it overheats in seconds, no matter what heatsink I use. I can run AVX2 Linpack at 4.3 GHz without overheating. I lose 400MHz, but I won't run into a surprise overheat.

Give me a soldered (cpu to ihs) chip like my old i7 860 and I would love to see how well I can OC the thing. Ivy Bridge E is soldered. I'm hoping that Haswell-E is soldered. If Devils Canyon is soldered I will dive in.

 

[rtsurfer]

Now people focus on the TIM not being soldered on Haswell. This isnt' even the main issue with haswell overclocking and NEVER has been. You can control temperatures. What you can't control is the consistency between getting certain clockspeeds at given voltages. With SB and Ivy, you can over-volt to certain levels and reasonably be assured that you could hit a clockspeed. With Ivy, at 1.3Vcore, you could reasonably hit 4.7ghz and that would be well faster than a 5.1 SB. The temps would be high, yes. And not everyone has a cooler good enough for those high temps - if you're using a hyper 212 cheese cooler, it won't cool well enough. H100i though? Problem solved. You can control temps. You cannot control voltage > clockspeed variance, which IS THE problem with Haswell.

Agree with the rest you have said.

Now I know that I am not talking about a real world usage scenario here but believe me if you have ever run Linpack on Haswell, you'll know it is not easy to cool.

I can hit 100C at Winter room temps, around 25F with my 4770k at 4.5 @ 1.275V. My H100i fans at full speed & the case door open. It is not easy to cool at all.
I can hit 80C while testing 4.6Ghz at 1.315V with my rig outside in ambients of around 0 - 10F.

Granted I only used Linpack for stability testing. Still temps are somewhat of an concern if not the major ones.

If the issue was purely the voltage variance then people shouldn't be able to hit higher clocks with de-lidding, because that only helps with the temps.

You can argue that lower volts = lower temps, but usually most chips will require 1.3V+ to get anywhere near or above 4.8Ghz.

A small test sample is available here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...NjlDYWl6ZnV4OVlNc0lMU1V3c1E&usp=sharing#gid=0

At the end of the Doc,
Average OC = 4.55 Ghz
Average VID = 1.29V
for a sample size of 164.

Of course there are Golden chips like some sent to reviewers
4.7Ghz @ 1.2V
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CHs5_TdpXE
@ 20:50 in the video.

But they are called Golden for a reason, they are not common.
They also hit 80C a Custom loop, nonetheless.

Temperatures are still an issue.

 

[Homeles]

I wonder why Intel made such a choice.??

You wonder why Intel chose to have higher performance per watt?

 

[rtsurfer]

You wonder why Intel chose to have higher performance per watt?

It was a rhetorical question.

He was saying that Intel only cares about lower power consumption.
I presented a scenario where Intel choose performance over power.

It resulted in a higher perf per watt is a different consequence which was not what I was discussing there.

 

[blackened23]

Of course your temps are high at 1.31V. The realistic upper limit with Haswell in my experience is either 1.25V or 1.275V (MAYBE, BIG IF). With Ivy the upper limit was around 1.3V. Once you go past those points on those respective CPUs, yes, your temps will be stupid. And temps during stability testing rarely matches real world temps, but the point stands. All CPUs have realistic upper voltage limits which can be mitigated to an extent by cooling, but once you get to a certain point, it just aint going to work well. As I said, Ivy was 1.275V maybe 1.3V if you were lucky, or 1.25V preferably on Haswell. Some have gone higher on Haswell. But 1.25V (1.275V if lucky) is the area in which stress test temps begin to get stupid. The upper limit with SB was around 1.5V or so, at least with the SB I used.

Bottom line here? Increased voltage is not inconsequential. You get to a certain point (as mentioned above) where temps are just not sustainable at certain voltage levels, and that voltage level varies according to the architecture. The main flaw with Haswell and OC'ing, like I said, was the Haswell 4770k is inconsistent in terms of voltage > OC'ed clockspeed. Even JJ from Asus mentioned this in their Z87 overclocking video. He SPECIFICALLY mentioned variance with the 4770k voltage > clockspeed. They tested 1000 Haswell 4770k CPUs and some would hit 4.2 at 1.25V. Some would hit 4.6 at 1.25V. Variance. Mine easily does 4.5ghz at 1.25V. However, a friend with the same motherboard can only get 4.3 at 1.25V. This type of inconsistency was far less frequent on IVB and Sandy. Variance existed on Ivy and Sandy, but it was far less pronounced. But. Haswell is still the best CPU you can buy; even with a lower clockspeed the increased IPC over Ivy and SB makes the Haswell better.

Also. The architecture used is prioritized for performance per watt. Period. You notice Haswell is used in the mobile chips, the server chips, the enterprise chips, the desktop chips (including the 4770k) and the upcoming Haswell-E. These chips are all using the same architecture. At a base, the design goal was performance per watt. They don't use a different architecture for one chip, a different for another, within the Haswell family. They were all designed as Haswell, and that architecture was designed with performance per watt in mind. Period. Intel must do this if they want to survive as a corporation 5,10,15 years from now.

The fact that ULV Haswell CPUs have ridiculously low TDPs underscores how incredibly well Intel did with performance per watt on the haswell; the undesirable side effect is being that the architecture is designed for performance per watt, that all out IPC cannot be done simultaneously. Does that suck for the desktop guy in me? Sure. But. The times have changed.
Intel is in the long fight, and that the race for IPC dominance is no longer the case. Now with that said, IPC will still increase every year, but that race is long over with the new race being performance per watt. The changing computing world necessitates this. The desktop guy in me would love an 8 core 500W TDP CPU that could overclock to 8 billion GHz, but it just aint gonna happen. Any silicon corporation that wants to survive, is prioritizing performance per watt. Mobile? Requires performance per watt architecture. Enterprise? Same story. Servers? Same story. Architectures require performance per watt. Notice AMD doing the same thing? Only they're doing far worse than intel with worse performance and worse performance per watt. BUT. I guess it's a far tougher situation for AMD. Intel and AMD are both on the same track - Prioritizing performance per watt in their respective architectures, and AMD can't do as well because they're tied to the lack of node development at TSMC and they have extremely limited R+D funds. And without R+D (or with far less) you just can't do what a competitor with more R+D can do. But, make no mistake. Every silicon company in the business has performance per watt, not all out performance with a disregard for PPW in their sights. To not do this (focus on PPW) would be corporate suicide, because most segments of computing absolutely require performance per watt for viability. It just so happens that includes the most profitable segments: servers, enterprise, and mobile.

 

[tential]

Dudes, while I agree with you all in principle with the entire enthusiast thing. You have to keep this in mind.

Intel is fighting the long fight. The long fight that keeps them alive as a corporation 10 or 20 years from now; what this means is that their architectures _must_ focus on performance per watt as a baseline, and scaled up accordingly for desktop. Remember, intel designs one architecture for everything. Mobile, tablets, enterprise, servers, they ALL USE the same architecture. Performance per watt is INCREDIBLY important for mobile, server and enterprise, these are the highest grossing business lines for the silicon industry. This is not always compatible with what the enthusiast wants, some want the 250W TDP CPU that requires a super loud cooler and can overclock to unheard of levels. That would be great. I agree in principle. However, again, intel is fighting the fight to be around 10 years from now. To get their CPUs in mobile devices such as ultrabooks, tablets, and macbooks, they absolutely have to tailor their CPUs toward performance per watt. To get their Xeon CPUs in enterprise data centers, they must be efficient. If they aren't, intel will die the slow death to big.little ARM architectures which would overall be better due to efficiency. To get their mobile CORE CPUs in macbooks, they must be efficient.

Again, performance per watt is the new metric for the silicon industry. In past years, when mobile wasn't a thing, and even laptops weren't given a second thought, it didn't matter. But it does matter now. So intel has to do what they do. That said, the Haswell 4770k is _still_ the best and fastest overclockable CPU you can buy. While theoretically (and in practice) SB may overclock 400-500mhz higher, that doesn't matter. The IPC difference with a Haswell being 400mhz slower would still favor the Haswell. So it's still the best enthusiast grade CPU. Also, if DC address the overvoltage to clockspeed variance on Haswell, it will be a great CPU.

Now people focus on the TIM not being soldered on Haswell. This isnt' even the main issue with haswell overclocking and NEVER has been. You can control temperatures. What you can't control is the consistency between getting certain clockspeeds at given voltages. With SB and Ivy, you can over-volt to certain levels and reasonably be assured that you could hit a clockspeed. With Ivy, at 1.3Vcore, you could reasonably hit 4.7ghz and that would be well faster than a 5.1 SB. The temps would be high, yes. And not everyone has a cooler good enough for those high temps - if you're using a hyper 212 cheese cooler, it won't cool well enough. H100i though? Problem solved. You can control temps. You cannot control voltage > clockspeed variance, which IS THE problem with Haswell.

If DC fixes THAT problem, then, we have a good CPU on our hands. The temperature is a non issue IMHO. You can get an H100i and get good temps, enough to overclock. But the variance on Haswell which wasn't present on Ivy or SB is what prevents it from being consistent. DESPITE THIS, like I said, 4770k is the best mainstream enthusiast grade CPUs. You can still hit 4.3 to 4.4 even on the worst 4770k chips if your cooler can handle it, and if you get lucky, maybe 4.6. Anyway. The variance in terms of voltage > clockspeeds w/ haswell, Hopefully DC addresses this.

Someone gets it.....
Not surprising given the poster but this is exactly the things I am trying to say. Both posts are exactly spot on and better worded than mine.

They'll take their current microarchitecture and release an enthusiast part, but they'll never design a chip around enthusiasts.

 

[Bubbleawsome]

I won't take Devil's Canyon, but if it bumps the 4670k low enough I'll take that!

 

[rtsurfer]

Of course your temps are high at 1.31V. The realistic upper limit with Haswell in my experience is either 1.25V or 1.275V (MAYBE, BIG IF). With Ivy the upper limit was around 1.3V. Once you go past those points on those respective CPUs, yes, your temps will be stupid. And temps during stability testing rarely matches real world temps, but the point stands. All CPUs have realistic upper voltage limits which can be mitigated to an extent by cooling, but once you get to a certain point, it just aint going to work well. As I said, Ivy was 1.275V maybe 1.3V if you were lucky, or 1.25V preferably on Haswell. Some have gone higher on Haswell. But 1.25V (1.275V if lucky) is the area in which stress test temps begin to get stupid. The upper limit with SB was around 1.5V or so, at least with the SB I used.

If you are not willing to go close to 1.3V or above than you can kiss anything near 4.8 Ghz & above good bye.
Not denying its clock for clock efficiency & IPC.

Also how do you explain Linus' s 4770K hitting 80C in Aida64 @1.2V.?
That was on a custom loop & heck Aida64 is not even supposed to be as Hot as Linpack.

I never argued your variance point.

I am arguing that temps are still an issue if you want a high OC.
4.8Ghz might seem high by Haswell standards, but it is actually nothing to sneeze at when you look back at Ivy & SB.

If Intel can't get us past 4.8Ghz than this whole refresh & new MOBOs are as good as paper weights in my book.
Should have just gone to Broadwell.

As to 1.3V being the upper limit, I have seen people run close to 1.5V.
The limits are relative to what the user decides it to be. Yes the temps get stupid, but there is no other way if you want to go higher on the clock speed.

 

[AtenRa]

Raising the frequency and to higher degree voltage on FinFets substantially raises temperature of the Fins and has a negative effect in IC performance and Clocks. It will also accelerate degradation, thus better cooling is needed.

I dont know if Devil's Canyon will OC much better than Haswell, perhaps 200-300mhz, but the better TIM was needed from the time Intel was thinking to raise the frequency.

 

[seitur]

I don't really see any reason for Intel to give a crap about overclocking enthusiasts. What is the breakdown, 99.999% sales through dell/hp etc and .001% through newegg selling to people on this forum?

I don't know how it does look in US, but in my country pre-build desktop PCs are practically ONLY bought by some companies or goverment offices.

Private persons practially don't buy new pre-build branded desktops at all. Their sale got so low, that they are not displayed in PC stores anymore.

Stores offering and selling CPUs, motherboards, PSUs, cases etc are plenty. (ofc many of them will assembly a custom PC for you for a little fee as well) - and ALOT of normal non-enthusiasts buying Celerons, Pentiums, i3, locked i5-i7, etc buys there too.

Pre-build branded desktop PC sale outside of some companies & corproations are practically non-existant. *


* - only exception being post-lease units refubrished by some stores that are few generations old, but being sold for a very low price.