India's Caste System Still an Obstacle to Modernization

[Infohawk]

He was educated and trained in the United States. His eventual career basically started working in Mexico with Mexican and American scientists. He then went on to work and collaborate with South Asian scientists.

His primary influences were not Western.

And what about his education and training in the US was non-western? I'm saying it was western. He studied at universities modeled after European ones, spoke a European language, practiced methods that were born of the European Enlightenment. What do you have? Nothing. America is still a western country. Although I disagree with you that America is becoming less Western, your arguments make even less sense during his time.

 

[CanOWorms]

And what about his education and training in the US was non-western?

It was in the United States.

I'm saying it was western.

And I'm saying that it's not.

He studied at universities modeled after European ones

No, he studied at a university modeled after the University of Virginia, a university that was set up to separate education from religious doctrine, a key feature of traditional Western education. Thus, it was a uniquely American and non-European style of institution.

spoke a European language

Borlaug spoke multiple languages. In addition, English is an Indo-European language.

practiced methods that were born of the European Enlightenment.

He practiced methods from all sorts of time periods.

What do you have? Nothing.

Seems like I have everything to contradict what you posted. Now you have nothing.

America is still a western country. Although I disagree with you that America is becoming less Western, your arguments make even less sense during his time.

Look at our demographics. The population of non-Western backgrounds is increasing. Look at our culture. Look at our President.

We are undeniably becoming less Western.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Well, thank you but I don't deserve the honor of being called an Indian nationalist. I feel like one at heart but my actions don't prove to be so. That honor is for greats like Sardar Patel, Veer Savarkar, Rajaji, and many many others.

And, if you were to compare the civilization of Europeans and Indians, look at the following:

1.) Europe(ans) invaded almost the entire world and engaged in genocide after genocide - 90 million native Americans being one of the most tragic
2.) Indians were invaded and 80 million Hindus were killed over a 1000 year period by muslim and christian invaders
3.) European settlers enslaved millions of blacks over several centuries.
4.) Indians (Hindus) never enslaved anyone; in fact, many of them were enslaved by the muslim and christian invaders.

The analogy is rendered moot because Infohawk's assumptions are based on fluff and purple-farts. Indian history speaks for itself.

Europe began to "shine" only after the 1500s when India and other Asian nations were reeling from several setbacks caused by foreign invaders, exploiters, and genocidal maniacs.

Absolutely, European societies were the most bloodthirsty societies to ever exist in the entire universe. They raped and murdered the entire world at least 100 times over all for the sake of greed and racism.

However, you're still an Indian nationalist.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

It was in the United States.



And I'm saying that it's not.



No, he studied at a university modeled after the University of Virginia, a university that was set up to separate education from religious doctrine, a key feature of traditional Western education. Thus, it was a uniquely American and non-European style of institution.



Borlaug spoke multiple languages. In addition, English is an Indo-European language.



He practiced methods from all sorts of time periods.



Seems like I have everything to contradict what you posted. Now you have nothing.



Look at our demographics. The population of non-Western backgrounds is increasing. Look at our culture. Look at our President.

We are undeniably becoming less Western.

And that's why America is going down the shitter.

 

[Infohawk]

The problem is you like to cherry-pick your time frames. So the University of Virginia was secular. Do you really doubt that there aren't European universities that are also secular? You like to compare the US to Europe in the middle-ages and act like the US is modern. If you were honest you'd compare the two continents at the same time. Since colonization by Europeans, the two continents have been remarkably similar each step of the way. European colonists in the US literally killed the locals and took everything with them from Europe. They did not use any South Asian or East Asian philosophy in the founding of this nation. They did take middle-eastern-influenced religion with them, but when you compare the religion to the middle-eastern religions at the time, it is clear even their religion was distinctly European (and protestantism was purely European).

And you do realize your view of western civilization is racially-based right? According to you since the US is becoming less white it is becoming less western. Amazing that you have the audacity to call me a racist when my definition of western doesn't include race at all.

 

[CanOWorms]

The problem is you like to cherry-pick your time frames.

You seem to enjoy cherry-picking your historical facts.

So the University of Virginia was secular. Do you really doubt that there aren't European universities that are also secular?

Likely none of significance. European countries were heavily religious-based backed then. Also, do you really doubt that there weren't non-European educational institutions that also were secular?

You like to compare the US to Europe in the middle-ages and act like the US is modern. If you were honest you'd compare the two continents at the same time. Since colonization by Europeans, the two continents have been remarkably similar each step of the way.

No, they have not. The US has taken a distinct and different path. That is why our culture has significantly diverged. We fought this little war against the British after all.

European colonists in the US literally killed the locals and took everything with them from Europe. They did not use any South Asian or East Asian philosophy in the founding of this nation.

There were many founding fathers and I'm sure they had many philosophies influencing them.

They did take middle-eastern-influenced religion with them, but when you compare the religion to the middle-eastern religions at the time, it is clear even their religion was distinctly European (and protestantism was purely European).

Many of the founding fathers were deists for whom translated writings of Confucius were influential. Since you're so Eurocentric, I feel that I have to tell you that Confucius was Chinese.

In addition, it doesn't matter too much what we were 200-300 years ago. What are we today? Definitely not European-inspired. Things change: slavery, segregation, etc.

And you do realize your view of western civilization is racially-based right? According to you since the US is becoming less white it is becoming less western. Amazing that you have the audacity to call me a racist when my definition of western doesn't include race at all.

No, it's based on cultural backgrounds.

 

[Infohawk]

You seem to enjoy cherry-picking your historical facts.

Likely none of significance. European countries were heavily religious-based backed then. Also, do you really doubt that there weren't non-European educational institutions that also were secular?

No, they have not. The US has taken a distinct and different path. That is why our culture has significantly diverged. We fought this little war against the British after all.

There were many founding fathers and I'm sure they had many philosophies influencing them.

Many of the founding fathers were deists for whom translated writings of Confucius were influential. Since you're so Eurocentric, I feel that I have to tell you that Confucius was Chinese.

No, it's based on cultural backgrounds.

Can you please just stop repeating what I say? It's not interesting and I'm going to have to ignore you if you keep it up. Just because I say you cherry-pick your time frames doesn't mean you need to say that I cherry-pick my historical facts. Try to dispute whether you do in fact cherry-pick your time frames.

Do you really think your view of western is based on cultural backgrounds? You keep talking about Obama. He was raised by his white mom. You obviously think he's not western because he's black and you're so focused on race.

The founding fathers were deist? So were a lot of Europeans at the time! The US fought a war against England? Of course, with the assistance of the French. You're "sure" the founding fathers had "many" philosophies influencing them? Well just about every American historian would say that their main influences were primarily Enlightenment european thinkers.

I'm not saying there are no differences between American and European cultures, but they are both branches of western civilization. The USA was started by European colonists, as much as you hate to admit it. The USA didn't just pop into existence by magic. So sorry, but America is part of the western world.

Maybe you should try editing Wikipedia since it seems to disagree with you.

 

[CanOWorms]

Can you please just stop repeating what I say? It's not interesting and I'm going to have to ignore you if you keep it up. Just because I say you cherry-pick your time frames doesn't mean you need to say that I cherry-pick my historical facts. Try to dispute whether you do in fact cherry-pick your time frames.

Sorry, but we did not agree on the rules of debate.

Do you really think your view of western is based on cultural backgrounds? You keep talking about Obama. He was raised by his white mom. You obviously think he's not western because he's black and you're so focused on race.

He was raised by his mother in Hawaii and Indonesia, both places influenced heavily by non-Western sources. His mother was also an international-focused woman. He also claims to be the first Pacific President.

He is a product of America: a mixed culture. It's incredible.

The founding fathers were deist? So were a lot of Europeans at the time! The US fought a war against England? Of course, with the assistance of the French. You're "sure" the founding fathers had "many" philosophies influencing them? Well just about every American historian would say that their main influences were primarily Enlightenment european thinkers.

So?

I'm not saying there are no differences between American and European cultures, but they are both branches of western civilization. The USA was started by European colonists, as much as you hate to admit it. The USA didn't just pop into existence by magic. So sorry, but America is part of the western world.

The USA was partly started by European colonists, yes. It's a part of the Western world since that is one of many influences. However, in the same sense it is also part of the Mongolian world.

Maybe you should try editing Wikipedia since it seems to disagree with you.

I would hope that people would read more serious publications than Wikipedia.

 

[Infohawk]

Sorry, but we did not agree on the rules of debate.

He was raised by his mother in Hawaii and Indonesia, both places influenced heavily by non-Western sources. His mother was also an international-focused woman. He also claims to be the first Pacific President.

He is a product of America: a mixed culture. It's incredible.

So?

The USA was partly started by European colonists, yes. It's a part of the Western world since that is one of many influences. However, in the same sense it is also part of the Mongolian world.

I would hope that people would read more serious publications than Wikipedia.

God knows you wouldn't accept Britannica either. How about Webster's dictionary? As American as apple pie. America is included in the definition of the West.

What do you mean "so?" The point is you tried to differentiate the US from Europe and I showed you how in each case the US was culturally similar if not identical to Europe.

Anyway, you can claim the dictionary and Wikipedia aren't credible sources but instead that just makes you seem less credible. Not sure how we can even have a discussion if you're going to torture words to your own political agenda.

 

[CanOWorms]

God knows you wouldn't accept Britannica either. How about Webster's dictionary? As American as apple pie. America is included in the definition of the West.

Dictionaries have various definitions. You can go all super-conservative if you want and start arguing dictionary stuff.

What do you mean "so?" The point is you tried to differentiate the US from Europe and I showed you how in each case the US was culturally similar if not identical to Europe.

I'm not claiming that there are absolutely no similarities between the US and Europe. I'm claiming that the US is a distinct and separate entity from the traditional West. This is especially true today and in the past.

There are similarities between the US and Mongolia. Both had a horse culture in the past!

Anyway, you can claim the dictionary and Wikipedia aren't credible sources but instead that just makes you seem less credible. Not sure how we can even have a discussion if you're going to torture words to your own political agenda.

You're not even citing any sources or stating legitimate facts or analysis. You are repeatedly stating incorrect information. I consistently refute it with some facts, and then you go all ADD on me.

Also, I just said that I would hope people would read beyond Wikipedia, a source that is not too detailed and easily edited by 12-year-olds.

 

[Infohawk]

Dictionaries have various definitions. You can go all super-conservative if you want and start arguing dictionary stuff.

I'm not claiming that there are absolutely no similarities between the US and Europe. I'm claiming that the US is a distinct and separate entity from the traditional West. This is especially true today and in the past.

There are similarities between the US and Mongolia. Both had a horse culture in the past!

You're not even citing any sources or stating legitimate facts or analysis. You are repeatedly stating incorrect information. I consistently refute it with some facts, and then you go all ADD on me.

Also, I just said that I would hope people would read beyond Wikipedia, a source that is not too detailed and easily edited by 12-year-olds.

What do you mean by "traditional West"? Yet another made up term like "monarchy caste system." There is the West and the US is part of it. This is just a basic definition that everyone agrees on. You can try to change the language but you will fail. And it makes sense because Europe and the US share many characteristics that they don't share with other regions. With respect to your terrible Mongolia analogy, the obvious difference is that the US has had much more in common with Europe than with Mongolia and continues to do so.

This is the problem with you cow, you have some interesting points but you stand by these ridiculously outlandish positions with a straight face. Maybe you can argue that the US will no longer be part of the West in your future but it's just ridiculous to say that right now or say it does not apply to America historically. I think we're done here as I can't really discuss the issues with someone who refuses to use the language in an honest way.

(What is with your pathetic ADD thing? Is that some sort of racist thing that you think white people suffer from? Stop being a bigot.)

 

[CanOWorms]

What do you mean by "traditional West"? Yet another made up term like "monarchy caste system." There is the West and the US is part of it.

There are lots of definitions for the West.

This is just a basic definition that everyone agrees on. You can try to change the language but you will fail.

Sorry, but that is not the case. Even then, if the US was part of the West, demographic and cultural change has brought the US farther out of that category where it is even more in debate today.

And it makes sense because Europe and the US share many characteristics that they don't share with other regions. With respect to your terrible Mongolia analogy, the obvious difference is that the US has had much more in common with Europe than with Mongolia and continues to do so.

Please list the characteristics that the US shares with Europe that it does not share with any other regions.

Sure, the US has more in common with Europe than Mongolia. But do we have more in common with Europe than Mexico? What about China? I am inclined to say that we have more in common with those countries than European nations.

This is the problem with you cow, you have some interesting points but you stand by these ridiculously outlandish positions with a straight face. Maybe you can argue that the US will no longer be part of the West in your future but it's just ridiculous to say that right now or say it does not apply to America historically. I think we're done here as I can't really discuss the issues with someone who refuses to use the language in an honest way.

I would be ready to change my position if you had some legitimate facts and analysis. Most of what you post seems easy for me to refute.

(What is with your pathetic ADD thing? Is that some sort of racist thing that you think white people suffer from? Stop being a bigot.)

It's a characterization of your behavior on the forum. Whenever you are shown to be wrong, you don't re-engage those points nor do you concede - you explicitly delete the portions from your replies. It's like you don't have the attention span to return to those issues and just jump to something else.

 

[Infohawk]

Cow, does it kill you that the King's Speech won the Oscar?

 

[CanOWorms]

Cow, does it kill you that the King's Speech won the Oscar?

No, it was a good movie.

Are you upset in its portrayal of the British royal family as inbred and cruel? It's interesting that you bring up The King's Speech in a thread on caste systems, too. The film does a good job showing how the system worked in the UK from the point of view of two men who must bridge over some of the harsh caste customs of the time.

 

[Infohawk]

No, it was a good movie.

Are you upset in its portrayal of the British royal family as inbred and cruel?

No.

 

[piasabird]

Some nations and some people affected by colonialization, have developed an anti-colonization culture. Some places in India they send their children to work for payment of money or livestock for the family. This is selling your children as slaves.

 

[silverpig]

It's such a shame that a thread with such an interesting topic and so much potential was derailed by douchebags right off the bat.

 

[piasabird]

It is a typical practice in India for poor farmers to commit suicide when they can not pay their debts to the loan sharks. Very interesting culture.

The class system is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14058814

 

[KGB]

DON'T WORRY