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Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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Thunder 57

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2007
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we really just need people to stop entertaining these kind of posters. I put that one on ignore months ago but still have to sift through other user's long back and forth arguments with them in these threads
Put him on ignore and all this 'AMD Fan' stuff magically disappears.
I've never used an "ignore list". I want to see commentary, no matter who stupid or biased it is. That may be something I should consider changing. But yea there are plenty of buffoons here and apparently calling people a "troll" is now tolerated.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,192
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Good lord, these prices will be ridiculous if accurate:


ASUS Strix Z490 Mobos are around 200-230 € around here (looks similar in USD). In comparison Z590 ROG Strix starts at $400, TUF at ~$300 (which has become the "value" brand), PRIME ATX versions are $250+.

And, no this isn't because of PCIe 4.0. B550 offers the same amout of lanes from CPU to SSD and GPU, yet it can be had for as low as 170€ here (and probably same for USD).

As you can also run Rocket Lake ini Z470, it really makes me wonder who is going to buy most of these MOBOs that offer very little more for most users, yet cost $100+ more?
 

Executor_

Junior Member
Mar 4, 2010
15
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66
Alder Lake is switching to a non-inclusive cache design, which supposedly is optimized for server workloads, ie. completely independent threads that don't share data. Any idea what performance impact this will have on games? And what kind of cache design does Ryzen use?
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
8,886
1,628
126
Good lord, these prices will be ridiculous if accurate:


ASUS Strix Z490 Mobos are around 200-230 € around here (looks similar in USD). In comparison Z590 ROG Strix starts at $400, TUF at ~$300 (which has become the "value" brand), PRIME ATX versions are $250+.

And, no this isn't because of PCIe 4.0. B550 offers the same amout of lanes from CPU to SSD and GPU, yet it can be had for as low as 170€ here (and probably same for USD).

As you can also run Rocket Lake ini Z470, it really makes me wonder who is going to buy most of these MOBOs that offer very little more for most users, yet cost $100+ more?
Newegg has a couple boards available for preorder. It is cheaper than those MSRP's but is still pricey.

Release date is as early as tomorrow.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
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The new ADL-S entry on Sisoft is interesting, it's the first DDR5 entry afaik. Base clock 400 Mhz higher than the entry on Geekbench and the iGPU clock of 1.5 Ghz is remarkable for an ES 0000, it's 150 Mhz faster than the fastest TGL-U/TGL-H35/RKL-S iGPU. They are aiming for higher GPU clocks which is expected because of the unchanged EU count.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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Alder Lake is switching to a non-inclusive cache design, which supposedly is optimized for server workloads, ie. completely independent threads that don't share data. Any idea what performance impact this will have on games? And what kind of cache design does Ryzen use?
That doesn't make much sense. Intel split their consumer and server/workstation cores some time ago, including going with divergent cache designs. I can see having a Golden Cove variant for Sapphire or Granite Rapids with exclusive or semi-inclusive cache design at the L2 and L3 level, but for Alder Lake-S or -P? No.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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That doesn't make much sense. Intel split their consumer and server/workstation cores some time ago, including going with divergent cache designs. I can see having a Golden Cove variant for Sapphire or Granite Rapids with exclusive or semi-inclusive cache design at the L2 and L3 level, but for Alder Lake-S or -P? No.
That's how Tiger Lake is.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,888
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That's how Tiger Lake is.
Hmm. You raise an interesting point, though I wouldn't call that being "optimized for server workloads" per se. Tiger Lake actually got some performance gains in consumer-class workloads from cache restructuring. It also suffered some performance regression.
 

Gideon

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2007
1,192
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Alder Lake is switching to a non-inclusive cache design, which supposedly is optimized for server workloads, ie. completely independent threads that don't share data. Any idea what performance impact this will have on games? And what kind of cache design does Ryzen use?
Details are sparse, but Zen's L3 cache is not inclusive (only contains tags). All in all, probably quite similar to Tiger Lake
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
8,886
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Hmm. You raise an interesting point, though I wouldn't call that being "optimized for server workloads" per se. Tiger Lake actually got some performance gains in consumer-class workloads from cache restructuring. It also suffered some performance regression.
My point is that Alder Lake appears to have the same cache system as Tiger Lake. 1.25 MB L2 per core/cluster and 3 MB L3 per core/cluster and presumably non-inclusive.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
22,624
911
126
Good lord, these prices will be ridiculous if accurate:
Tariffs (essentially a sales tax) on goods such as motherboards went up 25% after Dec 31, 2020.




Just be glad to know that China is paying for this. How, I'm not sure yet. But, somehow, it isn't us paying for the higher prices.
 

lightmanek

Senior member
Feb 19, 2017
275
502
136
...

Just be glad to know that China is paying for this. How, I'm not sure yet. But, somehow, it isn't us paying for the higher prices.
I guess, they will pay the same way as Mexico for the wall ...

Anyway, either board makers are trying to make extra buck or two on these new boards or they are expecting lower volumes and have to build in higher profits to recoup RND.
 

nerp

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2005
9,834
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Yeah, these prices are stupid. The newer version of my MSI carbon board is $80 more and the only improvement is a third M2 slot, and it looks tacky and ugly as well. There is no reason to buy it over the Z490 one.
Pretty much. If a z490 board doesn't take advantage of PCIe 4 nvme, not a real problem for gaming right now. And unlikely to be worth caring about until DDR5 is the new standard, anyway. People who got good deals on z490 with i3s and i5s with the intention of tossing in a rocket lake chip this year are in a decent place.
 

CP5670

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2004
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Many of the Z490 boards even support PCIE 4 with the new CPUs, and advertise that as a feature. The new CPUs are a worthwhile upgrade over the lower end Comet Lakes, but I think they are too little of an improvement over the 10700K or 10900K.
 

Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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GB score is borked, but the ST clocks are nice for the bottom end i5. For me RKL-S is looking good in terms of IPC and clocks, now comes the delicate part of pricing/availability. Early Z590 prices are not a good sign, but then again let's see how the B chipset boards fare, now that we have the memory oc option available.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
16,888
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My point is that Alder Lake appears to have the same cache system as Tiger Lake. 1.25 MB L2 per core/cluster and 3 MB L3 per core/cluster and presumably non-inclusive.
@Executor_ was saying the Alder Lake cache design would be "server oriented", which is not really the case with Tiger Lake.

Just be glad to know that China is paying for this. How, I'm not sure yet. But, somehow, it isn't us paying for the higher prices.
China just winds up selling less stuff.
 

Asterox

Senior member
May 15, 2012
455
627
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GB score is borked, but the ST clocks are nice for the bottom end i5. For me RKL-S is looking good in terms of IPC and clocks, now comes the delicate part of pricing/availability. Early Z590 prices are not a good sign, but then again let's see how the B chipset boards fare, now that we have the memory oc option available.
Even wrinkled GB shows that for example R5 2600 is slower CPU.We all now that is slower(average score), even GB see that.


So what is going with that 6/12 Rocket Lake, hm it cant be same as R5 3600.If is priced very good ok, but that ST score is to low for Rocket Lake IPC/4.4ghz singlecore boost.
 
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lobz

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2017
1,568
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It does not have a different cache configuration. What on earth gave you that idea?
I realize you meant backport of sunny cove. The goal post for a whole year here was that RKL would be a straight backport of willow cove, no matter how unfeasible that would have been on 14nm.

I misunderstood your comment, so I apologize.
 
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naukkis

Senior member
Jun 5, 2002
405
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I realize you meant backport of sunny cove. The goal post for a whole year here was that RKL would be a straight backport of willow cove, no matter how unfeasible that would have been on 14nm.
And that's because Intel engineers said that Sunny Cove can't be backported to 14nm.
 

Hulk

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,888
271
126
In light of Ian's recent Comet Lake TDP article I have a question. Are the power numbers he is reporting the CPU package or total system power at the wall?

I really like my Seasonic 400W fanless power supply but if I go Rocket Lake I might have a problem if those numbers are just the CPU package...
 

Abwx

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2011
9,145
936
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In light of Ian's recent Comet Lake TDP article I have a question. Are the power numbers he is reporting the CPU package or total system power at the wall?

I really like my Seasonic 400W fanless power supply but if I go Rocket Lake I might have a problem if those numbers are just the CPU package...
Package power, it s mentionned in the article.

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16343/Power-Agi_575px.png
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
4,175
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In light of Ian's recent Comet Lake TDP article I have a question. Are the power numbers he is reporting the CPU package or total system power at the wall?
It's CPU package power, why do you think some of us were giving Intel the full flak treatment for?

I really like my Seasonic 400W fanless power supply but if I go Rocket Lake I might have a problem if those numbers are just the CPU package...
You are not the type of user who will have any problem keeping power usage under control. It's just a matter of entering BIOS and changing a few power settings to ensure the motherboard adheres to stock TDP or whatever power usage profile you want.

And just so it's perfectly clear: this is an issue related to stock motherboard settings, not stock CPU settings. Here's 4 different Z490 mITX boards running the same 10900K:

z490.png

Two of them obey the stock Intel spec of 125W PL1 and limited time 225W PL2, while the other two don't give a flying flak about any of it and go full throttle.

Using RKL S with a 400W power supply (of great quality such as that Seasonic) is perfectly doable as long as you set both PL1 and PL2 to values that make sense. In the case of your system, if you're no using a dGPU, you'll just limit power to keep thermals in check. Something like 125W PL1 and 150W PL2 with a 30-60 second window should be just fine. (if you're using a smaller air cooler than just go 25W-35W lower on both settings)
 

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