Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread

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exquisitechar

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Apr 18, 2017
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The minute Stilt retests everything there with sunny cove included, I believe the 18% you're imagining. Till then your word on this is worth exactly as much as Intel's marketing team's, also known as the tooth fairy's word.
Multiple reviews have backed up Intel's 18% claim, IIRC. That's not the issue here, though. Just because Ice Lake has an average 18% IPC increase in one set of benchmarks doesn't mean it will have an 18% increase in others. Maybe it will be more, maybe it will be less, but you can't take the 18% increase and apply it across the board. So yes, until The Stilt tests Ice Lake, I agree that such claims shouldn't be made.

I also have a few issues issues with The Stilt's suite, to be honest. It's certainly not the be-all and end-all Skylake/Zen 2 IPC comparison to me.
 

mikk

Diamond Member
May 15, 2012
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The minute Stilt retests everything there with sunny cove included, I believe the 18% you're imagining. Till then your word on this is worth exactly as much as Intel's marketing team's, also known as the tooth fairy's word.

In this case I hope he retests AMD with a mobile variant as well because mobile is slower. It won't be easy, he also should make sure both gets the same DDR4 with the same timings etc, mobile DDR4 has much worse latency.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
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In this case I hope he retests AMD with a mobile variant as well because mobile is slower. It won't be easy, he also should make sure both gets the same DDR4 with the same timings etc, mobile DDR4 has much worse latency.

This is getting stupid. In other phaces people were claiming +6% to intel just because skylake-x with it's quad channel memory was extremely skewed by synthetics like 3dpm and linpack. At some point this desire to find a single metric that attempts to distill a diversity of factors is useless.

The above argument is the inverse of that.
 

RetroZombie

Senior member
Nov 5, 2019
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No, Zen2 is equally to Skylake when it comes to IPC, you can see it here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-amd-cpus/1728758-strictly-technical-matisse-not-really.html

Maybe Zen2 has a small avantage in applications but Skylake also has a small advantage in games which overclock didn't even test.

Well it’s interesting the IPC claims, in what application where they measured in order to claim your point? (The point being that Intel has higher IPC than AMD?)

Some links, that show zen1 being faster than skylake in many tests:
Zen vs Skylake, the first TRUE IPC test pt 1
Zen vs Skylake, the first TRUE IPC test pt 2

Is it possible to measure IPC these days? And how, by using the same:
  • Architecture? For example even the exact same core (Skylake vs SkylakeX) already gives you different results.
  • Memory bandwidth?
  • Memory channels?
  • Clock speed?
  • L3 cache?
  • L2 cache?
  • Compiler?
  • Platforms?
  • Instruction sets on both or AVX on one and AVX512 on the other?
Imagine I have 10GB of information to archive, I can use 7zip, winzip, winrar, izarc, peazip, bandizip, … to achieve the exact same task/result that being compress the information. 7zip will do it in 2 minutes and the worst app will do it at 3 minutes, so 7zip being 50% faster (or if you prefer the slower application will run it 33,3% slower).
Now would you say that 7zip have 50% higher IPC than the slower app?
(Remember that I’m using the exact same system, exact same task, and getting different performance results)
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
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Mobile vs desktop is fine for you? Exactly this is stupid.

Edit: better to put it this way.

No. I would not compare anything where niche options or segmentation is tuned as such.
 
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Ottonomous

Senior member
May 15, 2014
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That's about right. Anandtech measured around 10% difference so AMD needs 15-20% with Zen3 to get above Willow Cove which should be achievable given the latest Forrest Norrod comments and leaks.
Aren't most of the those improvements in SPECint/SPECfps? Ian says it's due to the massively improved branch prediction and L2 cache, would that translate similarly across all other applications?
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
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Actually gaming IPC is all that matters, we still have to see where Ice and Tiger fit in that department. J/K.
Skylake is equal or even a couple of percent faster in most games than Zen (at equal clocks), not to mention the clockspeed advantage. I am sure the AMD fans can scour the benchmarks and find a few exceptions, but overall, intel is at least as fast. It would be interesting to see how Ice Lake compares IPC wise in gaming, but it is kind of a moot point since the core count and clockspeed are both far to low for a desktop gaming chip.
 

Thunder 57

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Aug 19, 2007
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Skylake is equal or even a couple of percent faster in most games than Zen (at equal clocks), not to mention the clockspeed advantage. I am sure the AMD fans can scour the benchmarks and find a few exceptions, but overall, intel is at least as fast. It would be interesting to see how Ice Lake compares IPC wise in gaming, but it is kind of a moot point since the core count and clockspeed are both far to low for a desktop gaming chip.

Well that is Intel's strength. Most other applications favor Zen 2 vs Skylake. I would like to see a high TDP Ice Lake so we can get a better comparison of the high end today. Guess we'll have to wait until CES before we get any real news/updates. Looks like Intel/AMD both had about an hour each scheduled there.
 

Ottonomous

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May 15, 2014
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Skylake is equal or even a couple of percent faster in most games than Zen (at equal clocks), not to mention the clockspeed advantage. I am sure the AMD fans can scour the benchmarks and find a few exceptions, but overall, intel is at least as fast. It would be interesting to see how Ice Lake compares IPC wise in gaming, but it is kind of a moot point since the core count and clockspeed are both far to low for a desktop gaming chip.
Before or after mitigation patches, non-gaming applications included?
 

IntelUser2000

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Oct 14, 2003
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The minute Stilt retests everything there with sunny cove included, I believe the 18% you're imagining. Till then your word on this is worth exactly as much as Intel's marketing team's, also known as the tooth fairy's word.
No, Zen2 is equally to Skylake when it comes to IPC, you can see it here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-amd-cpus/1728758-strictly-technical-matisse-not-really.html

Maybe Zen2 has a small avantage in applications but Skylake also has a small advantage in games which overclock didn't even test.

Let me explain why both of you are right.

Stilt is doing testing that's entirely single threaded. Due to the architectural choices between AMD and Intel, SMT gains are better on AMD.

So in strictly single threaded mode, they can be equal, yet at the same AMD is being faster per thread.

Also regarding AT's SpecCPU 2017 testing suite, annoyingly they are running the _Rate suite set at 1 rather than just running the one meant for single thread, which is the Integer/FP speed suite. But with SpecCPU 2006 suite they are running the Speed suite.

Like, what are they doing?

According to AT's Spec tests, Icelake is 30%+ faster than Whiskeylake, not 18%. Intel's choice of being so exact with gains are strange. Why not just say 15-20%? 18%? Are you sure its not 17.9995%? :rolleyes:

Let's also call it performance per clock, not "IPC". I'm sick of this term. People get extremely confused and start arguing about stupid things. Like they say its per cycles and it performs different in reality.

No, its called performance per clock.
 
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ondma

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Before or after mitigation patches, non-gaming applications included?
Did you read my post? I was specifically talking about gaming and clearly stated so. The security mitigations have little if any effect on gaming.
 

Gideon

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Nov 27, 2007
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Did you read my post? I was specifically talking about gaming and clearly stated so. The security mitigations have little if any effect on gaming.
That magical better gaming IPC is mostly down to memory latency. Why AMD wins in applications is mostly caches (not only size but also better bandwidth).

In applications the IPC absolutely isn't equal. 3700x is within s few precent of 9900K (and 3800x surprasses it) in most multithreaded production loads, despite 10% lower clocks. Just look at pudget adobe benches, any encoding/rendering benches.

Zen3 will be much better in gaming because of it's unified cache (should be nearly as big a jump as zen2) if they also manage to improve memory latency a little ...
 

DrMrLordX

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Apr 27, 2000
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@Kaloi48

Hmmm okay. So he seems to think that Rocket Lake has not Sunny Cove but Willow Cove cores? No wonder they're going to restrict it to 8c parts.
 

mikk

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May 15, 2012
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Sharkbay said he was sorry that there was an error in the spec he posted.
Rocket Lake has AVX-512 support instead of AVX2.

https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1575216141.A.FF7.html
View attachment 13878


Ok this confirms it's a new architecture, Sunny Cove or Willow Cove. Most likely Willow Cove because of the Gen12 graphics and sharkbay itself says it's Tigerlake without iTBT. So as expected I would say, even the AVX256 leak was strange with only 8 cores (if it was Skylake based).
 

beginner99

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Jun 2, 2009
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No wonder they're going to restrict it to 8c parts.

Yeah teh fact it was 8-core only made me think it certainly isn't skylake core and since at that event about a year ago the specifically mentioned that a "feature" of Willow cove is being process decoupled so yeah best bet is willow cove.
 

Zucker2k

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Feb 15, 2006
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That magical better gaming IPC is mostly down to memory latency. Why AMD wins in applications is mostly caches (not only size but also better bandwidth).

In applications the IPC absolutely isn't equal. 3700x is within s few precent of 9900K (and 3800x surprasses it) in most multithreaded production loads, despite 10% lower clocks. Just look at pudget adobe benches, any encoding/rendering benches.

Zen3 will be much better in gaming because of it's unified cache (should be nearly as big a jump as zen2) if they also manage to improve memory latency a little ...
It's basically what @IntelUser2000 said: You test IPC by running single-threaded tests. You can run a separate SMT-enabled test if you so desire. The performance advantage AMD has over Intel at the moment stems from dedicating more resources to SMT, however, Intel negates those advantages with clock frequency.* SMT is only useful in highly threaded parallel loads, which gaming is not, and this is why Intel shines in gaming despite losing in highly threaded loads; ringbus included. SMT-less 9700k is a great example of this. A 9900k with SMT disabled, is even faster in gaming.

* A performance per core test (whether that core has SMT or not, must not be done at a catch-clock (so to speak). It must be done at default clocks simply because of the fact that operational fmax is already baked into the design of a chip. Mainly due to power constraints, chip designers must carve a balance between frequency and ipc. If you bump ipc by making it wider, it'll be hard to reach target frequencies, and at the same power envelope. This is why I sneer at all those tests done at the same clocks. There are also questions of optimal frequencies for a given chip, especially when one takes into account such things as cache and memory subsystems. In view of this, Zen 2 may well be still behind Skylake in single threaded (default clocks) tests as a measure of a chip's true real world performance, where ipc is treated as ipc x frequency. After all, no chip is going to run at ipc x 1, but rather ipc x n, where n is the optimal frequency the chip manufacturer has designed them to run in order to achieve a certain performance at a certain power envelope.
 
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mikk

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Yeah teh fact it was 8-core only made me think it certainly isn't skylake core and since at that event about a year ago the specifically mentioned that a "feature" of Willow cove is being process decoupled so yeah best bet is willow cove.


Yes and Tigerlake-S was obviously planned for 8+1 even for 10nm. This is a 14nm port from the 10nm version.

ITGL_LP_1x2x16_DESK_65W_DEVICE_F0_ID 0x9A68 // Desktop - S81 - 35W/65W/95W
 
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uzzi38

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Oct 16, 2019
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Sharkbay said he was sorry that there was an error in the spec he posted.
Rocket Lake has AVX-512 support instead of AVX2.

https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1575216141.A.FF7.html
View attachment 13878

A friend posted a full translation:

"Apologies, made mistakes copying the spec. RKL-UP3/S should be AVX-512."

"In plain language: RKL = 14nm version of TGL, minus iTBT, with weakened IGD"

"Plus changed VRM scheme to SVID."

This practically confirms a Willow Cove backport.

Intel and changing roadmaps, name a more iconic duo. Anywho, good if you enjoy housefires I guess. Will be better perf/W then Skylake sure...but either way it's going head to head vs Zen 3, so lol.
 

Zucker2k

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Feb 15, 2006
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Intel and changing roadmaps, name a more iconic duo. Anywho, good if you enjoy housefires I guess. Will be better perf/W then Skylake sure...but either way it's going head to head vs Zen 3, so lol.
Not looking good. I understand some resigned over at Intel over this back-porting issue, and it's taken them about 2-3 years to come to the same realization. On the bright side, Tigerlake brings easily 25 - 30% performance boost over Skylake so that fight with Zen 3 should be interesting at the same core-count, but then there's going to be a 16 core R9 4950x to contend with.
 

uzzi38

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I'm being kind and assuming early 2021, like how CML-S is an 'early' 2020 release.

*10 core die not included.