Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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Shivansps

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Sep 11, 2013
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Cant find the article, but I did see a post with supposed GB5 results for Rocket Lake a couple of days ago. Didnt mention any time frame, but apparently Rocket Lake is still coming.
Actually, a higher TDP version of 8 core TL would seem to me to be a better option, but yield is probably still to low to bring out both mobile and desktop products.
Rocket Lake is 14nm, they backported it.
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
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Rocket Lake is 14nm, they backported it.
Yes, I know that. I was just saying that if yields were sufficient, a desktop Tiger Lake would probably be more attractive. I hope RL can maintain close to Comet Lake clocks and Tiger Lake IPC. But who knows what will happen with a backport.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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TGL-U goes up to 4.8 Ghz which means 5.0 Ghz is expected for TGL-H. Obviously the all core turbo is limited to the power usage and cooling. I refer to the clock speed capability of a core. AMD is quite limited in comparison.

Yeah that's what I thought. All-core is probably going to go down vs. the 4c parts.

Which doesn't matter for the H parts, all of them will be bundled with a dGPU.

It does to @Shivansps which is why he's even discussing this in the first place.

I think it is a mistake not to care when Intel that never cared is giving it priority.

That's the rub. Is Intel doing it because they're "giving it priority" or is it because it's the only core config they can produce that yields acceptably? Is it a power issue with the Willow Cove cores? You aren't considering the "Intel is screwing something up and hiding it with an iGPU" angle.

Is Tiger lake H the successor to comet lake?

It certainly looks like it should be, but we have Rocket instead on desktop. Rocket Lake-U is apparently cancelled. One would assume that TigerLake-H killed it.

So now it is you who decides what is relevant? Maybe you should let, you know, the marketplace decide, because that is the ultimate goal, to sell product.

Since you're going to ask such an absurd question, then: yes

Or you can stop being clanish and contemplate how the semiconductor market operates and how periods of a year (or less) can have a major impact on how a product is received by the market. As I already articulated, the market was waiting for Intel to knock Renoir completely off its horse, and the product that would have made that happen, today, didn't appear.
 

ondma

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Yeah that's what I thought. All-core is probably going to go down vs. the 4c parts.



It does to @Shivansps which is why he's even discussing this in the first place.



That's the rub. Is Intel doing it because they're "giving it priority" or is it because it's the only core config they can produce that yields acceptably? Is it a power issue with the Willow Cove cores? You aren't considering the "Intel is screwing something up and hiding it with an iGPU" angle.



It certainly looks like it should be, but we have Rocket instead on desktop. Rocket Lake-U is apparently cancelled. One would assume that TigerLake-H killed it.



Since you're going to ask such an absurd question, then: yes

Or you can stop being clanish and contemplate how the semiconductor market operates and how periods of a year (or less) can have a major impact on how a product is received by the market. As I already articulated, the market was waiting for Intel to knock Renoir completely off its horse, and the product that would have made that happen, today, didn't appear.
Well, you are an authority in your own mind, at least.
 

DrMrLordX

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Apr 27, 2000
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Well, you are an authority in your own mind, at least.

Yay ad hominem! Meanwhile:


Are you noticing something here? TigerLake didn't beat Renoir in everything, and they talked it up so much that it seems almost as if they're selling AMD's admittedly-old Renoir product for them. And I'm not the first person to point that out.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
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Yay ad hominem! Meanwhile:
If you want to go into fallacies, you committed the "begging the claim" fallacy to start the debate:
DrMrLordX said:
Intel can't/won't even yield more than 4c parts on 10SF.
If your assumption is correct that Intel can't do it, then of course you are correct. But, you have yet to prove your assumption nor did you properly disprove the alternative to that assumption (they can and will do more than 4 cores). You essentially made a variant of "Assume I am correct, therefore, I am correct."

If you start an argument with a logical fallacy, it won't go well on the internet.
 
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mikk

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May 15, 2012
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It is not the same state as it used to be in either direction. In no case is a G7 configuration a clear knockout in performance as compared to the 4800u, and that's allowing for the fact that the demonstration platform has the twp turned all the way open on the TDP profile. At best, the 96EU G7 config is slightly better than the 8CU VEGA config in Renoir. There are precious few cases that a game is playable on one and not on the other with the same resolution and detail setup.


I'm not sure about this. At 28W Tigerlake wins basically all gaming tests and in quite a few with a good margin. And this all with early drivers while Vega has been optimized from game and driver devs since several years. Also keep in mind the relevant comparison in the market is Ryzen 4700U against i7-1165G7, the gap should be even bigger there. 4700U is losing 1 CU and 150 Mhz GPU clock, i7-1165G7 is losing only 50 Mhz GPU clock.


08-trine-4-blueberry-clkdu.png
 
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Thibsie

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Apr 25, 2017
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The 28w really running at 28W?
'cos it seems intel took a lot of liberty in that 28W sticker.
 

piokos

Senior member
Nov 2, 2018
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TigerLake-H has a smaller/weaker iGPU than TigerLake-U.
Yes, they're assuming these CPUs will be used with a dGPU anyway. And the rare SoC-only laptops will be aimed at business users, not gamers.
You probably don't agree with this - l guess because we're absolutely surrounded by casual gaming laptops with -H SoCs. ;)
The 28w really running at 28W?
'cos it seems intel took a lot of liberty in that 28W sticker.
TDP is TDP. We all know it'll boost higher. AMD does that as well.

In the end it's a laptop SoC. Performance (and power consumption) will vary from one laptop model to another. You don't buy a processor. You buy a device.
 

Panino Manino

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Jan 28, 2017
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I'm not sure about this. At 28W Tigerlake wins basically all gaming tests and in quite a few with a good margin. And this all with early drivers while Vega has been optimized from game and driver devs since several years. Also keep in mind the relevant comparison in the market is Ryzen 4700U against i7-1165G7, the gap should be even bigger there. 4700U is losing 1 CU and 150 Mhz GPU clock, i7-1165G7 is losing only 50 Mhz GPU clock.


08-trine-4-blueberry-clkdu.png

All these reference designs are working with LPDDR4X-4266, right?
We know that the RAM speed makes a lot of difference for IGP. Isn't possible that the gap is much lower when Renoir is paired with equal memory?

But again, the Intel IGP don't really need to be faster than AMD's, just fast enough to play games. If you can still play your games even if it's slower than the competition, why care if AMD IGP is better? That is the danger for AMD IMO.
 
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DrMrLordX

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If you want to go into fallacies, you committed the "begging the claim" fallacy to start the debate:

No I didn't. I said Intel CAN'T yield more than 4c on 10SF or they WON'T because (for some odd reason) they see no reason to do so.

It's one or the other.

We don't know.

That's what can't/won't means.

Yes, they're assuming these CPUs will be used with a dGPU anyway.

I know. Tell that to the guy who was (apparently) assuming that Intel would have the top-tier mobile CPU + mobile iGPU in TigerLake-H. I was telling him that they won't.
 
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Shivansps

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It does to @Shivansps which is why he's even discussing this in the first place.

Yes but you need to understand something, there is a point (in price) where IGP perf becomes worthless.

The people using IGPs are casuals, people buying notebooks not for specific use. How many of these people need an 8C? The people looking to do real gaming or work they go for a model with a dGPU. The 8C models whiout a dGPU are usefull, but i dont think thats where most of the people looking for IGP perf (best overall perf for the price in market) goes.
Now, ill need to see notebook prices first before saying more. If the pricing is right, Intel idea of using TGL-U for casuals and TGL-H+dGPU for work/gaming performance is OK. AMD does the same thing actually, but they also offered the 6C/8C U.

This is the same ive mentioned about the 4750G at +300 being DOA in desktop, an APU that is more expensive than a 3600+RX570? yeah good luck with that.
 
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DrMrLordX

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Yes but you need to understand something, there is a point (in price) where IGP perf becomes worthless.

Price isn't the only factor. OEMs like to use cheap cooling solutions, and spreading out power dissipation between seperate packages (CPU, dGPU) helps them keep BoM down in some cases. But I am glad you are beginning to see that TigerLake will defeat Renoir in iGPU (4c, at least in configs not restricted to 15W) or CPU (8c), but not both at the same time.
 
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uzzi38

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Yes but you need to understand something, there is a point (in price) where IGP perf becomes worthless.

The people using IGPs are casuals, people buying notebooks not for specific use. How many of these people need an 8C? The people looking to do real gaming or work they go for a model with a dGPU. The 8C models whiout a dGPU are usefull, but i dont think thats where most of the people looking for IGP perf (best overall perf for the price in market) goes.
Now, ill need to see notebook prices first before saying more. If the pricing is right, Intel idea of using TGL-U for casuals and TGL-H+dGPU for work/gaming performance is OK. AMD does the same thing actually, but they also offered the 6C/8C U.

This is the same ive mentioned about the 4750G at +300 being DOA in desktop, an APU that is more expensive than a 3600+RX570? yeah good luck with that.
Renoir is not coming to DIY. Ever.

AMD are "exploring other options" for the DIY market.
 
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LightningZ71

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Which SKU matches up with which other SKU is going to be more of a matter of pricing. I will grant that the 4800u is nearly mythical with how rare it is in the US market, so the 4700u is probably more appropriate. However, it's also more likely that the i5, 80eu part will be more price competitive with the 4700u.
 
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IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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All these reference designs are working with LPDDR4X-4266, right?
We know that the RAM speed makes a lot of difference for IGP. Isn't possible that the gap is much lower when Renoir is paired with equal memory?

The benchmark above only shows 10% gain for Renoir using LPDDR4x, while Tigerlake is a further 50% faster.

The difference in that game is just playable versus very fluid.

Remember that Xe is running on very early drivers... you are not going to see consumers products running these drivers.

Icelake didn't seem faster on production drivers.

But with Tigerlake its going to have much easier game specific updates, and while ago Intel allowed using Intel drivers over OEM drivers months ago. The drivers are also coming with a feature where shaders are optimized automatically on a per-game basis.

We shall see.
 
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dullard

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No I didn't. I said Intel CAN'T yield more than 4c on 10SF or they WON'T because (for some odd reason) they see no reason to do so.

It's one or the other.

We don't know.

That's what can't/won't means.
From Intel on 10 nm SuperFin: https://medium.com/intel-tech/11th-...-new-architectural-breakthroughs-b552fc77dce0
A single core workload has access to 12MB of LLC in the 4-core die or up to 24MB in the 8-core die configuration (more detail on 8-core products at a later date).
So, you interpret this quote as they can't and/or won't?

Your other point is valid (that 8 core might come too late). I'm not arguing that. I'm simply wanting to see your proof that they can't or that they won't.
 
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piokos

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Nov 2, 2018
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Icelake didn't seem faster on production drivers.
Ice Lake is using the tried and tested Intel HD GPU.
Xe is a different beast.
Which SKU matches up with which other SKU is going to be more of a matter of pricing. I will grant that the 4800u is nearly mythical with how rare it is in the US market, so the 4700u is probably more appropriate. However, it's also more likely that the i5, 80eu part will be more price competitive with the 4700u.
I really though it's a common conclusion that 4800U exists only to get that slightly higher bar in review comparisons.

Even if it becomes easily available, it's so late they should call it Renoir Refresh.

Given that AMD is finally getting some traction in laptops and Tiger Lake threat is around the corner, I have to say... I expected them to surprise us with a Zen3 mobile announcement this October - together with the desktop parts (if not instead of them).
 

teejee

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Jul 4, 2013
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Ice Lake is using the tried and tested Intel HD GPU.
Xe is a different beast.

I really though it's a common conclusion that 4800U exists only to get that slightly higher bar in review comparisons.

Even if it becomes easily available, it's so late they should call it Renoir Refresh.

Given that AMD is finally getting some traction in laptops and Tiger Lake threat is around the corner, I have to say... I expected them to surprise us with a Zen3 mobile announcement this October - together with the desktop parts (if not instead of them).

AMD has a good line-up of laptops APU's that sells very well today and will continue to sell well since Renoir has gotten such great reputation. The last thing they should do is to mess this up by sudden changes that causes problems for the OEM's. This is not a "DYI-market competition".

Success among OEM's requires stability in the roadmap (among other things).
 

blckgrffn

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Isn't the question mark here, to some degree, Intel's ability to delivery TGL in volume? Can they even make enough chips so that we see this in every Thinkpad, Inspiron, etc. that it should be in?

Hunting for Ice Lake vs Comet Lake based laptops was rather infuriating based on their naming convention and it really soured me on it when I was helping folks find their college bound kids laptops this spring/summer.
 

eek2121

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Tiger Lake H and Rocket Lake are both rumored to be launching in March.

EDIT: I wonder if Tiger Lake H was delayed due to Rocket Lake being delayed? As I mentioned earlier, it would be rather embarrassing for Intel to have mobile chips that beat the pants off their desktop counterparts.
 
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eek2121

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Isn't the question mark here, to some degree, Intel's ability to delivery TGL in volume? Can they even make enough chips so that we see this in every Thinkpad, Inspiron, etc. that it should be in?

Hunting for Ice Lake vs Comet Lake based laptops was rather infuriating based on their naming convention and it really soured me on it when I was helping folks find their college bound kids laptops this spring/summer.

I don't think Intel has yield issues. I think they have capacity issues. Most of their capacity is 14nm. They HAD yield issues in the past, but I suspect the changes to 10nm fixed that. I also suspect that the "6 month" 7nm delay was so that Intel could port those changes to 7nm.
 

blckgrffn

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I don't think Intel has yield issues. I think they have capacity issues. Most of their capacity is 14nm. They HAD yield issues in the past, but I suspect the changes to 10nm fixed that. I also suspect that the "6 month" 7nm delay was so that Intel could port those changes to 7nm.

Well that’s what I was saying. I thought they really pushed out building more 10nm capacity since it went so poorly. Either way, if they can’t deliver enough for the market that’s an opening long term for competition, whether that’s AMD or ARM.
 

eek2121

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Well that’s what I was saying. I thought they really pushed out building more 10nm capacity since it went so poorly. Either way, if they can’t deliver enough for the market that’s an opening long term for competition, whether that’s AMD or ARM.
Until they have good yields, it makes no sense to build out additional capacity. What if you have to rebuild half the system to fix a problem? No. I'm confident they finally fixed the issue late last year or early this year. Now it's time for a ramp. They are behind TSMC, but you know what is scary? I think they will gain significant ground in the next 2 years. If TSMC screws up once, Intel may overtake them. That doesn't matter much to TSMC, but it matters to AMD. AMD derives quite a bit of it's multicore performance from a better process. If Intel ties them on process...well then AMD is in trouble.

I hope they gain just enough ground to put AMD on edge, but not enough ground to put AMD on "the" edge. I don't think AMD will recover if they suffer another bulldozer or phenom.