Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,272
1,441
136
Based on this post I would argue you having a gun places you at more risk period.

Owned firearms for over 25+ years. I am intelligent enough to properly own and safely use a firearm. However based on your posts I would argue that you owning a firearm might not be a good thing for you.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,848
2,051
126
Shit, I ain't got grandchildren. I ain't even got kids! But it doesn't take Ghandi levels of empathy to realize this is a big deal.
GOP/wannabe GOP don't have empathy...ironic since a lot of them profess their love of Jesus Christ.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Ah, yes, the old 'Criminals don't follow laws so what is the point of laws' argument. You understand that argument can be used for literally anything and therefor is not a valid argument? What is the point of having a law against murder, murderers don't follow the law!

You want to invalidate the argument because it's an inconvenient and immovable fact you don't want to have to deal with, and democratic gun control policy tends to just ignore it, and then fails.

Eg SAFE act in Buffalo

Democratic policies are vigorously fought by the gun community because they are written in a position hostility to the law abiding community, but do little to actually stop determined criminals.

It's like watching Trump trying to make public health policy. He doesn't know what TF he is talking about, but thinks he knows everything, suggests idiotic solutions, and just pisses ppl off who do know, and results in a track record of failure.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,272
1,441
136
No true scotsman fallacy. Statistics don't lie, and I say that as a gun owner.

Context matters a lot.

My risk of dying from COVID goes way down if I am vaccinated. The context of me being vaccinated matters a lot with my risk to COVID.

The context of knowing how to safely store and use a firearm matters a lot in regards to the risk from owning one.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
55,826
13,876
146
Owned firearms for over 25+ years. I am intelligent enough to properly own and safely use a firearm. However based on your posts I would argue that you owning a firearm might not be a good thing for you.

You remind me of people who claim they cannot be brainwashed and are immune to advertising influence and propaganda.

Ironically, they are all universally puppets and completely oblivious to it.

Fact: Owning guns puts you and others in your home at an increased risk of death statistically.
Yes,. there are steps you can take to lower that risk., However, DENYING that risk simply elevates the risk.

The fact that you deny the risk, rather than recognize it and take steps to diminish it speaks volumes.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,720
47,409
136
Context matters a lot.

My risk of dying from COVID goes way down if I am vaccinated. The context of me being vaccinated matters a lot with my risk to COVID.

The context of knowing how to safely store and use a firearm matters a lot in regards to the risk from owning one.
The main threats from having a gun in the home are not accidents, which safe storage prevents. They are suicide, which safe storage does not prevent, and homicide, which safe storage largely doesn’t prevent.

Having a gun in the home is inherently dangerous to the inhabitants, it doesn’t protect you, it puts you at risk. You never know if you might feel suicidal someday, and having a gun in the house can turn a fistfight into a gunfight.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,272
1,441
136
You remind me of people who claim they cannot be brainwashed and are immune to advertising influence and propaganda.

Ironically, they are all universally puppets and completely oblivious to it.

Fact: Owning guns puts you and others in your home at an increased risk of death statistically.
Yes,. there are steps you can take to lower that risk., However, DENYING that risk simply elevates the risk.

The fact that you deny the risk, rather than recognize it and take steps to diminish it speaks volumes.

I never denied the risk.
All I did was question the level of risk that some are claiming from owning a firearm when that firearm is properly stored and handled.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
Remember when Democrats couldn't get voting rights past the filibuster? They gave the bill to Joe Manchin to craft a compromise. He did that and Republicans still voted no.

What makes you think Republicans have ANY interest in being honest brokers??

Wha wha... Legislating is hard.

When has it ever been easy? Lincoln just sit in the corner and whine he couldn't get the 13th amendment passed?

LBJ cry dixiecrats were difficult to deal with and couldn't get civil rights passed?

I'm tired of their excuses that they are bad at their jobs.

They are there to make deals, find compromises and get something done.

Not whine, grandstand and beg for campaign donations because after next election they'll surely be able to do it.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,793
136
Owned firearms for over 25+ years. I am intelligent enough to properly own and safely use a firearm. However based on your posts I would argue that you owning a firearm might not be a good thing for you.

Here is the deal skippy, I don't need murder toys. That's your strange bag.

But your I'm rubber you're glue response is some weak ass shit.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,201
14,877
136
You want to invalidate the argument because it's an inconvenient and immovable fact you don't want to have to deal with, and democratic gun control policy tends to just ignore it, and then fails.

Eg SAFE act in Buffalo

Democratic policies are vigorously fought by the gun community because they are written in a position hostility to the law abiding community, but do little to actually stop determined criminals.

It's like watching Trump trying to make public health policy. He doesn't know what TF he is talking about, but thinks he knows everything, suggests idiotic solutions, and just pisses ppl off who do know, and results in a track record of failure.

This should be pretty easy to verify. Take the last gun legislation passed by democrats in the house and show us yourself which parts are hostile to existing gun owners. How much time do you need?


You can choose either bill:

 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,272
1,441
136
The main threats from having a gun in the home are not accidents, which safe storage prevents. They are suicide, which safe storage does not prevent, and homicide, which safe storage largely doesn’t prevent.

What is the increased risk in suicide for someone owning a firearm that is safely stored versus someone who doesn't own a firearm?
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,793
136
I never denied the risk.
All I did was question the level of risk that some are claiming from owning a firearm when that firearm is properly stored and handled.

"Just asking questions" seems to be your routine go to when called out on your bull shit.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,272
1,441
136
Here is the deal skippy, I don't need murder toys. That's your strange bag.

But your I'm rubber you're glue response is some weak ass shit.

Here is the deal your personal attacks on me when I disagree with you are really getting weak and pathetic. Why don't you try and sell your brand of BS to someone else.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,720
47,409
136
What is the increased risk in suicide for someone owning a firearm that is safely stored versus someone who doesn't own a firearm?
Are you looking for the odds ratio? It makes you about ten times more likely to die from suicide.


It’s really bad.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
The main threats from having a gun in the home are not accidents, which safe storage prevents. They are suicide, which safe storage does not prevent, and homicide, which safe storage largely doesn’t prevent.

Having a gun in the home is inherently dangerous to the inhabitants, it doesn’t protect you, it puts you at risk. You never know if you might feel suicidal someday, and having a gun in the house can turn a fistfight into a gunfight.

The US is not particularly high in suicide rates globally. South Korea is #4, and they tend to poison themselves or jump off bridges.

In Japan, suicide is the leading cause of death for young men and women (eg 20s, 30s, 40s) yet have very strict gun laws.


This idea that if you have a gun and will just be inspired to shoot yourself in the face doesn't make much sense when we own 45% of all the guns in the world.

Nor does it hold much weight thinking that someone who wants to do it they can't figure a way out.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,272
1,441
136
Are you looking for the odds ratio? It makes you about ten times more likely to die from suicide.


It’s really bad.

Thank you for sharing that. So far in what I read, that is a good study and does a good job at controlling for context around how the gun is stored etc. I do think there is a unhealthy fascination with guns in the US. I have some relatives that got CCW permits and they wanted me to also get one. I was like, nope don't need to carry a gun for protection.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,720
47,409
136
The US is not particularly high in suicide rates globally. South Korea is #4, and they tend to poison themselves or jump off bridges.

In Japan, suicide is the leading cause of death for young men and women (eg 20s, 30s, 40s) yet have very strict gun laws.
There are lots of factors that lead people to suicide, including cultural ones. Regardless, the science is very clear in the US that the average person is at dramatically larger risk of completed suicide if they own a gun. This is just a fact.


This idea that if you have a gun and will just be inspired to shoot yourself in the face doesn't make much sense when we own 45% of all the guns in the world.

Nor does it hold much weight thinking that someone who wants to do it they can't figure a way out.
This shows a lack of understanding of how suicide works. It is not the result of a carefully considered plan, it’s a unique moment of despair. Most people who attempt suicide and fail never attempt it again, so the means people use matter a lot. Guns are a very effective method of suicide, so they are uniquely dangerous in that way.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
The better question to ask is if these mass killings (then often suicide) are actually a perverse form of suicide by these typically young, loser males.


Guns have been readily available for over 100 years, but why now the act is to mass murder in the most reprehensible way possible before killing yourself.


Columbine: mass murder, suicide. HS males

Sandy hook: shoot mom, mass murder, suicide. Young male.

Virginia Tech: mass murder, suicide. Young male.

Santa Fe, TX: mass murder, intended suicide, but backed out. Young male.

Buffalo: mass murder, almost suicide, but bitched out. Young male.

Christchurch: Mass murder, perp was an abuse victim, father committed suicide. Racist manifesto. 28 male.

CA incel shooting: Mass murder of women, suicide. Young male.

School Shooting as a Culturally Enforced Way of Expressing Suicidal Hostile Intentions:


And it's not only shootings, and it's not only the USA. Care to look at the epidemic of mass stabbings in China? Yes, often in elementary schools...
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
There are lots of factors that lead people to suicide, including cultural ones. Regardless, the science is very clear in the US that the average person is at dramatically larger risk of completed suicide if they own a gun. This is just a fact.



This shows a lack of understanding of how suicide works. It is not the result of a carefully considered plan, it’s a unique moment of despair. Most people who attempt suicide and fail never attempt it again, so the means people use matter a lot. Guns are a very effective method of suicide, so they are uniquely dangerous in that way.

So if it's so effective, and guns so readily available, why isn't USA #1 in suicides?

Pretty weak correlation you are trying to draw here.

Belgium, Iceland, Japan, South Africa, Australia, Finland... Lots of suicides, not a lot of guns..

Here's also an NIH study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12764330/

Yes, odds of suicide by firearm are higher, but odds of suicide are lower for other means.
Ergo, guns are preferred over jumping off bridges or sucking car exhaust like the Asians do.

The overall quoted rates are much lower than the study you linked. Curious of the methodology, but can't tell from an abstract.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,085
5,618
126
The better question to ask is if these mass killings (then often suicide) are actually a perverse form of suicide by these typically young, loser males.


Guns have been readily available for over 100 years, but why now the act is to mass murder in the most reprehensible way possible before killing yourself.


Columbine: mass murder, suicide. HS males

Sandy hook: shoot mom, mass murder, suicide. Young male.

Virginia Tech: mass murder, suicide. Young male.

Santa Fe, TX: mass murder, intended suicide, but backed out. Young male.

Buffalo: mass murder, almost suicide, but bitched out. Young male.

Christchurch: Mass murder, perp was an abuse victim, father committed suicide. Racist manifesto. 28 male.

CA incel shooting: Mass murder of women, suicide. Young male.

School Shooting as a Culturally Enforced Way of Expressing Suicidal Hostile Intentions:


And it's not only shootings, and it's not only the USA. Care to look at the epidemic of mass stabbings in China? Yes, often in elementary schools...

Not an accurate statement. However, mass shootings have been around for as long as that. You can't buy TNT at a Hardware store due to an act of School Violence. Such an event is also why you can't buy a Full Auto firearm. For awhile AR15s were banned as well and during that ban it decreased these incidents.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,647
5,220
136
L O FUCKING L

Both parties have to be interested in governing for compromise to be possible.

Demand better politicians then.
Biden's raison d'etre was that he was an old master of the Senate, jovial, a deal maker, could get things done.

Stop making excuses for failure.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,793
136
Here is the deal your personal attacks on me when I disagree with you are really getting weak and pathetic. Why don't you try and sell your brand of BS to someone else.
Your dishonesty is tiring. You aren’t the first poster to pull that routine here.
 

Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
31,494
9,825
136
Demand better politicians then.
Biden's raison d'etre was that he was an old master of the Senate, jovial, a deal maker, could get things done.

Stop making excuses for failure.
over half the politicians in congress WANT to do something. the other (slightly less than) half are preventing anything from happening. you need to change the half that won't do anything in order to actually get something done. and guess what? the people who elect that intractable half don't give a flying fuck. so we're stuck.