Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

[DrMrLordX]

If those benches are accurate more like Rowboat Lake.

I would be surprised if Rocket Lake-S loses that many benches to Comet Lake-S. There should be MT parity between the two. If there isn't, then Intel is in for more than a little bit of trouble, at least in the PR department.

 

[majord]

I wouldn't trust that "review" at all especially given their "superb" ability at overclocking by setting things to auto and pumping 1.48V in the CPU.
That barely 10% faster at single core workloads when several more leaks are closer to 15-20% hints heavily their setup was at fault.

Hey they got 693 and 6723 in the super repeatable CPU Z test when just a week ago we saw this also at fixed 5.2 GHz:

Isn't that a sub 2% score difference?

 

[lobz]

Isn't that a sub 2% score difference?

The numbers have to hit a magical and totally relative round number (in this case 700), or fake news.

 

[SAAA]

Isn't that a sub 2% score difference?

I'm mostly looking at the 7% difference in multithread, then that 2% can be margin of error.
Still when their benches average out at 10% faster single thread and 10% slower multithread that missing 7% completely negates the difference in cores.

 

[uzzi38]

Intel 11th Gen Core "Rocket Lake-S" CPUs prices listed by multiple retailers - VideoCardz.com

Intel Rocket Lake-S Pricing Intel’s entire Rocket Lake-S lineup has been posted by Belgian retailer 2Compute. The SKUs that were listed by the retailer include the high-end Rocket Lake-S and entry-level Comet Lake-Refresh processors, both being part of the 11th Gen core series. According to the...

videocardz.com

Some leaked pricing. Honestly this is far worse than I was expecting - I was expecting pricing to remain flat from 10th Gen.

 

[Asterox]

I would be surprised if Rocket Lake-S loses that many benches to Comet Lake-S. There should be MT parity between the two. If there isn't, then Intel is in for more than a little bit of trouble, at least in the PR department.

Not posible with 8/16 Rocket lake IPC. And again, blue dragon i9 11900K will have higher power consumption vs 10/20 i9 10900K .

Intel 11th Gen Core "Rocket Lake-S" CPUs prices listed by multiple retailers - VideoCardz.com

Intel Rocket Lake-S Pricing Intel’s entire Rocket Lake-S lineup has been posted by Belgian retailer 2Compute. The SKUs that were listed by the retailer include the high-end Rocket Lake-S and entry-level Comet Lake-Refresh processors, both being part of the 11th Gen core series. According to the...

videocardz.com

 

[jpiniero]

Intel 11th Gen Core "Rocket Lake-S" CPUs prices listed by multiple retailers - VideoCardz.com

Intel Rocket Lake-S Pricing Intel’s entire Rocket Lake-S lineup has been posted by Belgian retailer 2Compute. The SKUs that were listed by the retailer include the high-end Rocket Lake-S and entry-level Comet Lake-Refresh processors, both being part of the 11th Gen core series. According to the...

videocardz.com

Some leaked pricing. Honestly this is far worse than I was expecting - I was expecting pricing to remain flat from 10th Gen.

Seems to be a mixed bag, some are lower. The one big exception is the i7 K.

 

[JoeRambo]

Prices make little sense and are probably not official. For example 10900K in my country hovers in 500-550 range, hard to image 11900K being above once supply issues sort out.

Anyway i think there are only CPUs that are of interest to people. 11400F and 11700K, all that matters is how much they will end up costing and if Intel will clear 10XXX gen by lowering prices.

 

[jpiniero]

Don't think it got much attention, but Intel added a quad core i3 U for the first time for Tiger Lake. It does have a much lower turbo clock than the dual core i3.

 

[Hulk]

And some smart people in marketing have figured out they shouldn't compete at the same price point, hence we now have competing products at different price points.

5800X MSRP is ~&450
10900K MSRP is ~$490
5900X MSRP is ~$550

The "smart" people can try to obfuscate the issue by "mind tricking" consumers into thinking price structure is commensurate with performance but that does not translate into reality.

If, and it thus far appears to be the case, the 5800X performs like the 11900k, then that is where people will shop it. If the price is higher than the 5800X but performance is lower it will be ruled out as a potential buy.

Intel can price however they want but people are going to buy every last AMD Zen 3 available to avoid Intel (as is happening now check Amazon sales), which is why I stated that Intel's pricing structure is going to depend quite heavily on Zen 3 availability.

 

[LightningZ71]

Don't think it got much attention, but Intel added a quad core i3 U for the first time for Tiger Lake. It does have a much lower turbo clock than the dual core i3.

They must have been having some issues with not hitting power or thermal targets with the early batches of 10sf Tiger Lake chips that were otherwise mostly functional. It's a wired SKU though. It's likely to be notably slower for the types of casual games that those systems can run, but probably faster on any sort of multi-threaded code.

 

[shady28]

...which is why I stated that Intel's pricing structure is going to depend quite heavily on Zen 3 availability.

That's key and it something no one knows right now (availability). In the bigger market of OEM systems, AMD only has Zen 2 based "Pro" chips with an iGPU right now for OEMs , and that will be decidedly slower. Zen 3 is still nowhere to be found in the 7 major OEM lineups and we don't have a Zen 3 with iGPU yet. The majority of OEM systems sell without a dGPU, so right off the bat RKL will be better suited to an OEM's customer base. So this will undoubtedly suck up a lot of the supply for RKL.

I do think Intel is missing an opportunity with March releases of their new chips though, January would have been a blow to AMD and their supply situation. March gives AMD a couple more months to get supplies out there, and while AMD's Q4 2020 allocation of 70-80% to consoles will I think continue to impact availability for that time, I've seen nothing on their Q1 2021 allocation and by March that should be coming into play. I'm sure RKL will have big supply coming online, but we could actually see big supply of both RKL and Zen 3 desktop at about the same time.

But all that said, desktops are a shrinking percentage of the market and the real battleground is laptops. Very little discussion on that segment at these enthusiast sites.

 

[coercitiv]

The "smart" people can try to obfuscate the issue by "mind tricking" consumers into thinking price structure is commensurate with performance but that does not translate into reality.

If, and it thus far appears to be the case, the 5800X performs like the 11900k, then that is where people will shop it. If the price is higher than the 5800X but performance is lower it will be ruled out as a potential buy.

Don't confuse your line of thought with other people's line of thought, they are not (necessarily) the same.

Even when we look at your case only, you already admitted you value the 11900K more than 5800X, granted equal or better CPU performance. If you find value in the Xe iGPU and encode/decode engine, how are you going to rule out the 11900K just because it's $30-40 more expensive?

Going further to other customers, if the 11900K is going to be the gaming king even by 4-5%, how is that not worthy of some type of price premium in a market where demand currently goes beyond supply?

 

[Hulk]

Don't confuse your line of thought with other people's line of thought, they are not (necessarily) the same.

Even when we look at your case only, you already admitted you value the 11900K more than 5800X, granted equal or better CPU performance. If you find value in the Xe iGPU and encode/decode engine, how are you going to rule out the 11900K just because it's $30-40 more expensive?

Going further to other customers, if the 11900K is going to be the gaming king even by 4-5%, how is that not worthy of some type of price premium in a market where demand currently goes beyond supply?

Yes I agree. We're talking about degrees of value here.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The majority of OEM systems sell without a dGPU, so right off the bat RKL will be better suited to an OEM's customer base. So this will undoubtedly suck up a lot of the supply for RKL.

In the case of OEM systems, I would expect Intel to continue selling Comet Lake in that space. Smaller dice, better margins. Rocket Lake has a fairly limited selection of SKUs.

@Asterox

If Intel is actually right about Rocket Lake-S being 19% faster than Comet Lake-S, the 11900k should be only ~5% slower than the 10900k in MT scenarios. It should be real close. If not . . .

 

[Asterox]

In the case of OEM systems, I would expect Intel to continue selling Comet Lake in that space. Smaller dice, better margins. Rocket Lake has a fairly limited selection of SKUs.

@Asterox

If Intel is actually right about Rocket Lake-S being 19% faster than Comet Lake-S, the 11900k should be only ~5% slower than the 10900k in MT scenarios. It should be real close. If not . . .

As we see, i9 10900K is faster/CPU multithread in all test presented in this "preview".

Intel Core i9-11900K 8 Core Rocket Lake Flagship CPU Benchmarked at 5.2 GHz, Faster Than Core i9-10900K In Single-Core But Slower in Gaming & Multi-Threaded Apps

The Intel Core i9-11900K flagship Rocket Lake CPU has been compared to the Core i9-10900K with a 5.2 GHz overclock in various benchmarks.

wccftech.com

V-RAY, 11%
Cinebench R15, 12%
Cinebench R20, 12%
Cinebench R23, 17%
X264, 7%
CPU-Z, 12%
Time Spy Extreme, 13%
Fire Strike Ultra, 6%

 

[naukkis]

If Intel is actually right about Rocket Lake-S being 19% faster than Comet Lake-S, the 11900k should be only ~5% slower than the 10900k in MT scenarios. It should be real close. If not . . .

Intel said up to 19% faster, so that 19% in exception and average IPC uplift is much less.

And for multithreaded performance to be equal Intel also needs to clock those 8 cove cores to same clock frequency as those 10 Skylake cores. At least at stock TDP levels that isn't happening, RocketLake base frequencies are low. 65W 11900 has full 1Ghz lower base frequency vs 65w 10900.

 

[jpiniero]

65W 11900 has full 1Ghz lower base frequency vs 65w 10900.

That's not true but it is decently lower. Base is 2.5 versus 2.9 of the 10700.

 

[DrMrLordX]

As we see, i9 10900K is faster/CPU multithread in all test presented in this "preview".

Granted, this data is early, and it's taking place at equal clockspeeds between the 10900k and the 11900k. The 11900k might have sustained clocks lower than the 10900k which is not going to help its performance in long-term MT tasks (assuming the motherboard behaves itself and properly enforces tau values).

Intel said up to 19% faster, so that 19% in exception and average IPC uplift is much less.

19% faster in what though? It's not helpful for the public when Intel use slanguage like "up to" when what people are looking for is a range or an average. Most people (like me) are going to look at Intel's phraseology and assume they mean 19% overall, which would put it in line with IceLake and the expectations of many who assumed that Cypress Cove would be a direct backport of Sunny Cove to 14nm with no compromises on performance.

 

[JoeRambo]

That's not true but it is decently lower. Base is 2.5 versus 2.9 of the 10700.

Could base be impacted by AVX512 workload clocks?

 

[Kocicak]

When Intel went in all the trouble (and expense) of backporting the CPUS to the good old process, they clearly want to sell some. If the best 8 core (10700K) now sells for 380 USD, the next best 8 core improved in average by 10% should sell max. for 420. Discount that for worse performance per watt, discount that again to sell some, and what do you arrive at? 330?
300? They probably could sell some for 300.

 

[jpiniero]

When Intel went in all the trouble (and expense) of backporting the CPUS to the good old process, they clearly want to sell some. If the best 8 core (10700K) now sells for 380 USD, the next best 8 core improved in average by 10% should sell max. for 420. Discount that for worse performance per watt, discount that again to sell some, and what do you arrive at? 330?
300? They probably could sell some for 300.

If I had to guess I would say the official MSRP is going to be $399 for the 11700K. Gotta make up for the decline of the dollar, right?

 

[Hulk]

If I had to guess I would say the official MSRP is going to be $399 for the 11700K. Gotta make up for the decline of the dollar, right?

I think $399 for the 11700K is a good prediction and a reasonable price point at the high end.

 

[shady28]

Well while the AMD fans focus on the "leak" that tells them what they want to hear, here is a reminder.

In this comparison the 5800X and the 11700K appear to be clock locked at just under 5Ghz according to the .gb5

That is among the fastest 5800X scores I can find, most 5800X score a solid 10% lower. And it is losing to the pre-prod 11700K.






5800X GB5 file :

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5960362.gb5

11700K GB5 File :

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/5571984.gb5

 

[ondma]

The leaks are all over the place. That leak showing RL slower than CL in gaming has popped up on several sites, but it seem be be from the same source. Real data will probably come in somewhere between the no gain in that leak and others showing nearly 20%.