Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[Doug S]

DDR generational transitions are curious. It's not like the manufacturing process of memory ICs gets worse.

It happens because people compare enthusiast DDRn with conservatively timed DDRn+1 that gets targeted at server/workstation customers first. The early adopters of a new DDR standard care about system reliability far more than performance, and conservatively timed DDR5 (which is all there is now) is a nice performance bump over conservatively timed DDR4.

 

[dullard]

Still with DDR5 latency being as horrible as it is, it will impact bandwidth as well. Not in the most synthetic benchmarks like Aida64, but things like Intel's Memory Latency checker will paint different picture - latency x bandwith product is gonna be bad and that will hurt real world ( and get mitigated at same time by DDR5 extra channels and larger L3 cache ).

Isn't the best (the 'A' specification) DDR5 at a ~14 ns latency? That is the same as the best DDR4 latency. The marketing latency number is higher (CL), but the actual time taken is the same since you double the number of clocks (CL is twice as high) but have twice as fast of clocks and it all cancels out.

 

[jpiniero]

Isn't the best (the 'A' specification) DDR5 at a ~14 ns latency? That is the same as the best DDR4 latency. The marketing latency number is higher (CL), but the actual time taken is the same since you double the number of clocks (CL is twice as high) but have twice as fast of clocks and it all cancels out.

You can do a lot better than DDR5 JEDEC on CL. Like at 4800, DDR5 JEDEC is 34 for A and even just a quick look on Newegg there's DDR4 under 20. I was kind of assuming that there would be DDR5 available with tighter timings but perhaps not at launch?

 

[AMDK11]

Rocketlake has the AVX512 and Alderlake does not.

 

[JoeRambo]

Isn't the best (the 'A' specification) DDR5 at a ~14 ns latency? That is the same as the best DDR4 latency. The marketing latency number is higher (CL), but the actual time taken is the same since you double the number of clocks (CL is twice as high) but have twice as fast of clocks and it all cancels out.

I think rock bottom is 3200CL18 => 11.25ns first word

Is there DDR5 4800CL27 out there to match it? Nope, ~15ns first word stuff with god knows how terrible secondaries and tertiaries.

 

[Abwx]

I don't think this is a source, it's a copy and paste from other known sources. Look they don't have more SKU infos, the P/E clock speeds of the K-SKUs were already known, they don't know more than this. The non K core/thread counts might be nonsense there. 12700 listed as 8+4. On Geekbench it's 8+0: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/9528015

Clock speed seems off as well.

They could have disabled the E cores in the GB submission.
Also the Sandra test says 32 threads instead of 24, so unless E cores have SMT look like there s still some correct CPUID implementations to be done on softs.

 

[dullard]

I think rock bottom is 3200CL18 => 11.25ns first word

Is there DDR5 4800CL27 out there to match it? Nope, ~15ns first word stuff with god knows how terrible secondaries and tertiaries.

So, you are comparing the very fastest latency DDR4 (not in JEDEC specification) to the very worst allowable (within JEDEC specification) for DDR5? And then you are concluding that the not yet released DDR5 memory won't eventually match or exceed?

 

[mikk]

I think rock bottom is 3200CL18 => 11.25ns first word

Is there DDR5 4800CL27 out there to match it? Nope, ~15ns first word stuff with god knows how terrible secondaries and tertiaries.

DDR4-3200 CL22 is the JEDEC standard and the rock bottom, almost all of Intels TGL-H and TGL-U notebooks with DDR4-3200 using the JEDEC standard with CL22.

 

[Asterox]

New Intel stock CPU coolers. Only for 65W TDP CPU models, one model maybe with blue led light.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1436343672669233158

Stock 65W TDP i9 CPU model, hm probably very TDP limited OEM version.

 

[JoeRambo]

DDR4-3200 CL22 is the JEDEC standard and the rock bottom, almost all of Intels TGL-H and TGL-U notebooks with DDR4-3200 using the JEDEC standard with CL22.

On desktop, at 3200 speed the slowest i can buy is CL18, that is not enthusiast, junk grade memory without cooling.
Enthusiast stuff is 8ns first word.

Rest assured Anandtech will test JEDEC speeds and timings and those slow 15ns timings will hurt Alder Lake hard. Intel has warped back to 2015 with memory latency and they will pay for it in "stock" tests

 

[AMDK11]

Granted, no one knows what app this slide is based on but ADL-S is ~17% ahead of Zen 3 and slightly less than that against RKL-S in single core uplift in this particular scenario, Maybe we can trace the app by the difference between RKL-S and Zen 3. GB5? CBxx?

View attachment 49878

Not! In this test, Single-thread GoldenCove is 18.3% faster than CypressCove and 21.2% faster than Zen3.
CypressCove AVX512
GoldenCove + Gracemont AVX2
Zen3 AVX2

 

[Zucker2k]

Could the next-gen mont core be seeing action already?

Intel Next-Gen Core Leaks Out, Xeon AP Server CPU to Pack Greater than 128 Cores [Rumor] | Hardware Times

The next-generation Intel core architecture may have been leaked out, and it’s named SSHPmont. If true, it’s a change from the usual naming scheme. From Tre to Grace to SSHP. Sounds too secret-y, and may simply be a placeholder. Either way, these SSHPmont cores will power the Sierra Forrest-AP...

www.hardwaretimes.com

Edit: Seems it is: "SSHPmont."

 

[Zucker2k]

Not! In this test, Single-thread GoldenCove is 18.3% faster than CypressCove and 21.5% faster than Zen3.
CypressCove AVX512
GoldenCove + Gracemont AVX2
Zen3 AVX2

I'm eyeballing the graph, and both Zen3 and Cypress Cove are past the 4/5ths mark (1600), so where are you getting your figures from?

 

[moonbogg]

That i7 model is looking really damn MOONBOGGY right now! That's the Intel Moonbogg edition right there. If these slides are accurate, then Intel 12th gen has me pretty damn excited. If true, then this feels like a return to glory for Intel. It's exciting and awesome and it's exactly what I want in my rig. $430 for the i7 even sounds just about perfect for such a chip. Everything looks amazing! I still have my X99 platform plus my 10700K platform and I could sell them both and get 12th gen for a pretty low cost!
Will I buy it though? Sadly not. Why? No GPUs. /thread.

 

[AMDK11]

I'm eyeballing the graph, and both Zen3 and Cypress Cove are past the 4/5ths mark (1600), so where are you getting your figures from?

Yyyyyy... Maths?
1650p Zen3 up to 2000p GoldenCove is 21.2%
1690p CypressCove up to 2000p GoldenCove is 18.3%

 

[Hulk]

A while back in thread I wrote my prediction that ADL 12900K will perform somewhere between 5900X and 5950X. Having a look at early benches I think that looks like it may be the case. If they price 12900K at 5900X levels they will have competitive parts. Of course we still need to see actual power measurements but even if they are high that won't affect desktop too much. For mobile on the other hand it could be a big deal.

 

[mikk]

On desktop, at 3200 speed the slowest i can buy is CL18, that is not enthusiast, junk grade memory without cooling.
Enthusiast stuff is 8ns first word.

Rest assured Anandtech will test JEDEC speeds and timings and those slow 15ns timings will hurt Alder Lake hard. Intel has warped back to 2015 with memory latency and they will pay for it in "stock" tests

You are wrong. DDR4-3200 CL22 is a JEDEC standard and in fact it is the second biggest CL group in the desktop market after CL16: https://geizhals.eu/?cat=ramddr3&xf=5015_3200~5828_DDR4

CL18 is not a JEDEC standard unlike CL22 (or CL40 on DDR5-4800). Of course nobody is using DDR4-3200 CL22 in a deskop test, this is a different matter. That's why comparing DDR4 OC against DDR5 JEDEC might not be the best idea.

 

[JoeRambo]

CL18 is not a JEDEC standard unlike CL22 (or CL40 on DDR5-4800). Of course nobody is using DDR4-3200 CL22 in a deskop test, this is a different matter. That's why comparing DDR4 OC against DDR5 JEDEC might not be the best idea.

I am not wrong about being able to buy 3200CL18 as slowest on my country market, but You are also right that JEDEC is CL20 and CL22 for 3200 speed.

What i am not wrong tho, is that Anandtechs of the world will test JEDEC and that sweet 15ns first word latency will bite Alder Lake performance. Add some unknowns about gear modes and penalty for early DDR5 will be high.
50% more bandwidth "stock" is nice, but only few workloads are even starved by it, mostly Linpack style calculations. While latency plays a role in every access coming from/to memory.


I think the question for desktop enthusiasts will be: will there be decent Z690 DDR4 overclocking motherboards, or will those be limited to DDR5?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Weren't there some hiccups testing Rocket Lake-S early on due to the funky stock memory controller settings?

 

[JoeRambo]

Weren't there some hiccups testing Rocket Lake-S early on due to the funky stock memory controller settings?

11700K as previewed has GEAR2 mode as default that costs extra latency + it was on funky prerelease uCode. Still initial DDR5 4800 JEDEC is gonna have horrible latency and that will show versus DDR4 opponents. Similar to Skylake DDR4 2133 release where it was baaad in gaming, even if same core served for years and had amazing memory scaling.

My statement is - DDR4 will provide said "scaling" for Alder Lake from day 1, while having comparable bandwith and better performance and price*

* as long as Intel does not shoot their feet with segmentation marketing machine gun this time.

 

[DrMrLordX]

11700K as previewed has GEAR2 mode as default that costs extra latency + it was on funky prerelease uCode.

Thanks, thought so.

 

[eek2121]

I am not wrong about being able to buy 3200CL18 as slowest on my country market, but You are also right that JEDEC is CL20 and CL22 for 3200 speed.

What i am not wrong tho, is that Anandtechs of the world will test JEDEC and that sweet 15ns first word latency will bite Alder Lake performance. Add some unknowns about gear modes and penalty for early DDR5 will be high.
50% more bandwidth "stock" is nice, but only few workloads are even starved by it, mostly Linpack style calculations. While latency plays a role in every access coming from/to memory.


I think the question for desktop enthusiasts will be: will there be decent Z690 DDR4 overclocking motherboards, or will those be limited to DDR5?

Technically when you run CL16 or CL18, or any other non-JEDEC setting, you are violating warranty.

There will be better speeds and timings when DDR5 releases, and at least one company has a DDR5 8400 SKU planned with timings on par woth the best DDR4 modules.

Weren't there some hiccups testing Rocket Lake-S early on due to the funky stock memory controller settings?

Yes, and ADL-S supports gear 2 AND gear 4. I expect we will see better performance once the chip is properly tested.

 

[lobz]

There will be better speeds and timings when DDR5 releases, and at least one company has a DDR5 8400 SKU planned with timings on par woth the best DDR4 modules.

Hopefully the decent reviewers will count the price of such modules in the price-performance conclusions as well.

 

[Bouowmx]

(Stale news) but from the list of upcoming ASRock 600 series boards

ASRock and NZXT Intel Z690, H670, B660 and H610 motherboards listed - VideoCardz.com

ASRock preparing a plethora of Intel 600 series motherboards We received a list of upcoming ASRock motherboards. The list offers a confirmation on upcoming chipset names, such as the flagship Z690 platform for high performance and overclocking, a feature-rich mid-range series such as H670 or...

videocardz.com

The Z690-C/D5 model may indicate DDR5 will be put on low-end Z boards too. The current Z590-C is an unbranded version of the Phantom Gaming 4.

 

[Zucker2k]

ADL-S 12600k + DDR5 6400

https://twitter.com/x/status/1437318787070500864