In case you think Communism works

[Bitek]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Communism is just as realistic as anarchy.

It did give poorer countries a flag to rally behind though, and instilled many independence movements. For that I give it props. American/British capitalism has never worked anywhere except rich white countries. Most semi-successful Asian countries are heavily Socialistic.

???

Britian is highly socialist and very capitalistic.

Socialism != Communism

They are seperate things. Capitalists and Communists can be socialist, as well as dictatorships.

 

[Whaspe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Whaspe
In theory, Communism has always been the best system hands down. This is bacause of the equality issue and everyone working for their common good. In reality communism will never work as those in charge corrupt it to stay in charge. Not to mention that with everyone working for the good of everyone you remove the single greatest thing that pushes us to do the things we do... GREED!

This is beyond naive. Communism is not a utopian system. And the so-called utopian of communism will never work either in theory or reality. What prevents it from working is not human greed. What prevents it from working is that it destroys all happiness in individuals. All incentive. Under communism, human beings are reduced to machines, to mindless robots, and treated as such.
Now... you are correct about the practical aspect of communism. It's not just that the utopian stage is a lie, it's that the idea of ever bringing it about is entirely fictional. The whole reason for the promise of the utopian stage is so that the people can have a glorious future to look forward to with a kind of religious faith while the leaders exploit them forever.

A note about communists. Some time ago, I wondered that most communists claim to be anti-government. It struck me as odd that people who claim to be anti-authoritarian would be proponents of the cruelest authoritarian system ever devised by the mind of man. Then, I realized that communists are not really anti-government. They're anti-people. They hate and distrust all people. This is why they propose a system where everyone must be forced into doing what they think is right, for their own good, regardless. Communism is not enlightened. Enlightenment is freedom and tolerance. Enlightenment is allowing your fellow human beings to make their mistakes as you will surely make your own. Communism OTOH is a fantasy of a petty, cruel, and immature mind.

I thought you would have seen the happy face as implication of my sarcasm. You appear to have been really sensitised to the issue, is their a personal connection that I'm missing here? All you've done is rehashed my sentiment but with more emotion.... Thank-you

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: EyeMNathan
According to the CIA World Factbook North Korea has half the population of South Korea yet produces approximately 10% as much electricity, and and has 4% as many telephone main lines in use.

There is a huge difference between the two countries in terms of modern amenities available to the populous.

Same thing happened between east and west Germany.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Proletariat
Communism is just as realistic as anarchy.

It did give poorer countries a flag to rally behind though, and instilled many independence movements. For that I give it props. American/British capitalism has never worked anywhere except rich white countries. Most semi-successful Asian countries are heavily Socialistic.

You mean like Taiwan and Japan? arguably the two MOST successful Asian countries, and coincidentally, the only two countries ranked above the US in economic freedom. Go figure. I dont know where you get this "Heavily socialist" idea from.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Colt45
north korea isnt experiencing communism

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

Broke ass countries... Like North Korea?

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: MAW1082

Originally posted by: Vic
No, I have every idea about Marxism. If you think that freedom, democracy, and peace have any place in Marxism, then it is you who doesn't have the least idea.
The so-called utopian ideal of communism isn't a myth or an unattainable reality kept from us by human greed or weakness. It's just a blatant lie to keep the masses distracted while the rulers exploit them. That's all it ever was. That's why Marx put it there.

Yeah that's exactly why Marx wrote the communist manifesto and the incredibly detailed follow up in das kapital.

If you refer to the famous debate between Mark and Bakunin then you will realize that Marx had not anticipated the way in which communism would manifest itself in the twentieth century.

Marx thought that the social structure that he was supporting, i.e. dictatorship of the proletariat, would benefit society as a whole. Bakunin argued that this dictatorial structure would serve the same purpose as the beourgeoise does within a capitalist system.

So, when you claim that Marx was designing a system to exploit workers, you are exactly wrong. Marx thought he was designing a system to free workers from the exploits of capitalism.

In reference to your "Now I'm glad we know where you stand statement," I do think the economic analysis that Marx performed is almost undoubtedly correct. There are devices within a capitalist system that mandates a large portion of the population of the world is exploiuted by a 'ruling class.' I do not, however, support his assumption that the dictatorship of the proletariat is necessary.

I support equality and free association without coercion for the purpose of production.

Please don't post thing about which you have no knowledge in the future. You are only contributing to the further corruption of many of the impressionable minds on this forum.

It?s possible that I shall make an ass of myself. But in that case one can always get out of it with a little dialectic. I have, of course, so worded my proposition as to be right either way.
?Marx to Engels, 1857

great,after the colllapse of USSR ,marxism seems to have taken refuge in USA.too bad that sa many people are willing to swallow marx`s BS.

in marxism,communism should have taken roots in the most advanced capitalistic countries,so you guys(marxists)should be anarcho-capitalist so you could hurry up the "golden age".

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: MAW1082

Originally posted by: Vic
No, I have every idea about Marxism. If you think that freedom, democracy, and peace have any place in Marxism, then it is you who doesn't have the least idea.
The so-called utopian ideal of communism isn't a myth or an unattainable reality kept from us by human greed or weakness. It's just a blatant lie to keep the masses distracted while the rulers exploit them. That's all it ever was. That's why Marx put it there.

Yeah that's exactly why Marx wrote the communist manifesto and the incredibly detailed follow up in das kapital.

If you refer to the famous debate between Mark and Bakunin then you will realize that Marx had not anticipated the way in which communism would manifest itself in the twentieth century.

Marx thought that the social structure that he was supporting, i.e. dictatorship of the proletariat, would benefit society as a whole. Bakunin argued that this dictatorial structure would serve the same purpose as the beourgeoise does within a capitalist system.

So, when you claim that Marx was designing a system to exploit workers, you are exactly wrong. Marx thought he was designing a system to free workers from the exploits of capitalism.

In reference to your "Now I'm glad we know where you stand statement," I do think the economic analysis that Marx performed is almost undoubtedly correct. There are devices within a capitalist system that mandates a large portion of the population of the world is exploiuted by a 'ruling class.' I do not, however, support his assumption that the dictatorship of the proletariat is necessary.

I support equality and free association without coercion for the purpose of production.

Please don't post thing about which you have no knowledge in the future. You are only contributing to the further corruption of many of the impressionable minds on this forum.

The same can be said of anyone, this is a debate forum after all. I think it's better though if the we would let people make up there own minds though, we aren't that dumb.

 

[MAW1082]

Originally posted by: albatross
It?s possible that I shall make an ass of myself. But in that case one can always get out of it with a little dialectic. I have, of course, so worded my proposition as to be right either way.
?Marx to Engels, 1857

great,after the colllapse of USSR ,marxism seems to have taken refuge in USA.too bad that sa many people are willing to swallow marx`s BS.

in marxism,communism should have taken roots in the most advanced capitalistic countries,so you guys(marxists)should be anarcho-capitalist so you could hurry up the "golden age".

Yeah but you could also be an anarcho-syndicalist or anarcho-socialist . . .

Marx certainly did understand the arguments Bakunin was making, don't get me wrong on that. Marx just thought is was possible for his dictatorship of the proletariat system to turn out successfully.

Marx's most influential writings, however, do not say much about what the future will be like in his 'utopia,' they instead attempt to create an economic model of international capitalism in the present and future.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Colt45
north korea isnt experiencing communism

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

Broke ass countries... Like North Korea?

Just look at Detroit, it looking more like North Korea everyday.

A lot more of the U.S. will follow as well.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Colt45

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: Colt45

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

For instance?

most of africa, south america, fvcked over by imperialists and their own leaders over the years.


well I guess it depends what "working" is to a person.

Capitalism != imperialism, dimbulb :roll:

Right, the same way as:

Modern Practised Communism != Authoritarianism.

Are you gonna agree with me on that?

No. Why should I?

Communism is authoritarianism by its very nature. Its very definition is the forcible taking without due process from one to give to another (and sometimes not even to give).

Capitalism is the private ownership of property. Imperialism is the state exploitation of foreign lands in order to feed the government coffers. Kindly get your definitions straight.

You shouldn't agree because it's wrong.
Any modern capitalist state is imperialistic, if not by state then by the corporations. It's in the nature of capitalism.
Communism does not have to be authoritary. It's just happened to be so.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: MAW1082

Originally posted by: Vic
No, I have every idea about Marxism. If you think that freedom, democracy, and peace have any place in Marxism, then it is you who doesn't have the least idea.
The so-called utopian ideal of communism isn't a myth or an unattainable reality kept from us by human greed or weakness. It's just a blatant lie to keep the masses distracted while the rulers exploit them. That's all it ever was. That's why Marx put it there.

Yeah that's exactly why Marx wrote the communist manifesto and the incredibly detailed follow up in das kapital.

If you refer to the famous debate between Mark and Bakunin then you will realize that Marx had not anticipated the way in which communism would manifest itself in the twentieth century.

Marx thought that the social structure that he was supporting, i.e. dictatorship of the proletariat, would benefit society as a whole. Bakunin argued that this dictatorial structure would serve the same purpose as the beourgeoise does within a capitalist system.

So, when you claim that Marx was designing a system to exploit workers, you are exactly wrong. Marx thought he was designing a system to free workers from the exploits of capitalism.

In reference to your "Now I'm glad we know where you stand statement," I do think the economic analysis that Marx performed is almost undoubtedly correct. There are devices within a capitalist system that mandates a large portion of the population of the world is exploiuted by a 'ruling class.' I do not, however, support his assumption that the dictatorship of the proletariat is necessary.

I support equality and free association without coercion for the purpose of production.

Please don't post thing about which you have no knowledge in the future. You are only contributing to the further corruption of many of the impressionable minds on this forum.

Marx was a liar. Period.

It is impossible for communism to exist and operate without inequality and coercion. Double period.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Colt45
north korea isnt experiencing communism

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

Broke ass countries... Like North Korea?

Just look at Detroit, it looking more like North Korea everyday.

A lot more of the U.S. will follow as well.

Hmmm... So the most liberal city in the US is a complete hell hole eh? Want to see my surprised face?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Colt45
north korea isnt experiencing communism

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

Broke ass countries... Like North Korea?

Just look at Detroit, it looking more like North Korea everyday.

A lot more of the U.S. will follow as well.

Hmmm... So the most liberal city in the US is a complete hell hole eh? Want to see my surprised face?

Coincidence? I think not!

 

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: IvanAndreevich

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: Colt45

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

For instance?

USA?

were broke? that is news.

Yes. Those relying on the Government to take care of them while they do nothing for themselves are broke, thus, proving to many that Capitalism is bad.

Hey, that is what they are told so it must be true.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: Colt45
north korea isnt experiencing communism

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

Broke ass countries... Like North Korea?

Just look at Detroit, it looking more like North Korea everyday.

A lot more of the U.S. will follow as well.

Hmmm... So the most liberal city in the US is a complete hell hole eh? Want to see my surprised face?

Coincidence? I think not!

Detroit is so filled with black poor people, and they vote liberal.
However, the most socialized countries in the world are some of the richest nations.

 

[oculus]

Originally posted by: Amplifier
North and South Korea at night.

Seen this years ago? This is 2005 and communist N. Korea is still a slum.

-Amp

Very cool picture.

However, it has nothing to do with whether or not communism works. Nor does it say that capitalism is better.

In case you missed the memo, N Korea is controled by a brutally oppressive dictator, and is nothing close to communist... despite what they may call themselves.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: oculus

Originally posted by: Amplifier
North and South Korea at night.

Seen this years ago? This is 2005 and communist N. Korea is still a slum.

-Amp

Very cool picture.

However, it has nothing to do with whether or not communism works. Nor does it say that capitalism is better.

In case you missed the memo, N Korea is controled by a brutally oppressive dictator, and is nothing close to communist... despite what they may call themselves.

Well, it doesn't have currency, which means it's kinda communist, but whether it lives up to the communist ideal is not up for debate. Because it clearly doesn't.

 

[oculus]

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: Colt45
north korea isnt experiencing communism

and it case you think capitalism works, check out most broke ass countries on earth

What does every single rich country on earth use? Capitalism. Now go away with your idiotic statements.

However, that does not mean it "works." When you have the worst distribution of wealth in the world, you know there is room for improvement.

Regardless, many social programs have kept America going during times of need (like the depression), and some are very successful (like argricultural extension program). Without those droplets of socialism, our capitalism would have failed miserably years ago.

I guess I just measure success on terms other than "who has the largest stack of cash."

 

[oculus]

Originally posted by: Vic
Communism is authoritarianism by its very nature. Its very definition is the forcible taking without due process from one to give to another (and sometimes not even to give).

Worrying about semantics sucks, but in this case it's important.

You're describing a particular way of distributing wealth.

Communism is simply that you have what you need and you do what you can reasonably do for the common good.

Seperate process from end result, because communism is an end result.

 

[oculus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ntdz
I just pointed out that every single rich country with a high standard of living is capitalist.

Funny that, isn't it? Humanity lived in poverty for thousands of years, then we invent (and allow) freedom and capitalism roughly 300 years, and suddenly we have development, invention, and riches. In many countries today, the poor live better than kings did just a few hundred years ago. And the only political-economic system that can and should take credit for that is capitalism. Don't thank communism, it never invented sh!t, nor did it add to the wealth of the world, nor will it.

Funny that, isn't it? Because soon China will pass us. Their oppressive government using means other than American Capitalism has pulled the country up to near super-power status. 10-20 years from now, we may just be at war. Go capitalism, you always win!

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: oculus
Worrying about semantics sucks, but in this case it's important.

You're describing a particular way of distributing wealth.

Communism is simply that you have what you need and you do what you can reasonably do for the common good.

Seperate process from end result, because communism is an end result.

No. Communism is the way of distributing wealth. The "end result" does not exist except as a deluded fantasy, and a sick one at that. The idea that everything would be roses if we were just sheep or cows. No thank you.

Communism is so riddled with logical fallacies and contradictions, it's not even amusing. Its 2 greatest fallacies IMO are (1) the delusion that people are good when "public" but evil when "private," and (2) that the means justify the ends (wrong: means are ends unto themselves).

Originally posted by: oculus
Funny that, isn't it? Because soon China will pass us. Their oppressive government using means other than American Capitalism has pulled the country up to near super-power status. 10-20 years from now, we may just be at war. Go capitalism, you always win!

HAHAHAHA!!! China IS using "American Capitalism" to pull itself up. That is how it is doing it. Never been to a Wal-Mart? Had it stuck with communism, it would have collapsed economically.

 

[piasabird]

Communism often resembles the tyranny of a Kingdom ruled by a king. In north Korea the peasants or normal working people are taught to praise and worship their leader like a king and the son of their leader took over, so it is not really communism. It is more like a theocracy where a man has replaced God, and they worship the man.

 

[oculus]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: oculus
Funny that, isn't it? Because soon China will pass us. Their oppressive government using means other than American Capitalism has pulled the country up to near super-power status. 10-20 years from now, we may just be at war. Go capitalism, you always win!

HAHAHAHA!!! China IS using "American Capitalism" to pull itself up. That is how it is doing it. Never been to a Wal-Mart? Had it stuck with communism, it would have collapsed economically.

Right, our capitalistic society is helping the "enemy."

That's my point.

You attributed heaven on earth to American Capitalism, and I am simply shining a light on what else our buy buy buy, profit profit profit society is doing.

 

[oculus]

Originally posted by: Vic
[Communism is so riddled with logical fallacies and contradictions, it's not even amusing. Its 2 greatest fallacies IMO are (1) the delusion that people are good when "public" but evil when "private," and (2) that the means justify the ends (wrong: means are ends unto themselves).

What does "means justify the ends" mean in this case? Don't you mean the ENDS justify the MEANS? The reverse doesn't really mean anything. The means don't justify anything, but they certainly lead to an end.

other great fallacies:

- Constant progress and growth is not only always desireable, but always possible
- Privatization of any thing will make that thing more efficient

 

[Proletariat]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: oculus
Worrying about semantics sucks, but in this case it's important.

You're describing a particular way of distributing wealth.

Communism is simply that you have what you need and you do what you can reasonably do for the common good.

Seperate process from end result, because communism is an end result.

No. Communism is the way of distributing wealth. The "end result" does not exist except as a deluded fantasy, and a sick one at that. The idea that everything would be roses if we were just sheep or cows. No thank you.

Communism is so riddled with logical fallacies and contradictions, it's not even amusing. Its 2 greatest fallacies IMO are (1) the delusion that people are good when "public" but evil when "private," and (2) that the means justify the ends (wrong: means are ends unto themselves).

Originally posted by: oculus
Funny that, isn't it? Because soon China will pass us. Their oppressive government using means other than American Capitalism has pulled the country up to near super-power status. 10-20 years from now, we may just be at war. Go capitalism, you always win!

HAHAHAHA!!! China IS using "American Capitalism" to pull itself up. That is how it is doing it. Never been to a Wal-Mart? Had it stuck with communism, it would have collapsed economically.

You are not a sheep or cow right now?

This my friends is a prime example of what Ayn Rand can do to you. Keep dreaming Vic.

Ayn Rand was one of the most manipulative, evil women alive. There is in fact an entire film on f***ed up her life was, and how she f***ed the people around her.

Capitalism is what many countries have to use to compete because of historical factors. American capitalists ruthlessly assassinated and killed millions in their quest to stamp out global communism/socialism. Many countries which felt the effects of older European capitalism and modern American capitalism had to adopt the very practices of their enemy in order to compete because their economies fed other nations for so long and were so behind.