Indictments coming...

[UNCjigga]

Oh hai, new allegations against Manafort dropped silently tonight. I guess Gates flipped after all.

Mueller isn't charging him yet but hinted at bank fraud and "bank fraud conspiracies" in arguing against dropping Manafort's bail.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/mueller-manafort-bank-fraud-accusations-416509

 

[sactoking]

Oh hai, new allegations against Manafort dropped silently tonight. I guess Gates flipped after all.

Mueller isn't charging him yet but hinted at bank fraud and "bank fraud conspiracies" in arguing against dropping Manafort's bail.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/mueller-manafort-bank-fraud-accusations-416509

I would guess that the conspiracy would have to involve at least one accounting firm or bank official. If his income statement was doctored then some licensed or regulated professional had to help because I don't know of any bank that's going to loan almost $10mm based on an unaudited, unreviewed printout of an internal accounting system like Sage.

 

[jackstar7]

The American people should be able to sue everyone involved in this and take their wealth away from them. Don Jr and Eric could work third shift at a Wal-Mart.

Put it towards schools, healthcare, or just pay down the debt with it.

 

[rise]

Oh hai, new allegations against Manafort dropped silently tonight. I guess Gates flipped after all.

Mueller isn't charging him yet but hinted at bank fraud and "bank fraud conspiracies" in arguing against dropping Manafort's bail.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/16/mueller-manafort-bank-fraud-accusations-416509

I think they want him to wait in jail

 

[snoopy7548]

The American people should be able to sue everyone involved in this and take their wealth away from them. Don Jr and Eric could work third shift at a Wal-Mart.

Put it towards schools, healthcare, or just pay down the debt with it.

If you're directly working with a foreign entity to undermine American democracy, you deserve to be stripped of every single cent you own and tossed out on the street.

 

[cytg111]

If you're directly working with a foreign entity to undermine American democracy, you deserve to be stripped of every single cent you own and tossed out on the street.

Is that not how treason is dealt with? I think there is missing an element .. not sure though.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Is that not how treason is dealt with? I think there is missing an element .. not sure though.

Except this isn't treason. Just about anytime you want to call something treason, it isn't.

 

[ivwshane]

Except this isn't treason. Just about anytime you want to call something treason, it isn't.

I'd say obstructing an investigation into Russia meddling in our election, not implementing sanctions that were passed by Congress unanimously, firing the head of the FBI because of that "Russia thing", colluding with Russia to undermine the Democratic process, are all pretty clear cut examples of giving comfort and aid to an enemy. Russia, who did attack us, is indeed the enemy.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

I'd say obstructing an investigation into Russia meddling in our election, not implementing sanctions that were passed by Congress unanimously, firing the head of the FBI because of that "Russia thing", colluding with Russia to undermine the Democratic process, are all pretty clear cut examples of giving comfort and aid to an enemy. Russia, who did attack us, is indeed the enemy.

Can consider them an enemy. Still isn't treason. There's a reason the Rosenbergs weren't tried for treason either and they sold them state secrets.

 

[Commodus]

We shouldn't get hung up on whether or not Trump and cronies are busted on treason or treason-related charges. It's really just about seeing justice served for people who think they're above the law. Remember, Al Capone was ultimately taken down for tax evasion, not murders or other mob-related activity. It may not have been poetic justice, but the end result was the same.

 

[Greenman]

We shouldn't get hung up on whether or not Trump and cronies are busted on treason or treason-related charges. It's really just about seeing justice served for people who think they're above the law. Remember, Al Capone was ultimately taken down for tax evasion, not murders or other mob-related activity. It may not have been poetic justice, but the end result was the same.

Based on the assumption of guilt.

 

[Commodus]

Based on the assumption of guilt.

Given that Trump admitted to firing Comey to hinder the Russia investigation, it's not so much an assumption of guilt as acknowledging the obvious.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Based on the assumption of guilt.

Yea, lock her up already. Gawd

 

[rise]

Can consider them an enemy. Still isn't treason. There's a reason the Rosenbergs weren't tried for treason either and they sold them state secrets.

Am I correct in understanding that we would need to be AT war at the time or it needs to be an attempt to overthorow our go'vt?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yup, per Fox News it’s Obama's failure to stop the Russians. Fortunately Trumps special counsel found them and exposed them.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...threat-after-indictment/ar-BBJfU05?li=BBnb7Kz

 

[Jhhnn]

Yea, lock her up already. Gawd

Thanks for the chuckle. I think Trumpsters are still too caught up emotionally to understand why Putin would throw in behind Trump. It's too simple for them to get it. They did it because they saw Trump as the worst possible choice we could make for ourselves. I'm sure the FSB is highly dispassionate & extremely objective in making that determination, too. I say that simply as a matter of respect for their formidable talent & skill.

So, uhh, excuse me for asking, Trumpsters, but you're with them? How can you be with them?

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Am I correct in understanding that we would need to be AT war at the time or it needs to be an attempt to overthorow our go'vt?

Not even insurrection against their own government is considered treason. You’d need to be at war or engaged in open hostility with a foreign power. The standing opinion on the narrow definition of treason was written by Justice Field.

The term ‘enemies,’ as used in the second clause, according to its settled meaning, at the time the constitution was adopted, applies only to the subjects of a foreign power in a state of open hostility with us. It does not embrace rebels in insurrection against their own government. An enemy is always the subject of a foreign power who owes no allegiance to our government or country. We may, therefore, omit all consideration of this second clause in the constitutional definition of treason. To convict the defendants they must be brought within the first clause of the definition. They must be shown to have committed acts which amount to a levying of war against the United States. To constitute a levying of war there must be an assemblage of persons in force, to overthrow the government, or to coerce its conduct. The words embrace not only those acts by which war is brought into existence, but also those acts by which war is prosecuted. They levy war who create or carry on war. The offense is complete, whether the force be directed to the entire overthrow of the government throughout the country, or only in certain portions of the country, or to defeat the execution and compel the repeal of one of its public laws.

It’s incredibly narrow in its definition. Which is why I say most likely if one thinks something is treasons, it probably isn’t.

 

[jackstar7]

How are Russia's actions not considered an act of war?

 

[jackstar7]

Trump's throwing out anything and everything now.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/965079126829871104
Donald J. Trump‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians and that the only Collusion was between Russia and Crooked H, the DNC and the Dems. Remember the Dirty Dossier, Uranium, Speeches, Emails and the Podesta Company!
11:22 PM - 17 Feb 2018

I mean even Shep on Fox debunked the bullshit about uranium, but he's still trying to push that shit. And the indictments confirmed the elections were affected by Russian actions.

It makes me anxious thinking about him feeling the noose tightening.

 

[rise]

Not even insurrection against their own government is considered treason. You’d need to be at war or engaged in open hostility with a foreign power. The standing opinion on the narrow definition of treason was written by Justice Field.



It’s incredibly narrow in its definition. Which is why I say most likely if one thinks something is treasons, it probably isn’t.

Thank you, enlightening!

 

[ivwshane]

How are Russia's actions not considered an act of war?

Exactly.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

How are Russia's actions not considered an act of war?

Because the United States v. Burr established the definition of “levying war” for the purpose of treason. It requires an assemblage of people who intend to use actual force against the United States.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a3_3_1-2s22.html

There’s a huge divide between what people generally think of as treasonous acts and what the law defines as treason.

 

[rise]

Because the United States v. Burr established the definition of “levying war” for the purpose of treason. It requires an assemblage of people who intend to use actual force against the United States.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a3_3_1-2s22.html

These a huge divide between what people generally think of as trasonous acts and what the law defines as treason.

Well, yeah, I had a bit of Hollywood understanding, haha. I had no idea it was soo narrow.

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Well, yeah, I had a bit of Hollywood understanding, haha. I had no idea it was soo narrow.

That incredibly narrow definition is why there have only been about 30 treason trials in 250 years.

 

[ivwshane]

That incredibly narrow definition is why there have only been about 30 treason trials in 250 years.

Before the Heller decision we had 150 years of precedent where the 2nd amendment was viewed as a states right issue and not an individual issue. Just because treason currently has a narrow definition doesn't mean that it will always have a narrow definition. Of course it's highly unlikely that a conservative supreme court would go against precedent but that in no way means the definition is final and can only be interpreted to have a very narrow definition.

One part holding up the treason charge is the part about being at war. Considering how times have changed and that war could potentially include things like cyber warfare, its plausible that the Russian acts could be seen as acts of war.

Of course one would not only have to prove that trump was helping the Russians but there would also have to be people who were helping as well who would have to testify against trump that what they were doing was in fact treason.


All that being said, trump will be seen as a traitor in the court of public opinion, regardless of what charges are brought against him, if its shown that he helped the Russians and they helped him.