I'm ashamed of Americans who think we should pull out of Iraq

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

So basically, you hope they don't die but if they do it is ok, so long as YOU say they are fighting for a just cause and YOU say they all want to be there. Zzzzzzz.

No, it's tragic that they die. They did die for a just cause and they did volunteer to join and fight for our country.

You're misunderstanding me saying they volunteered as me saying they all want to be there. I don't think any of them want to be there, but I do think they chose to fight for this country against foreign enemies. I wish we didn't have any enemies, but some people hate America and Americans, so they fight on our behalf.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: umbrella39

So basically, you hope they don't die but if they do it is ok, so long as YOU say they are fighting for a just cause and YOU say they all want to be there. Zzzzzzz.

No, it's tragic that they die. They did die for a just cause and they did volunteer to join and fight for our country.

You're misunderstanding me saying they volunteered as me saying they all want to be there. I don't think any of them want to be there, but I do think they chose to fight for this country against foreign enemies. I wish we didn't have any enemies, but some people hate America and Americans, so they fight on our behalf.

It was a completely UNJUST cause. A majority (55%) now think so...I always have. Why don't you give up this Bush and war cheerleading? You're losing.

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: apologetic

I'm not saying there is something wrong with it. I'm saying it's not enough to say to someone who daily is putting their life on the line for the mission in Iraq that you "hope they don't die." There is a NOTICABLE omission from this "support," and that would be that they succeed and win.
Actually, we should continue this discussion in here.

But when you don't support the high-level goals of the campaign, or the fact that there is a campaign at all, how do you define 'succeed'?

L-E-A-V-E!!! (A-L-I-V-E, U-N-W-O-U-N-D-E-D)

Quick, support our troops, sound the R-E-T-R-E-A-T!!!!!

"high-level" goals? The most obvious and fundamental goal in Iraq is human rights and freedoms by helping them set up a democracy. Would this not be a success (and a great improvement) in Iraq?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: apologetic

I'm not saying there is something wrong with it. I'm saying it's not enough to say to someone who daily is putting their life on the line for the mission in Iraq that you "hope they don't die." There is a NOTICABLE omission from this "support," and that would be that they succeed and win.
Actually, we should continue this discussion in here.

But when you don't support the high-level goals of the campaign, or the fact that there is a campaign at all, how do you define 'succeed'?

L-E-A-V-E!!! (A-L-I-V-E, U-N-W-O-U-N-D-E-D)

Quick, support our troops, sound the R-E-T-R-E-A-T!!!!!

"high-level" goals? The most obvious and fundamental goal in Iraq is human rights and freedoms by helping them set up a democracy. Would this not be a success (and a great improvement) in Iraq?

The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

 

[piasabird]

 

[piasabird]

Actually there is evidence that Iraqi terrrorists helped to blow up the Oklahoma federal building. The FBI just chose not to investigate it.

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: Engineer
The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

True, who gives a crap about Iraqis and their rights/freedoms. And, for that matter, who cares about all of the terrorists currently in Iraq fighting our troops. :disgust:

Or would you rather have terrorists fighting our troops on our soil?

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: piasabird
Actually there is evidence that Iraqi terrrorists helped to blow up the Oklahoma federal building. The FBI just chose not to investigate it.

Link? McVeigh and Nichols looked like they worked with Iraq terrorists. :roll:

There's evidence that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudia Arabia and SA is totally unscathed. There's a real terrorist state but noooooooooooo....can't touch this!!!

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer
The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

True, who gives a crap about Iraqis and their rights/freedoms. And, for that matter, who cares about all of the terrorists currently in Iraq fighting our troops. :disgust:

Or would you rather have terrorists fighting our troops on our soil?

Talk about a BS argument. You're delusional if you think that ALL those terrorists were actually terrorists before we went to Iraq. You're also delusional if you think that there aren't terrorists around the world (more than ever since Iraq) that are thinking of ways to get us on our soil. Again, that is about the most BS argument.

What did Iraq have to do with terrorists, they were supposed to have WMD's, not terrorists. They had neither in any significant quantity before the war, now they're the breading ground for the world...thanks to W and brought to you proudly by the PNAC crew. *bah*

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: piasabird
Actually there is evidence that Iraqi terrrorists helped to blow up the Oklahoma federal building. The FBI just chose not to investigate it.

Link? McVeigh and Nichols looked like they worked with Iraq terrorists. :roll:

There's evidence that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudia Arabia and SA is totally unscathed. There's a real terrorist state but noooooooooooo....can't touch this!!!

You should start another thread on this, I'd be interested in links also.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: piasabird
Actually there is evidence that Iraqi terrrorists helped to blow up the Oklahoma federal building. The FBI just chose not to investigate it.

Link? McVeigh and Nichols looked like they worked with Iraq terrorists. :roll:

There's evidence that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudia Arabia and SA is totally unscathed. There's a real terrorist state but noooooooooooo....can't touch this!!!

You should start another thread on this, I'd be interested in links also.

15 of 19 from SA.

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer
The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

True, who gives a crap about Iraqis and their rights/freedoms. And, for that matter, who cares about all of the terrorists currently in Iraq fighting our troops. :disgust:

Or would you rather have terrorists fighting our troops on our soil?

Talk about a BS argument. You're delusional if you think that ALL those terrorists were actually terrorists before we went to Iraq. You're also delusional if you think that there aren't terrorists around the world (more than ever since Iraq) that are thinking of ways to get us on our soil. Again, that is about the most BS argument.

What did Iraq have to do with terrorists, they were supposed to have WMD's, not terrorists. They had neither in any significant quantity before the war, now they're the breading ground for the world...thanks to W and brought to you proudly by the PNAC crew. *bah*

If this is true, why pull out?

 

[RichPLS]

If Iraq is going to be governed by Muslim and not a federal system, they will go back at least a 1000 years in time.
You have 3 distinct groups, with the Sunni's being the outcast.
The Iraqis and beginning to get mad at the U.S. because their treating the terriost with kid gloves.
Can three groups fairly treat each other equal? I'm beginning to think not.

Pull out now or later, it is a lost cause...

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer
The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

True, who gives a crap about Iraqis and their rights/freedoms. And, for that matter, who cares about all of the terrorists currently in Iraq fighting our troops. :disgust:

Or would you rather have terrorists fighting our troops on our soil?

Talk about a BS argument. You're delusional if you think that ALL those terrorists were actually terrorists before we went to Iraq. You're also delusional if you think that there aren't terrorists around the world (more than ever since Iraq) that are thinking of ways to get us on our soil. Again, that is about the most BS argument.

What did Iraq have to do with terrorists, they were supposed to have WMD's, not terrorists. They had neither in any significant quantity before the war, now they're the breading ground for the world...thanks to W and brought to you proudly by the PNAC crew. *bah*

If this is true, why pull out?

To let them reorganize and all get in the same spot so we can bomb them again. DUHHHH!!

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer
The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

True, who gives a crap about Iraqis and their rights/freedoms. And, for that matter, who cares about all of the terrorists currently in Iraq fighting our troops. :disgust:

Or would you rather have terrorists fighting our troops on our soil?

Talk about a BS argument. You're delusional if you think that ALL those terrorists were actually terrorists before we went to Iraq. You're also delusional if you think that there aren't terrorists around the world (more than ever since Iraq) that are thinking of ways to get us on our soil. Again, that is about the most BS argument.

What did Iraq have to do with terrorists, they were supposed to have WMD's, not terrorists. They had neither in any significant quantity before the war, now they're the breading ground for the world...thanks to W and brought to you proudly by the PNAC crew. *bah*

If this is true, why pull out?

Pull out, bring troops home, place money towards something better than Iraq. Staying will create more terrorists WORLDWIDE than leaving Iraq would ever do. I sincerely hope that the Iraqies hurry up and finish their constitution (although I suspect it to be a muslim based version) and get their own goddamn forces moving. If the terrorists want to blow them up after we leave, they'll learn to take care of itself.

Still doesn't change my support for the troops one bit. Nothing you've said says that I don't support the troops to the fullest. Their mission is a bastard one....the troops are living...and sadly dieing unjustly....beings.

 

[RichPLS]

The Kurds are not asking for "federalism" as it exists in Germany or as it used to exist here...What they mean by federalism is an independent Kurdish state, that will be sovereign and in complete control of it's own resources. A Kurdish state with it's own army. Clearly, the Kurds see this as merely an interim step to complete and total separation from their Arab neighbors to the South.

Sometimes words really do have different meanings depending upon the context.

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Pull out, bring troops home, place money towards something better than Iraq. Staying will create more terrorists WORLDWIDE than leaving Iraq would ever do. I sincerely hope that the Iraqies hurry up and finish their constitution (although I suspect it to be a muslim based version) and get their own goddamn forces moving. If the terrorists want to blow them up after we leave, they'll learn to take care of itself.

Still doesn't change my support for the troops one bit. Nothing you've said says that I don't support the troops to the fullest. Their mission is a bastard one....the troops are living...and sadly dieing unjustly....beings.

So we should pull out of Iraq because of financial concerns? Shouldn't you file that under your BS argument label? Iraqis...terrorists...torture... any of this ring a bell?

The Iraqi's wouldn't have any "goddamn forces" if we hadn't been there to train them to fight these terrorists. You obviously don't have much respect for Iraqis or the abilities of our troops.

BTW, I'm not arguing to prove you "don't support the troops to the fullest." I don't care to argue that, though it wouldn't take much to do so. That being said, our troops kick a$$, and your treating them like wimps doesn't support that idea.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer
Pull out, bring troops home, place money towards something better than Iraq. Staying will create more terrorists WORLDWIDE than leaving Iraq would ever do. I sincerely hope that the Iraqies hurry up and finish their constitution (although I suspect it to be a muslim based version) and get their own goddamn forces moving. If the terrorists want to blow them up after we leave, they'll learn to take care of itself.

Still doesn't change my support for the troops one bit. Nothing you've said says that I don't support the troops to the fullest. Their mission is a bastard one....the troops are living...and sadly dieing unjustly....beings.

So we should pull out of Iraq because of financial concerns? Shouldn't you file that under your BS argument label? Iraqis...terrorists...torture... any of this ring a bell?

The Iraqi's wouldn't have any "goddamn forces" if we hadn't been there to train them to fight these terrorists. You obviously don't have much respect for Iraqis or the abilities of our troops.

BTW, I'm not arguing to prove you "don't support the troops to the fullest." I don't care to argue that, though it wouldn't take much to do so. That being said, our troops kick a$$, and your treating them like wimps doesn't support that idea.

Too bad. I don't think so. As for the Iraqies, they need to do what you Republicans preach to the American people....personal accountability. Do it their goddamn selves.

I'm not treating anybody like wimps. The war was a goddamn sham and you're spinning it like a cotton gin. Sorry, but you're in the minority opinion now...get used to it.

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: RichPLS
The Kurds are not asking for "federalism" as it exists in Germany or as it used to exist here...What they mean by federalism is an independent Kurdish state, that will be sovereign and in complete control of it's own resources. A Kurdish state with it's own army. Clearly, the Kurds see this as merely an interim step to complete and total separation from their Arab neighbors to the South.

Sometimes words really do have different meanings depending upon the context.

Americans had disagreements like this when we were forming our country. This is a part of the process in forming the government, it is not an irreconcilable difference.

We should stay and support them until the job is done.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: RichPLS
The Kurds are not asking for "federalism" as it exists in Germany or as it used to exist here...What they mean by federalism is an independent Kurdish state, that will be sovereign and in complete control of it's own resources. A Kurdish state with it's own army. Clearly, the Kurds see this as merely an interim step to complete and total separation from their Arab neighbors to the South.

Sometimes words really do have different meanings depending upon the context.

Americans had disagreements like this when we were forming our country. This is a part of the process in forming the government, it is not an irreconcilable difference.

We should stay and support them until the job is done.

Write constitution - Get out.

 

[apologetic]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: apologetic
So we should pull out of Iraq because of financial concerns? Shouldn't you file that under your BS argument label? Iraqis...terrorists...torture... any of this ring a bell?

The Iraqi's wouldn't have any "goddamn forces" if we hadn't been there to train them to fight these terrorists. You obviously don't have much respect for Iraqis or the abilities of our troops.

BTW, I'm not arguing to prove you "don't support the troops to the fullest." I don't care to argue that, though it wouldn't take much to do so. That being said, our troops kick a$$, and your treating them like wimps doesn't support that idea.

Too bad. I don't think so. As for the Iraqies, they need to do what you Republicans preach to the American people....personal accountability. Do it their goddamn selves.

I'm not treating anybody like wimps. The war was a goddamn sham and you're spinning it like a cotton gin. Sorry, but you're in the minority opinion now...get used to it.

This might come as a shock, but I don't think you are in the majority when you say Iraqies should "do it their goddamn selves." Good thing the French didn't think the same thing about us during our revolution. Aren't we trying to help them do it themselves in forming a democracy?

Funny thing you compared me to using cotton gin because that machine was used the pull the crap out of the fluff.

Do you normally cheer on your team by insisting that they give up? Okay, losers then. You are treating our soldiers like losers, like they have already lost this winnable war.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: apologetic
So we should pull out of Iraq because of financial concerns? Shouldn't you file that under your BS argument label? Iraqis...terrorists...torture... any of this ring a bell?

The Iraqi's wouldn't have any "goddamn forces" if we hadn't been there to train them to fight these terrorists. You obviously don't have much respect for Iraqis or the abilities of our troops.

BTW, I'm not arguing to prove you "don't support the troops to the fullest." I don't care to argue that, though it wouldn't take much to do so. That being said, our troops kick a$$, and your treating them like wimps doesn't support that idea.

Too bad. I don't think so. As for the Iraqies, they need to do what you Republicans preach to the American people....personal accountability. Do it their goddamn selves.

I'm not treating anybody like wimps. The war was a goddamn sham and you're spinning it like a cotton gin. Sorry, but you're in the minority opinion now...get used to it.

This might come as a shock, but I don't think you are in the majority when you say Iraqies should "do it their goddamn selves." Good thing the French didn't think the same thing about us during our revolution. Aren't we trying to help them do it themselves in forming a democracy?

Funny thing you compared me to using cotton gin because that machine was used the pull the crap out of the fluff.

Do you normally cheer on your team by insisting that they give up? Okay, losers then. You are treating our soldiers like losers, like they have already lost this winnable war.

You're still losing. 55% of the US public think it wasn't worth fighting in the first place. 33% support a full and immediate pullout with over 20% more supporting at least a partial withdrawl = over 53% = majority. So yes, I'm in the majority. Get used to it.

I'm NEVER going to support this war. You have lost in your feable quest.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer
The first goal should have been to stay out. The best goal now is to cut our losses and GTFO (Get the fvck out). My support for our troops fighting a "BASTARD" war still stands, which addresses your OP entirely.

True, who gives a crap about Iraqis and their rights/freedoms. And, for that matter, who cares about all of the terrorists currently in Iraq fighting our troops. :disgust:

Or would you rather have terrorists fighting our troops on our soil?

LMAO, your playbook copy is old. Update it. Explain how the insurgeants would orgainze an effort that we would have to fight using our troops here in the states. Us being in Iraq != Terrorist not able to attack us here. The fear has been ingrained in you so hard you don't even make sense when you try and defend your words. And as for the Iraqis and their freedoms... not worth 1 dead American soldier.

 

[mgleason007]

Originally posted by: apologetic

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: apologetic
So we should pull out of Iraq because of financial concerns? Shouldn't you file that under your BS argument label? Iraqis...terrorists...torture... any of this ring a bell?

The Iraqi's wouldn't have any "goddamn forces" if we hadn't been there to train them to fight these terrorists. You obviously don't have much respect for Iraqis or the abilities of our troops.

BTW, I'm not arguing to prove you "don't support the troops to the fullest." I don't care to argue that, though it wouldn't take much to do so. That being said, our troops kick a$$, and your treating them like wimps doesn't support that idea.

Too bad. I don't think so. As for the Iraqies, they need to do what you Republicans preach to the American people....personal accountability. Do it their goddamn selves.

I'm not treating anybody like wimps. The war was a goddamn sham and you're spinning it like a cotton gin. Sorry, but you're in the minority opinion now...get used to it.

This might come as a shock, but I don't think you are in the majority when you say Iraqies should "do it their goddamn selves." Good thing the French didn't think the same thing about us during our revolution. Aren't we trying to help them do it themselves in forming a democracy?

What are you talking about? The French helped us fight GB because we allied with them and they would do just about anything to win some sort of battle against GB. The US is helping Iraq to fight..... Iraq? Did I get that right? Killing thousands of innocent civilians and 1800+ US troops is helping Iraq? I could go on, but I think I sufficiently tore down your argument.

 

[Muerta de Poly]

Originally posted by: Strk

The history of U.S. military action and war has been to fight for human rights and freedoms.

Name a single war that has been fought for human rights. (and no "but it helped human rights" wars either.)

And I'm not even going to limit it to the the U.S.

Well, for one, I can think of the U.S. Revolution.