you speak as you represent the majority, but in return all you do is gibber and provide facts based on your opinion alone.
you speak as you represent the majority, but in return all you do is gibber and provide facts based on your opinion alone.
theflyingpig
Banned
- Mar 9, 2008
- 5,616
- 18
- 0
Heh, all you have to do is look around you to see that I am right. Sure, I'll concede that many people would like the world you describe, so would I, but they all eventually come to realize that it will never happen. As will you, in time.
Stop attacking the OP. Everyone has a bias for their own country, a lot of the shit we talk about would be laughed at (with good reason) as being distorted in other parts of the world. Our intervention in Korea is one example of how an action can be legitimately seen in completely opposite points of view. You Americans insulting the OP and Pakistan are an embarrassment to our country and I apologize to the OP on your behalf because what happens in global politics does not warrant personal insults, he isn't the fucking President of Pakistan so back off.
edit: LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE
edit: LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE
If I were sitting in my house content with my wealth and status, I certainly will not allow someone living in my house to lob bombs across the wall into my neighbor's house. Your posting doesn't make sense.
And who the eff cares about Pakistan which, by all accounts, is a s**thole living on handouts from the IMF (latest begging bowl collections: USD 7 billion or so). If the international community withdraws this, then that is the end of that wretched country. Indians certainly don't care if tPakistanis live in their imaginary country of peace, wealth and happiness. If it gives them the jollies, so be it.
The problem is that these half-breeds want to be more muslim than the muslims and go about sowing death and destruction all over the world and India in particular, giving the religion such a bad name. That's what's being discussed here, not comparative economics of the two countries.
Perhaps the wanton provocation of the Mumbai attacks may come across as teenage pranks to you, but they are real for the rest of us and fraught with serious consequences for Pakistan. It's not just Americans or Indians but go to any board dealing with Pakistan and you can see the wringing of hands at the misadventures of that wretched country all over the world.
If the OP doesn't want to be insulted, let him stop insulting the intelligence of people on this board.
Actually I spent a good amount of time this summer at all of the sites that were attacked and know people who go to them frequently. I was based out of Bangalore and during my time there a bomb exploded a block away from my apartment at the mall I passed through daily on my way to school. So the attacks hit home for me and by a stroke of luck a good friend of mine was not at Leopold's like he usually would be at that time of night.
The problem is, as I said, most anyone talking about their own country is going to have strong biases and we should recognize that before hurling insults at one another. A number of insults weren't even related to what the OP was saying, such as one of the first that asked if he liked living in a shitty country. That is provocation. We have a Pakistani in this forum wanting to discuss issues and instead of taking advantage of that and seeing each other's point of view and why we hold that point of view, we start off by telling the guy to go fuck himself because his opinion isn't coming from the same American exceptionalist beginnings that most of ours do (although I get a hint that you're Indian).
Under normal circumstances, I would agree. But these are extra-ordinary circumstances. First, like every Indian, I'm also extremely critical of Indian politicians and their police minions who're basically in it for themselves. They should have known the Mumbai attacks of that kind of sophistication was coming, given that the city is a flashing red-light beacon for every two-bit Islamic terrorist with a pavlovian grudge against Indians, Israelis and Americans.
That said, it is indeed an insult to human intelligence to claim that the terrorists were not from Pakistan despite over-whelming evidence. Don't take my word for it, take that of Condoleeza Rice, Gordon Brown and various other foreign diplomats who have gone on record that all evidence points in that direction. His other contention is that India is not providing Pakistan with the evidence. What does he take Indians for, fools? The ISI handlers of the malcontents who perpetrated the attacks will be licking their chops for just that so that they can make their next attack even more difficult for Indians to unearth and defend against.
Everyone except Pakistanis know that the puppeteers directing this heinous attack move about openly in their midst. This guy's posts are one of denial and if you insult intelligence, expect personal attacks.
Tvarad, I'm mostly in agreement with you on the terrorist attacks but don't expect Pakistanis to take their sworn enemies at their word. The proof of their Pakistani origins is not beyond fabrication and although that seems far-fetched (I believe it is) it is something a Pakistani would not have a hard time believing, nor would an Indian if the situations were reversed. What the OP is hearing through media is slanted as is what Indians are hearing through their news programs, meaning most of both of them are basing their conclusions off of a selected set of facts. It's the same here in America where you would get fired as a journalist if you ever suggested our presence in the Middle East contributed to 9/11, or that the targets that day weren't entirely civilian or the type cowards might pick (the financial and military headquarters). Both of these things are grounded in fact but a clear nationalist bias can be found in how we as Americans react to them. It is certainly something I recognize as an American and it is something I think you as an Indian need to recognize before you blast the OP's comments as an "insult to human intelligence."
Where has he shown the willingness to discuss things? When you quote a news article which disproves what he says, he completely ignores the post.
I am yet to see TGB even make an attempt for a rational discussion of the problem.
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
- 5
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This sounds like Pakistan is attempting to divert blame.
Similar to stating that 9/11 was the fault of the US for it's agencies not detecting it and stopping it.
If the people came from Pakistan and were trained in Pakistan then Pakistan should accept that they have a problem and work toward resolving it. Attempting to blame India is acknowledging that Pakistan has some involvement and will do nothing to stop it.
The "anti-Pak propaganda" coming from India may be more that information that is damming to Pakistan's denials, is being released.
Within the current situation, everytime Pakistan has attempted to deflect the physical evidence with an alternate theory, the evidence jumps up to bite them. So they must generate another spin.
A government must be accountable for the actions of its people, to continue to turn a blind eye becomes the same as encouragement/sponsorship.
TGB: When the BJP was in power, the Prime Minister of India traveled to Pakistan to improve relations and withing months you guys responded by attacking India in Kargil. You guys have never shown any inclination to live in peace and harmony despite repeated efforts by India.
Farang,
If you follow things on the ground in Pakistan, you'll notice that the U.S. has had enough of the same kind of BS argument that TGB has put forth vis-a-vis the eastern border. That is why you hear of drone strikes every couple of days which takes out a couple of Islamic malcontents at a time. They're not buying the "you show us the evidence, we'll act" or "there are no terrorists in Pakistan" kind of nonsense anymore.
Your rhetoric may earn you a couple of brownie points in the rarefied air of a debating club but it loses it's value when correlated with the reality on the ground.
You've got it wrong. India just hasn't figured out the Pakistani psyche. You see, the real reason is that they're a little kinky. Americans have figured that out which is why they attack their behinds using Reapers and Predators with impunity.
Idiot Indians, even with their Kamasutras and Kajurahos still don't get it ;-).
We've already done a lot. We've banned the jamatuddawa at the request of India. I'm afraid we can't do more unless solid proof is provided. Nobody is denying terrorism does exist in Pakistan. We know it's a problem and we are fighting it.
Show me proof that a Pakistani was invloved. And even if the terrorist was of Pakistani origin there is no proof that this was planned in Pakistan.
CC you seem like a reasonably smart man. Do you believe India's version of 10 terrorists holding up against the might of India for 3 days? And if it's indeed true then we know who the cowards are and in that case India is not fit to fight wars. Do you believe India's version of weapons being smuggled by boat? Sounds ridiculous to me.
Having said that India has anti-Pakistan cells as well. Like the terrorist party Shiv Sena. Most Indians would agree with me. Calling for the destruction of Pakistan and is unacceptable to us. And look at their media. If calling the public to be "angry at Pakistan" is not propaganda what is it?
TGB,
Law and order is basically the responsibility of state governments. The govt. uses the police as a shake-down operation to collect bribes from hapless citizens and push it upwards. This is especially true in cash-rich urban centers like Mumbai. Even worse, politicians don't care for urban areas because their vote just does not count since urban assembly seats are dwarfed by rural areas and the power is in the hands of the chief minister. For them, rural areas are vote banks and urban areas are money banks.
These fellows have been hood-winking citizens with the pretense of providing services (including policing). In reality, there is very little of it. Go down to the local police station to lodge a complaint; first thing you're asked for is a bribe. Get into an accident, you're vehicle is impounded immediately, even if it's not your fault. You can only release it through a bribe. As far as modern equipment and tactics to fight terrorists are concerned; forget about it. That is why the three police heads who were killed were swatted aside like flies; they thought that they were dealing with garden variety terrorists when, in reality, these guys were trained by guys fighting the Americans and the Russians before that.
If anything, the terrorists have done India a favor and proved that the politicians are emperors wearing no clothes; something that the long suffering Indian urban citizen has never been able to do. That is why there has been so much venom spewed against the politicians for the first time by urban citizens.
Look at this video of a cop taking on the terrorists with a bolt action rifle and you'll see how unprepared they were.
Now stop insulting our intelligence. At least Indians have been criticizing their politicians for their inability to stop terrorist attacks despite so many warnings. What are you doing about your military which is putting your country in harm's way by instigating such attacks?
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,589
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India's response to the situation was a comedy of errors. The ability to respond was further compromised by logistics and lack of coordination.
Also, the moment you have more than two simultaneous attacks, then the authorities start to be fearful of committing forces because the full picture is not known.
Unless they want to storm the building without proper intel (causing unneeded causalities), it can take a day or two to gather Intel and determine a proper attack plan. The real world does not reflect the 60 minutes SWAT response on TV anymore.
People planning such types of attacks will research to find weaknesses in the system and exploit them. Such weaknesses are most likely in plain sight and is doing the complete illogical/unexpected.
Media sells stories and shock to the readers. News events are to be dramatized for effect and will be targeted toward the readership.
If the one person was not taken alive, it would be harder for India to linking the situation to Pakistan - there would be innuendos, but the first hand corroboration would not exist. that is what is most damming. the person's father coinging forward from Pakistan and stating that it is his son.
It is also very likely that there is an extremist group that was not interested in covering their tracks - they want to force a confrontation and get name recognition.
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
It was on live TV for the whole effing world to see!! Whats to question about that? Were you sleeping through those days?
Poor intelligence? Yes. Slow response? Yes. Poor policing? Yes. Cowards? No - the commandos were anything but cowards. What about all the stories of heroism by the hotel staff? Thats not cowardice.
As to smuggling weapons by boat - it's not as difficult as you think. No country can provides absolute guarantees that its coastline (specially as large as India's) will never be breached, or a small force can slip in unnoticed. Heck thats what special forces are trained to do.
But you choose to keep your buried in your own propaganda and spin.
Everybody responding to this topic cant be wrong and only you right. Maybe its time for some introspection.
dphantom
Diamond Member
- Jan 14, 2005
- 4,763
- 327
- 126
There is beginning to be anecdotal evidence/rumors that India is planning a small scale retaliation fairly soon, perhaps within days. This is supposedly designed to show Pakistan India is serious but not do enough damage that Pakistan would launch an escalatory attack of its own. Perhaps something similar to the US missile attacks in NWFP.
India supposedly has relayed to Pakistan its determination for a show of force in retaliation for the Mumbai attacks. More than likely, Indian atacks would be against terrorist base camps or other Taliban areas. Perhaps Kashmir.
I hope nothing comes of this, but I would not be surprised to see India do something more since Pakistan is unwilling to provide assistance in bringing to justice the backers of the Mumbai attacks. It is almost certain the ISI planned, directed and controlled the attack. The ISI operates outside of the current civilian government and has strong support within mainline Pakistan military.
India supposedly has relayed to Pakistan its determination for a show of force in retaliation for the Mumbai attacks. More than likely, Indian atacks would be against terrorist base camps or other Taliban areas. Perhaps Kashmir.
I hope nothing comes of this, but I would not be surprised to see India do something more since Pakistan is unwilling to provide assistance in bringing to justice the backers of the Mumbai attacks. It is almost certain the ISI planned, directed and controlled the attack. The ISI operates outside of the current civilian government and has strong support within mainline Pakistan military.
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