Illegal Immigration Issue: Securing our borders

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Stunt
The mods will never sticky such a worthless thread lined with propoganda.
Had this guy posted a worthless thread supporting your views ,along with links .would you not have called that thread the most accurate portayal of this subject you have read in years?? rofl

You have no clue whatsoever!
The thread is useless...
It's full of biased websites with obvious motives and offered little for opinion other than a bunch of crap about terrorists and denying hes racist :roll:

The real problem with you is I fear a simple one.
You are canadian and you really have no clue what it means to be an American or to feel patriotism the way most Amewricans do!!

Yet there are Cnadians who understand how we feel.
Hell-If it wasn`t for our Cnadian brothers and sisters immediate help that fateful day of 9/11 when we closed our airspace and the Cnadians allowed us to land almost all our aircraft in Cnada and then they took those passengers in and fed them and was very hospitable. We have a lot to thank our Canadian friends for.
But none of your arguments on this subject make sense due to the fact you really do not understand the subject,

have a nice day!!
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: Stunt
The mods will never sticky such a worthless thread lined with propoganda.
Had this guy posted a worthless thread supporting your views ,along with links .would you not have called that thread the most accurate portayal of this subject you have read in years?? rofl

You have no clue whatsoever!
The thread is useless...
It's full of biased websites with obvious motives and offered little for opinion other than a bunch of crap about terrorists and denying hes racist :roll:

The real problem with you is I fear a simple one.
You are canadian and you really have no clue what it means to be an American or to feel patriotism the way most Amewricans do!!

Yet there are Cnadians who understand how we feel.
Hell-If it wasn`t for our Cnadian brothers and sisters immediate help that fateful day of 9/11 when we closed our airspace and the Cnadians allowed us to land almost all our aircraft in Cnada and then they took those passengers in and fed them and was very hospitable. We have a lot to thank our Canadian friends for.
But none of your arguments on this subject make sense due to the fact you really do not understand the subject,

have a nice day!!
So you are admitting your blind nationalism trumps logic and fact based reasoning...How sad. This "just cuz" mindset is absolutely disgusting. I have studied this subject extensively and will be more in tune with the subject than you'll ever be. Some would argue my perspective is less biased and true because I am able to be on the outside looking in. This is much like many of the foriegn experts in our univiersities; you cannot desrespect their knowledge just because of their nationality. One can study an issue and critically consider from another location other than heavily affected regions; much like many Americans were able to understand the hardships of people in New Orleans through documentaries, news, information. Besides I am 45mins from the border and do spend time in the states. I am not oblivious to your situation; not to mention I live in a haevy farming area and is has a very high ratio of illegal immigrants.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: thecoffeeguy
Forgot to put one other website up (not sure if I did), but this is a very good website with tons of information (feel free to check it out stunt)

http://www.alipac.us/index.php
What did you do, type "illegal immigrants are bad" and link all of the sites on here?
Just because they support 'legal immigration' means squat. They are using it as a cover for their motives...just like the rest of the propoganda sites.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Puffnstuff
Stunt is a canadian and doesn't give a sh!t about the U.S. so don't argue with the troll.
I care deeply for success in the US...i have mentioned this before. Our countries are very much dependent on each other and I want what is best for the US. It will be illegal immigrants who will be the primary driver for American growth in this century. I have already posted an article explaining how illegals increase wages for more educated people and how illegals are significant contributers to productivity and growth.

Over time illegals will end up raising their standard of living to the levels of average Americans and this increased consumer base will drive most growth in the States. Countries are various sizes (Canada is 30m, UK is 60m, US is 300m, etc) so population is not relevant and a fixed job market is false.

Again, calling me a troll because of nationality should be a bannable offense. I don't see it as anything other than an attempted insult and is clearly not on topic or part of relevant discussion.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: thecoffeeguy
Originally posted by: Stunt

There's lots of info here as well...but I perfer to get a balanced, well researched point of view. I have read numerous studies and articles on the topic, your sites just don't fit the bill. Most are run by those who are misdirecting their own frustrations, it's always someone else's fault for everything. Blame deflection is quite apparent with this issue...and your links jump through hoops to do just that.
Maybe you should try different web sites, ones with better, more reliable information.
Yours are obviously not fitting the bill.

Maybe instead of interpeting things the way you choose and how you want to see things, read the information for what it is.

No spin is great stuff.
No spin?!...your sites are biased towards one point of view. They are special interest groups lobbying government to do something. How can you say your propoganda sites are NOT spin!? Wow...just wow...

You are representing one side of the argument and somehow fool yourself into thinking it's unbiased and just.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: BoomerD
"Dollar figures for medical and the like are irrelevant as that is a fixed cost associated with caring and developing your productivity and growth (people). "

Irrelevant? How so? Why should the Americn people bear the cost of providing medical treatment for foreign nationals, when we don't even provide it for our own citizens? MANY emeergency rooms have had to close/restrict services because so many illegals use them as their "family doctor", causing 4 to 8 hour waits for "real emergencies" (other than life-theatening ones of course) and hospitals are reeling from the costs of threating them, that they don't get re-imbursed for.
Kahleeforneeya's social system is awash in red-ink from having to support so many illegals who don't/can't work. Yes, it's true, illegals can & DO get welfare, food stamps and medical care. All it takes is false documents, and they're in...
Maybe the states/federal government needs to start charging the various countries for providing for THEIR citizens...the USA shouln't be the world's welfare agancy...
Add to that the costs of educatiing the children of illegal immigrants, (especially with the ESL classes they have to have to begin to be able to learn) and you end up with schools that are teetering on the brink of bankrupcy because of the added (and un-reimbursed ) costs...
Our House of Representatives has proposed making it a felony to be an illegal immigrant. While I might like the idea of such a thing, I also realize that it won't work, will never happen, and won't solve the problem. They need to go after the employere who hire these people, many of whom either have NO documentation that allows them to work here, or have forged documentation, much of which is obviously phony, but the employers need the manpower, so they overlook such trivialities...
$100K fines for EACH violation would start to get the attention of the employers, and while I certainly don't want to put someone out of business, fining them for their illegal activities MIGHT cause them to stop...I know if I get a speeding ticket, I'm certainly more aware of how fast I'm going...for a while...
You can look at costs all day. Look at how much money medical and education costs for domestics...probably a ton of money as well. It's a cost associated with investing in your productivity and growth (human capital). To determine costs associated with illegals you cannot look at one side of the equation; the expense side, as you forget the consumer spending, increased productivity, taxes through sales and property, etc. If you consider any American based on healthcare and education costs; you are always going to get a net negative; does that mean education and healthcare for these people is not justified or a waste of money? Of course not. Does having a higher population have any impact on costs of healthcare? Of course not. The more people receiving heathcare means the more people contributing to help pay for these services. This is how we see germany, UK, Canada, Australia all with effective healthcare; all with different numbers of people.

If you look at the costs of every additional American, you will always see red...I guess the only way to get healthcare and education costs to zero is NO people...now there's a good idea :roll:. Again, you could make things simpler on yourself...instead of shooting yourself in the foot economically; ie. huge fines for corperation; increasing consumer costs for goods and services (namely food - affects the least wealthy), and trying to eliminate vast amounts of labour (13m illegals in the US), one can significantly offset these supposed costs through taxation, as legal citizens. The faster you let these people become citizens, the faster they will become more productive, the faster you will see large increases in productivity and growth.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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An interesting thought I had...it seems we are applying a double standard. We say that infringing copyright by downloading a movie isn't stealing....because they're not losing a product. But we do say it is stealing when talking about immigrants. If an immigrant is just working here and being taxed; isn't getting welfare or whatever they can get away with nowadays, then they're not stealing from the government, right? We would keep our nation free of military threat anyways.
 
Dec 30, 2004
12,553
2
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Originally posted by: fitzov
Booo! I wan't my dirt cheap labor!

This is bad in the long run. The people employing these immigrants (like McD) can afford to and should pay 8-10$ per hour. A cheeseburger costs 30 cents or so to make. But they sell it for 89 cents. Even factoring in rent and paying for the people making the burger and taking the order, it costs maybe 55 cents. That means McD is making over 50% profit. That money is not going back to the middle class in America, it is going to the people up top who already have money; it is making them richer. If illegals were not allowed to work, and companies got busted for hiring them, places like McD would have to pay a lot more to get and keep their workers. This would be a good thing, as it would help redistribute the wealth. But as it is now, this cheap labor is sending all the money straight to the top (and a little out of the country). Eventually we won't have a choice but to eat at McD, because we can't afford anything else. Same goes with Walmart. McD should not be making 50% profit and keeping it at the top. We need immigration laws to force companies to pay Americans an American wage. I'd have so much more money saved to invest now if I had been payed $10/hour when I worked at McD.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: fitzov
Booo! I wan't my dirt cheap labor!

This is bad in the long run. The people employing these immigrants (like McD) can afford to and should pay 8-10$ per hour. A cheeseburger costs 30 cents or so to make. But they sell it for 89 cents. Even factoring in rent and paying for the people making the burger and taking the order, it costs maybe 55 cents. That means McD is making over 50% profit. That money is not going back to the middle class in America, it is going to the people up top who already have money; it is making them richer. If illegals were not allowed to work, and companies got busted for hiring them, places like McD would have to pay a lot more to get and keep their workers. This would be a good thing, as it would help redistribute the wealth. But as it is now, this cheap labor is sending all the money straight to the top (and a little out of the country). Eventually we won't have a choice but to eat at McD, because we can't afford anything else. Same goes with Walmart. McD should not be making 50% profit and keeping it at the top. We need immigration laws to force companies to pay Americans an American wage. I'd have so much more money saved to invest now if I had been payed $10/hour when I worked at McD.


exactly. has the cost of houseing gone down from all the illegals employed by developers to build them? Has the cost of meat gone down from meat packing companies hiring illegals?
 

thecoffeeguy

Senior member
Apr 12, 2001
344
0
76
Stunt, you see it anyway you like because obviously you will do as you please.

Oh ya, I found your blog:

http://whitelaw.blogspot.com/2005/11/illegal-aliens-drain-or-gain-to.html


You either don't have all the information or choose to simply ignore it.

The simply fact is that the American people are concerned about this issue and it is growing daily

You talk about political spin and the websites have no merit, yet you don't answer anyones direct questions regarding these issues. You choose to walk around it and bring up another subject so you don't have to answer the question.

I could care less what you think because your stance is clear. The great thing is, most Americans do care about this, because, remember, you don't care.

I'll continue to voice my opinion because I do care about my country and so do most Americans.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
This is a good start. If illegals get the message down in Mexico that there is no more U.S. or State Government Tit to suck on maybe it will slow down the flow across the border.

Now it's way past time to punish corrupt Businesses and Corporations that hire illegals.

7-11-2006 Colorado passes toughest U.S. immigration policy in the U.S.

DENVER - Colorado lawmakers ended a five-day special session on illegal immigration with a resounding approval of several bills that Democrats call the toughest in the nation

The legislation sent late Monday to Republican Gov. Bill Owens would force a million people receiving state or federal aid in Colorado to verify their citizenship.

It would deny most non-emergency state benefits to illegal immigrants 18 years old and older ? forcing people to prove legal residency when applying for benefits or renewing their eligibility.
 

thecoffeeguy

Senior member
Apr 12, 2001
344
0
76
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is a good start. If illegals get the message down in Mexico that there is no more U.S. or State Government Tit to suck on maybe it will slow down the flow across the border.

Now it's way past time to punish corrupt Businesses and Corporations that hire illegals.

7-11-2006 Colorado passes toughest U.S. immigration policy in the U.S.

DENVER - Colorado lawmakers ended a five-day special session on illegal immigration with a resounding approval of several bills that Democrats call the toughest in the nation

The legislation sent late Monday to Republican Gov. Bill Owens would force a million people receiving state or federal aid in Colorado to verify their citizenship.

It would deny most non-emergency state benefits to illegal immigrants 18 years old and older ? forcing people to prove legal residency when applying for benefits or renewing their eligibility.

Very good start.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is a good start. If illegals get the message down in Mexico that there is no more U.S. or State Government Tit to suck on maybe it will slow down the flow across the border.

Now it's way past time to punish corrupt Businesses and Corporations that hire illegals.

7-11-2006 Colorado passes toughest U.S. immigration policy in the U.S.

DENVER - Colorado lawmakers ended a five-day special session on illegal immigration with a resounding approval of several bills that Democrats call the toughest in the nation

The legislation sent late Monday to Republican Gov. Bill Owens would force a million people receiving state or federal aid in Colorado to verify their citizenship.

It would deny most non-emergency state benefits to illegal immigrants 18 years old and older ? forcing people to prove legal residency when applying for benefits or renewing their eligibility.


there are several loop holes in this bill and its all fluff right now. a few months from now it wont mean crap. :| this special session was a total waste of time.
 

TGS

Golden Member
May 3, 2005
1,849
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
This is a good start. If illegals get the message down in Mexico that there is no more U.S. or State Government Tit to suck on maybe it will slow down the flow across the border.

Now it's way past time to punish corrupt Businesses and Corporations that hire illegals.

7-11-2006 Colorado passes toughest U.S. immigration policy in the U.S.

DENVER - Colorado lawmakers ended a five-day special session on illegal immigration with a resounding approval of several bills that Democrats call the toughest in the nation

The legislation sent late Monday to Republican Gov. Bill Owens would force a million people receiving state or federal aid in Colorado to verify their citizenship.

It would deny most non-emergency state benefits to illegal immigrants 18 years old and older ? forcing people to prove legal residency when applying for benefits or renewing their eligibility.

Give it a few weeks and it will all but disappear just like that anti-corruption legislation did. The problem starts at the American Employers hiring illegals at lower wages, and getting hooked on that price point for their operating costs. Or they go the full blown illegal route and become tax cheats. Either way the Employers are the people shifting the burden of "illegal" immigrants on to the rest of the American populus, while lining their *own* pockets in the process.

Honestly if you *want* to stop the problem, address the source.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,323
14,725
146
While illegal immigration has always been something of a problem here, (remember the big amnesty program in the late 80's?) IMO, this was brought up by congress as some kind of smoke screen, to attract the attention of the American people, while something else gets slipped by us in the background unnoticed...
I too believe that noting will really be accomplished by all the brouhaha and talking heads.
What perhaps bothers me the most, is the protests by the illegals, trying to force the US into giving them legal status. My neighbor married a Filipino lady. Took them about 2 years to get things completed thru INS, and several thousand $$$ by the time they were all through. Why should those who can just walk across our borders get off any cheaper/easier?
Nope, Box them all up, and send them home. If they want to come here, force them to do it the legal way.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,874
4,986
136
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: fitzov
Booo! I wan't my dirt cheap labor!

This is bad in the long run. The people employing these immigrants (like McD) can afford to and should pay 8-10$ per hour. A cheeseburger costs 30 cents or so to make. But they sell it for 89 cents. Even factoring in rent and paying for the people making the burger and taking the order, it costs maybe 55 cents. That means McD is making over 50% profit. That money is not going back to the middle class in America, it is going to the people up top who already have money; it is making them richer. If illegals were not allowed to work, and companies got busted for hiring them, places like McD would have to pay a lot more to get and keep their workers. This would be a good thing, as it would help redistribute the wealth. But as it is now, this cheap labor is sending all the money straight to the top (and a little out of the country). Eventually we won't have a choice but to eat at McD, because we can't afford anything else. Same goes with Walmart. McD should not be making 50% profit and keeping it at the top. We need immigration laws to force companies to pay Americans an American wage. I'd have so much more money saved to invest now if I had been payed $10/hour when I worked at McD.


exactly. has the cost of houseing gone down from all the illegals employed by developers to build them? Has the cost of meat gone down from meat packing companies hiring illegals?

No, silly; it simply hasn't risen as fast as it would have.

;)
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Originally posted by: feralkid
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: fitzov
Booo! I wan't my dirt cheap labor!

This is bad in the long run. The people employing these immigrants (like McD) can afford to and should pay 8-10$ per hour. A cheeseburger costs 30 cents or so to make. But they sell it for 89 cents. Even factoring in rent and paying for the people making the burger and taking the order, it costs maybe 55 cents. That means McD is making over 50% profit. That money is not going back to the middle class in America, it is going to the people up top who already have money; it is making them richer. If illegals were not allowed to work, and companies got busted for hiring them, places like McD would have to pay a lot more to get and keep their workers. This would be a good thing, as it would help redistribute the wealth. But as it is now, this cheap labor is sending all the money straight to the top (and a little out of the country). Eventually we won't have a choice but to eat at McD, because we can't afford anything else. Same goes with Walmart. McD should not be making 50% profit and keeping it at the top. We need immigration laws to force companies to pay Americans an American wage. I'd have so much more money saved to invest now if I had been payed $10/hour when I worked at McD.


exactly. has the cost of houseing gone down from all the illegals employed by developers to build them? Has the cost of meat gone down from meat packing companies hiring illegals?

No, silly; it simply hasn't risen as fast as it would have.

;)

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, damn they were doing me a favor and i didnt even know it.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Cheaper labour should in theory drop prices for the consumer. Even if this doesn't happen; in the case of housing for example, the developers, stock owners, and companies get larger profits which in turn allows for investment in infrastructure or other purchases.

Give someone who makes $200k a year a $20k tax cut and he'll buy a boat or something significant enough to allow job creation and investment. Give 20,000 people a $1 tax cut and they will buy some insignificant product without infrastructure investment or job creation. Of course, the rich are more able to pay higher taxes and the masses don't like the idea of tax cuts for the rich...usually it is the most stimulating for the economy. (when it comes to tax cuts)
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Cheaper labour should in theory drop prices for the consumer. Even if this doesn't happen; in the case of housing for example, the developers, stock owners, and companies get larger profits which in turn allows for investment in infrastructure or other purchases.

Give someone who makes $200k a year a $20k tax cut and he'll buy a boat or something significant enough to allow job creation and investment. Give 20,000 people a $1 tax cut and they will buy some insignificant product without infrastructure investment or job creation. Of course, the rich are more able to pay higher taxes and the masses don't like the idea of tax cuts for the rich...usually it is the most stimulating for the economy. (when it comes to tax cuts)

The economy as a whole isn't important to the average person. I don't give a damn if a tax cut for the rich will make the GDP double if the only people see the benifit are the rich. What is best for the average person.
 

the Chase

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2005
1,403
0
0
Stunt has a lot of insight on how economies work. He's right (in my view) on a lot of stuff. Immigration is good for the economy. So are babies. But we should try and get these benefits by opening our borders to more LEGAL immigrants (if we decide the economic benefits outweigh the problems/negatives). That way we can somewhat screen people and not allow just anyone into the country. We have seperate countries and seperate militaries etc. for a reason. Different people want to live under different LAWS. Unfortunately you can't choose your parents or what country you are born "into". It probably is unrealistic to think that you can actually secure our borders to the point of not letting in any illegals at all, but should we at least try? If one country depletes it's soil/people into nothingness should any other "better run" country just allow the other country to move in and take residence?

Sorry for run-on paragraph.
 

Antisocial Virge

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 1999
6,578
0
0
Posted on another board but it seemed to make some valid points. Like how no companies are now punished for hiring illegals and how easy it would be for them to be checked to see if they are.

Reclaiming the Issues: "It's an Illegal Employer Problem"
By Thom Hartmann

Every time the media - or a Democrat - uses the phrase "Illegal Immigration" they are promoting one of Karl Rove's most potent Republican Party frames.

The reality is that we don't have an "Illegal Immigration" problem in America. We have an "Illegal Employer" problem.

Yet it's almost never mentioned in the mainstream media, because to point it out could slightly reduce the profits and CEO salaries of many of America's largest multi-state and multinational corporations - who both own the media and contribute heavily to conservative politicians. Republicans would prefer that the "criminals" covered in the press are working people, and that corporate and CEO criminals not get discussed.

As the Busby/Bilray contest showed, "illegal immigration" is a red-hot issue for American voters. The Democrat Busby was way ahead until she committed a faux pas before a group of Latinos, leading to (false) media reports (particularly on right-wing talk radio) that she was encouraging illegal immigrants to vote for her in the upcoming election. Her Republican opponent seized on this and hammered the district with ads for the last few days of the campaign (while voting machines curiously went home at night with some of the poll workers), and now a Republican lobbyist has taken the seat of a Republican congressman convicted of illegal deals with Republican lobbyists.

Encouraging a rapid increase in the workforce by encouraging companies to hire non-citizens is one of the three most potent tools conservatives since Ronald Reagan have used to convert the American middle class into the American working poor. (The other two are destroying the governmental protections that keep labor unions viable, and ending tariffs while promoting trade deals like NAFTA/WTO/GATT that export manufacturing jobs.)

As David Ricardo pointed out with his "Iron Law of Labor" (published in his 1814 treatise "On Labor") when labor markets are tight, wages go up. When labor markets are awash in workers willing to work at the bottom of the pay scale, unskilled and semi-skilled wages overall will decrease to what Ricardo referred to as "subsistence" levels.

Two years later, in 1816, Ricardo pointed out in his "On Profits" that when the cost of labor goes down, the result usually isn't a decrease in product prices, but, instead, an increase in corporate and CEO profits. (This is because the marketplace sets prices, but the cost of labor helps set profits. For example, when Nike began manufacturing shoes in Third World countries with labor costs below US labor costs, it didn't lead to $15 Nikes - their price held, and even increased, because the market would bear it. Instead, that reduction in labor costs led to Nike CEO Phil Knight becoming a multi-billionaire.)

Republicans understand this very, very well, although they never talk about it. Democrats seem not to have read Ricardo, although the average American gets it at a gut level.

Thus, Americans are concerned that a "flood of illegal immigrants" coming primarily across our southern border is, to paraphrase Lou Dobbs, "wiping out the American middle class." And there is considerable truth to it, as part of the three-part campaign mentioned earlier.

But Dobbs and his fellow Republicans say the solution is to "secure our border" with a fence like that used by East Germany, but that stretches a distance about the same as that from Washington, DC to Chicago. It'll be a multi-billion-dollar boon to Halliburton and Bechtel, who will undoubtedly get the construction and maintenance contracts, but it won't stop illegal immigration. (Instead, people will legally come in on tourist and other visas, and not leave when their visas expire.)

The fact is that we had an open border with Mexico for several centuries, and "illegal immigration" was never a serious problem. Before Reagan's presidency, an estimated million or so people a year came into the US from Mexico - and the same number, more or less, left the US for Mexico at the end of the agricultural harvest season. Very few stayed, because there weren't jobs for them.

Non-citizens didn't have access to the non-agricultural US job market, in large part because of the power of US labor unions (before Reagan 25% of the workforce was unionized; today the private workforce is about 7% unionized), and because companies were unwilling to risk having non-tax-deductible labor expenses on their books by hiring undocumented workers without valid Social Security numbers.

But Reagan put an end to that. His 1986 amnesty program, combined with his aggressive war on organized labor (begun in 1981), in effect told both employers and non-citizens that there would be few penalties and many rewards to increasing the US labor pool (and thus driving down wages) with undocumented immigrants. A million people a year continued to come across our southern border, but they stopped returning to Latin America every fall because instead of seasonal work they were able to find permanent jobs.

The magnet drawing them? Illegal Employers.

Yet in the American media, Illegal Employers are almost never mentioned.

Lou Dobbs, the most visible media champion of this issue, always starts his discussion of the issue with a basic syllogism - 1. Our border is porous. 2. People are coming across our porous border and diluting our labor markets, driving down US wages. 3. Therefore we must make the border less porous.

Lou's syllogism, however, ignores the real problem, the magnet drawing people to risk life and limb to illegally enter this country - Illegal Employers. Our borders have always been porous (and even with a "fence" will still allow through "tourists" by the millions), but we've never had a problem like this before.

And it's not just because poverty has increased in Mexico - today, about half of Mexico lives on less than $2 a day, but 50 years ago half of Mexico also lived on the equivalent of $2 today. Our trade and agricultural policies are harmful to Mexican farmers (and must be changed!), but we were nearly as predatory fifty years ago (remember the rubber and fruit companies, particularly in Central America?).

Yet fifty years ago we didn't have an "illegal immigration" problem, because back then we didn't have a conservative "Illegal Employer" problem.

As the Washington Post noted in an article by Hsu and Lydersen on June 19, 2006:

"Between 1999 and 2003, work-site enforcement operations were scaled back 95 percent by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, which subsequently was merged into the Homeland Security Department. The number of employers prosecuted for unlawfully employing immigrants dropped from 182 in 1999 to four in 2003, and fines collected declined from $3.6 million to $212,000, according to federal statistics.
"In 1999, the United States initiated fines against 417 companies. In 2004, it issued fine notices to three."

The hiring crimes of Illegal Employers are being ignored by the law, and rewarded by the economic systems of the nation.

Proof that this simple reality is ignored in our media (much to the delight of Republicans) is everywhere you look. For example, check out a series of national polls on illegal immigration done over the past year at www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm. A typical poll question is like this one from an NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll conducted in June, 2006:

"When it comes to the immigration bill, the Senate and the House of Representatives disagree with one another about what should be done on the issue of illegal immigration.
"Many in the House of Representatives favor strengthening security at the borders, including building a seven-hundred-mile fence along the border with Mexico to help keep illegal immigrants from entering the United States, and they favor deporting immigrants who are already in the United States illegally.

"Many in the Senate favor strengthening security at the borders, including building a three-hundred-and-seventy-mile fence along the border with Mexico to help keep illegal immigrants from entering the United States, and they favor a guest worker program to allow illegal immigrants who have jobs and who have been here for more than two years to remain in the United States.

"Which of these approaches would you prefer?"

The question: "Or would you prefer companies that employ undocumented workers be severely fined or put out of business?" wasn't even asked. The word "employer" appears nowhere in any of the questions in that poll. Nor is it in the CBS News immigration poll. Or in the Associated Press immigration poll. Or in the Fox News immigration poll.

Only the CNN poll asked the question: "Would you favor increasing penalties for employers who hire illegal immigrants?" Two-thirds of Americans, of all party affiliations, said, "Yes," but it went virtually unreported in mainstream media coverage.

"Illegal Immigration" is really about "Illegal Employers." As long as Democrats argue it on the basis of "illegal immigration" they'll lose, even when they're right. Instead, they need to be talking about "Illegal Employers."

Politically, it's not a civil rights issue, it's a jobs issue, as working Americans keep telling pollsters over and over again.

"Mass deportations" and "Fences" are hysterics and false choices. Start penalizing "Illegal Employers" and non-citizens without a Social Security number will leave the country on their own. And they won't have to confront death trying to cross the desert back into Mexico - Mexican citizens can simply walk back into Mexico across the border at any legal border crossing (as about a million did every year for over a century).

Tax law requires that an employer must verify the Social Security number of their employees in order to document, and thus deduct, the expense of their labor. This is a simple task, and some companies, like AMC Theatres, are already doing it.

For example, Cameron Barr wrote in The Washington Post on April 30, 2006, that: "At one area multiplex owned by AMC, the Rio 18 in Gaithersburg, 11 employees 'decided to resign' this month after they could not rectify discrepancies that arose during the screening, said Melanie Bell, a spokeswoman for AMC Entertainment Inc., which is based in Kansas City, Mo. She said such screening is a routine procedure that the company conducts across the United States."

Not wanting to be an Illegal Employer, the Post noted that AMC "has long submitted lists of its employees' Social Security numbers to the Social Security Administration for review. If discrepancies arise, she [company spokeswoman Bell] said in an e-mailed response to questions, 'we require the worker to provide their original Social Security card within 3 days or to immediately contact the local SSA office.' She said the process is part of payroll tax verification and occurs after hiring."

Easy, simple, cheap, painless. No fence required. No mass deportations necessary. No need for Homeland Security to get involved. When jobs are not available, most undocumented workers will simply leave the country (as they always did before), or begin the normal process to obtain citizenship that millions (including my own sister-in-law - this hits many of us close to home) go through each year.

Republicans, however, are not going to allow a discussion of "Illegal Employers." Instead, they will continue to hammer the issue of "Illegal Immigrants," and tie that political albatross around the necks of Democrats (who seem all too willing to accept it).

Bob Casey, for example, was beating the pants off Rick Santorum in the Pennsylvania senatorial campaign, until Santorum began running an ad that says:

"Bobby Casey announced his support of a Senate bill that grants amnesty to illegal immigrants, shocking hardworking taxpayers all across Pennsylvania. Now Casey's trying to wiggle out of it by saying the bill doesn't offer amnesty and requires illegal immigrants to pay their back taxes. Either Casey didn't read the bill, or he's trying to deceive you. The Washington Times reports the legislation gives amnesty to 11 million who are here illegally, and paves the way for 66 million more immigrants to enter the country. The bill also forgives two of the last five years of back taxes for illegal immigrants, something the IRS would never do for you. This Casey-supported bill even gives illegal aliens Social Security benefits for the time they were here illegally. Fortunately, Rick Santorum voted against the bill, and Rick's leading the fight to make sure it never becomes law. Now you know the advantage of having in our corner a fighter like Rick Santorum."
Casey is still ahead, but the ad is visibly eroding his support. As George Will pointed out in a June 18, 2006 op-ed titled "Calculating Immigration Politics":

"Many Republicans, looking for any silver lining in an abundance of dark clouds, think the immigration issue might be a silver bullet that will slay their current vulnerability. The issue is, as political people say, a 'two-fer.' Opposition to the Senate bill, and support for the House bill, puts Republican candidates where much of the country and most of their party's base currently is -- approximately: 'Fix the border; then maybe we can talk about other things.' And opposition to the Senate bill distances them from a president who, although rebounding recently, has approval ratings below 40 percent in 29 states."
Now even Bush is talking like the Republicans in the House of Representatives - time to "get tough" and give Halliburton a few hundred billion to build a fence.

But still nobody is talking about the real problem here - the Illegal Employers.

Hopefully one day soon a dialogue like this fictitious one may ensue on, for example, Face The Nation:

[Bob Schieffer] Senator, do you really think the solution to the illegal immigration problem in America is to offer amnesty instead of building a fence?

[Senator Stabenow] Bob, I think you've been drinking some of Karl Rove's Kool-Aid. Illegal immigrants aren't the cause of undocumented workers driving down wages in this country. It's caused by Illegal Employers. We need to do something about these corporate criminals.

[Bob Schieffer (baffled)] Illegal employers? But what about the illegal aliens?

[Senator Stabenow] Bob, the aliens wouldn't be here if they didn't think they could get a job. Of course, we need to clean up US agricultural subsidies and trade policies that are causing human suffering in our neighboring countries, but to truly protect the pay standards of workers here in the United States we need to crack down on the Illegal Employers. They're the magnets that are drawing people in from all over the world, many of whom come in as tourists and then overstay because they get illegal jobs. And these Illegal Employers are breaking the law - both immigration laws and IRS laws. I suggest that we need to tighten up these laws against Illegal Employers, adding huge fines for first offenses, jail time for CEOs for second offenses, and the corporate death penalty - dissolve their charters to operate - for repeat offenders.

[Bob Schieffer (stammering)] The, the, er, did you say "corporate death penalty"? You mean against companies?

[Senator Stabenow] Better companies die than human beings. These Illegal Employers, in their quest for ever-cheaper labor, are drawing people to cross our borders in ways that cause many people to die in the deserts of the southwest. These people were executed, for all practical purposes, by the policies of a few greedy and lawbreaking American companies. When companies are repeat offenders, they should be dissolved, their assets sold to reimburse their shareholders, and let other, more ethical companies pick up the slack. We used to do this all the time in America when companies behaved badly. Up until the 1880s, an average of around 2000 companies a year got the corporate death sentence in the US.

[Bob Schieffer (bug-eyed)] But what about the illegal immigration problem?

[Senator Stabenow (patting Schieffer's hand)] It's okay, Bob. You shouldn't listen so much to those Republicans. There isn't really much of an illegal immigration problem - it's an Illegal Employer problem. When we clear up the Illegal Employer problem in this country, we'll be back like we were before Reagan started allowing employers to behave illegally. When non-citizens can't get a job, most of them will go home, as they always have in the past. We don't need a fence, we don't need amnesty, we don't need mass roundups or deportations, and we for sure don't need guest workers. We have as many unemployed citizens in this nation as there are illegal immigrants - in my state of Michigan, for example, Flint and Detroit have massive unemployment since Reagan and his corporate cronies declared war on working people. When we get rid of Illegal Employers, that's one step in helping the job market tighten up so that legal employers will have to pay a living wage to attract legal citizens to work. That and rational labor and trade policies, and we can begin to restore our middle class and put our cities back together.

[Bob Schieffer (nodding)] It makes sense, Senator. An "Illegal Employer problem." Who would have thought of that?

[Senator Stabenow (smiling)] Well, Bob, the Republicans thought about it, back in the 1980s. But they thought it was a good idea. Which is why we have this mess today. Get rid of the Illegal Employers - toss a few CEOs into jail and shut down the outlaw companies - and the rest of this part of the problem will be easy and inexpensive to fix...



Thom Hartmann is a Project Censored Award-winning best-selling author, and host of a nationally syndicated daily progressive talk show carried on the Air America Radio network and Sirius. www.thomhartmann.com His most recent books include "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight," "Unequal Protection," "We The People: A Call To Take Back America," "What Would Jefferson Do?" and "Ultimate Sacrifice." His next book, due out this autumn, is "Screwed: The Undeclared War on the Middle Class and What We Can Do About It."
 

Kntx

Platinum Member
Dec 11, 2000
2,270
0
71
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: fitzov
Booo! I wan't my dirt cheap labor!

This is bad in the long run. The people employing these immigrants (like McD) can afford to and should pay 8-10$ per hour. A cheeseburger costs 30 cents or so to make. But they sell it for 89 cents. Even factoring in rent and paying for the people making the burger and taking the order, it costs maybe 55 cents. That means McD is making over 50% profit. That money is not going back to the middle class in America, it is going to the people up top who already have money; it is making them richer. If illegals were not allowed to work, and companies got busted for hiring them, places like McD would have to pay a lot more to get and keep their workers. This would be a good thing, as it would help redistribute the wealth. But as it is now, this cheap labor is sending all the money straight to the top (and a little out of the country). Eventually we won't have a choice but to eat at McD, because we can't afford anything else. Same goes with Walmart. McD should not be making 50% profit and keeping it at the top. We need immigration laws to force companies to pay Americans an American wage. I'd have so much more money saved to invest now if I had been payed $10/hour when I worked at McD.


So set a fair "American" minimum wage and be done with it!
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,323
14,725
146
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Kntx
So set a fair "American" minimum wage and be done with it!

Don't woryy they're working on it.

$3 DAY to match China and India.


Fixed that typo for ya Dave...
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
I was speaking to my father the other day about this very topic and he weighed in with some first hand experience. He was in construction(well putting in underground fiberoptic lines) anyways and had to work with a lot of illegals. He went on to tell of one guy who was 19 at the time this was occurring, he explained to my dad how the whole system works. They make up a fake SSN, which is NEVER crosschecked anywhere, with said fake SSN, this particular guy was claiming 8 dependents - at 19 years old!

Since they never actually check these things, this guy paid absolutely $0 income tax. There were 4 or 5 guys on his crew pulling off the exact same crap.

So for all of you apologists that claim that illegals are paying taxes etc, yeah maybe some are, but not the smart ones.