Incomprehensible mass shooting happens again

[Captante]

I was going to stay away

Shame that something changed your mind on that.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Because alcohol in moderation isn't the problem. We have it exactly backwards. Alcohol should be 18, guns should be 25.

Then why are most gun deaths and gun related crimes in the age group from 24 to 35? Should we raise the age to 35? Or maybe we should raise it to 64, since it doesn't drastically tapper off till then? (We have a problem from age 15 thru age 64).

Yes, raising the age to 25 will bring the numbers down under 25, but it will raise the numbers above 25. I agree we have a gun problem, but it's not really an age problem persay. Restricting them by age won't solve the overall problem we have with guns. I agree it will most likely reduce school shooting, but it is really only a bandaide for the gun crisis we have in this country. Age restrictions won't fix it.

Now I am 100% in agreement in making the drinking age 18. Specially since you can join the military at 18 and die for your country, but you can't have a beer at the end of the day.

 

[dank69]

Then why are most gun deaths and gun related crimes in the age group from 24 to 35? Should we raise the age to 35? Or maybe we should raise it to 64, since it doesn't drastically tapper off till then? (We have a problem from age 15 thru age 64).

Now I am 100% in agreement in making the drinking age 18. Specially since you can join the military at 18 and die for your country, but you can't have a beer at the end of the day.

Apply your logic in reverse to see why it doesn't hold water: Why not lower the age to purchase guns to 16? 12? 10? It's the 24-35 age group we need to worry about, right? Might as well give everyone guns?

We can't take all guns. We know that, so throwing up evidence that some certain group is also dangerous and won't be affected by X means we should not do X is a non-starter. We do what we can where we can knowing we can't stop them all but at least we can reduce some bad things without getting oppressive. Not sure what your objection is to raising the age limit to 25. It's really weird. Sure, some 18-25 are probably mature enough but the majority are not. 18-25 can still go hunting/plinking with adult supervision.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Apply your logic in reverse to see why it doesn't hold water: Why not lower the age to purchase guns to 16? 12? 10? It's the 24-35 age group we need to worry about, right? Might as well give everyone guns?

We can't take all guns. We know that, so throwing up evidence that some certain group is also dangerous and won't be affected by X means we should not do X is a non-starter. We do what we can where we can knowing we can't stop them all but at least we can reduce some bad things without getting oppressive. Not sure what your objection is to raising the age limit to 25. It's really weird. Sure, some 18-25 are probably mature enough but the majority are not. 18-25 can still go hunting/plinking with adult supervision.

way to twist what I am saying I to something completely stupid. We aren't talking about children, preteensz or early teen, maturity. Nothing I said implies we should give guns to those age groups, or everyone.


I have a problem with it because it won't solve the problem (see my edit above). If it's a maturity issues, an age issue or rather an issue with our current age limits, why is it a bigger problem from age 24 to 35? Explain why the numbers go up, not down in that age group, if it indeed is an age/maturity issue between 18 and 25?

 

[eelw]

Sure, some 18-25 are probably mature enough but the majority are not. 18-25 can still go hunting/plinking with adult supervision.

Like why isn’t that an acceptable limitation, parent supervision for new young gun owners. And you hold the parents accountable for their child’s actions.

 

[Captante]

way to twist what I am saying I to something completely stupid

You don't need much "assistance" along those lines.

 

[dlerious]

And? If they are part of a well regulated militia, then they can. Are you part of a well regulated miiltia? Is anyone in this thread part of one?

I was. Does that mean I can keep guns.

 

[Maxima1]

Now I am 100% in agreement in making the drinking age 18. Specially since you can join the military at 18 and die for your country, but you can't have a beer at the end of the day.

Why specially? That argument is akin to saying, "if you're going to ban guns, why not cars because they also result in fatalities?".

The effects of minimum legal drinking age 21 laws on alcohol-related driving in the United States - PubMed

Lowering the drinking age to 18 will increase highway crash deaths among young people.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusions: The cause and effect relationship between MLDAs of 21 and reductions in highway crashes is clear. Initiatives to lower the drinking age to 18 ignore the demonstrated public health benefits of MLDAs of 21.

Impact on industry: Lowering the drinking age to 18 will increase highway crash deaths among young people.

 

[soulcougher73]

I was. Does that mean I can keep guns.

Only if you are still in the national guard I guess. It is the only regulated form of militia we have.

 

[thilanliyan]

Yes, raising the age to 25 will bring the numbers down under 25, but it will raise the numbers above 25.

Can you explain that? I don't follow that logic.

 

[Lanyap]

Oof.

IIRC most states have hunting laws that limit the number of rounds in semi-auto hunting rifles to 5 to give the game a fair chance.

 

[ch33zw1z]

If you can

Why specially? That argument is akin to saying, "if you're going to ban guns, why not cars because they also result in fatalities?".

The effects of minimum legal drinking age 21 laws on alcohol-related driving in the United States - PubMed

Lowering the drinking age to 18 will increase highway crash deaths among young people.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Conclusions: The cause and effect relationship between MLDAs of 21 and reductions in highway crashes is clear. Initiatives to lower the drinking age to 18 ignore the demonstrated public health benefits of MLDAs of 21.

Impact on industry: Lowering the drinking age to 18 will increase highway crash deaths among young people.

Interesting, kinda sounds like we should adjust the military enlistment age higher instead.

I’d also strongly support tax payer funded college for all.

 

[Zorba]

Because Democrats are wrong on this issue, are too emotionally invested in ineffective gun grabbing, are ignoring constitutional liberties, ignoring court precedent, ignoring political realities, and haven't done a damn thing to fix this issue since Columbine.

Democrats are completely ignoring, actually deriding, school safety security issues, mental health issues, and are hell bent on passing partisan, ineffective and ultimately doomed to fail legislation.

Who's tethered to reality here? Democrats? What a joke. Why aren't you more pissed, or are you just happy with culture war bullshit? Trot kids out in public, give emotional speeches, then pass partisan legislation just to complain about nasty Republicans in the fall?

I have no interest in giving up constitutional freedoms just to pass stupid laws that criminals just ignore and puts law abiding citizens at risk because they don't have the means to defend themselves when the govt is too incompetent or ineffective to solve the underlaying crime problems.

I've laid out what I thought reasonable reforms were, and that's coming from a liberal gun owner. You'll need to reach further across the aisle if you want actual change.

Links to any attempt by republicans to do anything serious about mental health since Columbine? How about how they voted against ACA over and over again even though it had coverage mandates for mental health.

Republicans taking about mental health is 100% a red herring.

 

[Zorba]

Yes, like a lot of these mass murderers.

He just gave up before the murder and suicide part. Buffalo shooter got to the murder and gun under the chin part.

Your gun grabbing isn't going to stop crazies from existing, and who wants to fight a psycho with a knife and crow bar with their fists?

You feel ok letting your wife fight off knife wielding attackers or rapists with fists?

Again, show us all the mass murders happening at the same rates in other first world countries. But you're right "nothing can be done."

 

[nickqt]

Again, show us all the mass murders happening at the same rates in other first world countries. But you're right "nothing can be done."

I don't think Bitek once says nothing can be done. On the other hand, I do see him and others saying that you aren't going to just confiscate all the guns, and that these murders are part and parcel of mental health issues that are endemic especially within the US for a myriad of reasons.

 

[KMFJD]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535735141208932352

might have stopped something for once?

 

[nickqt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535735141208932352

might have stopped something for once?

The offgoing shift got Fed up with the oncoming shift being late.

 

[Zorba]

The performance of the Uvalde police department cannot be more clear as an example of exactly why the traditional NRA/gun nutters talking points are out of touch with reality and it simply doesn't matter. They. Don't. Care. They are incapable, physically, of seeing it any other way.

Yup, even the good guys with guns and body armor are afraid of bad guys with guns. This has created a cycle of ever increasing militarization of police where they are still scared shitless that they might be shot.

Meanwhile, in many countries police don't even need to carry a gun.

 

[Zorba]

I don't think Bitek once says nothing can be done. On the other hand, I do see him and others saying that you aren't going to just confiscate all the guns, and that these murders are part and parcel of mental health issues that are endemic especially within the US for a myriad of reasons.

And a shit ton of these shootings are done with new guns and/or guns that weren't stored correctly and were stolen.

 

[MrSquished]

And a shit ton of these shootings are done with new guns and/or guns that weren't stored correctly and were stolen.

And gun runners. When you can buy guns like candy in the south then just run them up I95 and into Baltimore then Philly then NYC and make a ton of money, it's going to happen, a lot

 

[Zorba]

And gun runners. When you can buy guns like candy in the south then just run them up I95 and into Baltimore then Philly then NYC and make a ton of money, it's going to happen, a lot

Yeah. But I don't think that is common in mass shootings. Is for gang violence, of course.

 

[sandorski]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535735141208932352

might have stopped something for once?

Something must have been happening.

Conspiracy to Riot. At a Pride event.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Can you explain that? I don't follow that logic.

All though it will reduce the gun deaths and gun crimes under 25 because they won't have easy access to guns, a percentage will then move to the higher age group because those that won't be able to get guns before 25, will then have to wait till 25 purchase them. Raising the age limit isn't going to change most of these people's mentality on killing people, or committing violent crimes using a gun, it will just post pone it for many of them, as the age limit won't prevent what ever "feelings" or mental breakdown that drove them to such an act. It could actually cause them to hold them inside where they fester and their rage gets worse. In fact, if the age limit is raised, we will most likely see less school shootings (great), but an increase in work place shootings (not great).

It also has to do with the American society and the mentality/beliefs/etc around guns. As long as we have a society that teaches people you need to have a gun, and use it when that person "feels" it necessary. As well as have access to them, the problem will never go away. Changing the age limit just moves the problem to higher age groups.

The only solution that will solve the gun crisis, is one that effects every age group over 18. You don't need to take away all guns, but restrict which guns people can have, as well as how many. Of course the best solution would be ban guns all together, but the odds of that happening are near zero. Which leaves us only heavy restrictions left.

 

[Zorba]

All though it will reduce the gun deaths and gun crimes under 25 because they won't have easy access to guns, a percentage will then move to the higher age group because those that won't be able to get guns before 25, will then have to wait till 25 purchase them. Raising the age limit isn't going to change most of these people's mentality on killing people, or committing violent crimes using a gun, it will just post pone it for many of them, as the age limit won't prevent what ever "feelings" or mental breakdown that drove them to such an act. It could actually cause them to hold them inside where they fester and their rage gets worse. In fact, if the age limit is raised, we will most likely see less school shootings (great), but an increase in work place shootings (not great).

It also has to do with the American society and the mentality/beliefs/etc around guns. As long as we have a society that teaches people you need to have a gun, and use it when that person "feels" it necessary. As well as have access to them, the problem will never go away. Changing the age limit just moves the problem to higher age groups.

The only solution that will solve the gun crisis, is one that effects every age group over 18. You don't need to take away all guns, but restrict which guns people can have, as well as how many. Of course the best solution would be ban guns all together, but the odds of that happening are near zero. Which leaves us only heavy restrictions left.

A lot of people grow up and grow into different problems between 18 and 25. When I was 18 I had daily suicidal thoughts, by the time I was 25 and ever since I've been pretty happy. People think because their life sucks in highschool it'll suck forever, then you get out into the real world and realize highschool just sucks. If nothing else schools will no longer be seen as the source of their problems by 25.

 

[pmv]

All though it will reduce the gun deaths and gun crimes under 25 because they won't have easy access to guns, a percentage will then move to the higher age group because those that won't be able to get guns before 25, will then have to wait till 25 purchase them. Raising the age limit isn't going to change most of these people's mentality on killing people, or committing violent crimes using a gun, it will just post pone it for many of them, as the age limit won't prevent what ever "feelings" or mental breakdown that drove them to such an act. It could actually cause them to hold them inside where they fester and their rage gets worse. In fact, if the age limit is raised, we will most likely see less school shootings (great), but an increase in work place shootings (not great).

Yeah, agreeing with Zorba, while a _percentage_ of such people might just hold it in till 25 and then go berserk anyway, I'm pretty sure that percentage will be far less than 100%. Even leaving out biological arguments about brain development (which I'm sure play a part), it's just an observable fact that a lot of people who are hot-heads or mentally-unstable when young, calm down as they age. (They might also end up in jail or dead due to something other than guns, in the meantime).