Illegal Immigration and its affects

[Bacstar]

My friend emailed me this link to this video that discusses the affects of illegal immigration and its affects on the population of the USA. It's definitely an eye opener.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ&NR

 

[Rainsford]

So?

Anybody who can do basic math can tell you that population will grow faster if you have immigration than if you don't. The real question is why I should care...at all...even a little bit. A country like ours has been largely built with immigration, the argument being made in the video is that it's somehow "bad" that the immigrants who made it here before 1970 won't still be the majority 50 years from now. Please explain to me why that's a problem.

Edit: I re-watched the video and see the answer to my question. The point is apparently that every immigrant who came before 1970 is an upstanding, hardworking citizen who helps this country move forward...and that every immigrant (legal or otherwise) SINCE 1970 is some poor dumb slob from the 3rd world who will NEVER, and who's decedents will NEVER, amount to anything other than a drain on society. That's awesome :roll:

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So?

Anybody who can do basic math can tell you that population will grow faster if you have immigration than if you don't. The real question is why I should care...at all...even a little bit. A country like ours has been largely built with immigration, the argument being made in the video is that it's somehow "bad" that the immigrants who made it here before 1970 won't still be the majority 50 years from now. Please explain to me why that's a problem.

Edit: I re-watched the video and see the answer to my question. The point is apparently that every immigrant who came before 1970 is an upstanding, hardworking citizen who helps this country move forward...and that every immigrant (legal or otherwise) SINCE 1970 is some poor dumb slob from the 3rd world who will NEVER, and who's decedents will NEVER, amount to anything other than a drain on society. That's awesome :roll:

The funny things is that that was the same thing said about the Irish, Jews, German, and Asian immigrants when they migrated back then.

 

[Bacstar]

I watched the video last night, and right now I'm at work, our internet connection is dog slow so i can't rewatch the video. But I don't think the video is anti-immigration altogether. He was illustrating the population growth as was projected back in the 70's with legal immigration.

Now...I'm supposing the population growth he indicated in red was due to the flow of illegal immigrants and due to the policies that are currently in place if this continued unabated, the USA is going to self-destruct. At the end of the clip, I think he even states that immigration into the country should be capped at the levels that were in place in 1965.

Just some backstory. My mother originally came to the United States in 1969 as a registered nurse from the Philippines. Their was a shortage of nurses. The rest of our family (my father and my sister) didn't come over until 1970. She petitioned us to come over through all the legal channels. I'm a citizen now. I've served in the military during Desert Storm, and i have no problems with immigration if you do it legally. The country can only let in so many people, and i think this video does put some perspective on what's happening today.

 

[babylon5]

We need more illegals. If you think things are cheap now, wait until we invite more illegals. Why stop at South America, when we can import Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners come in, and work even cheaper than what they're paid now? It'll drive down illegal wages even further. We need diversity, we don't want to get accused of racism by preferring only brown skin do we?? Black color, yellow color, even white color illegals can work as cheap. Why pay illegals $5 an hour washing dishes, when we illegals are brought in from other countries to cut prices to $2.5 an hour?

Destroy US border. Cum once, Cum all!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So?

Anybody who can do basic math can tell you that population will grow faster if you have immigration than if you don't. The real question is why I should care...at all...even a little bit. A country like ours has been largely built with immigration, the argument being made in the video is that it's somehow "bad" that the immigrants who made it here before 1970 won't still be the majority 50 years from now. Please explain to me why that's a problem.

Edit: I re-watched the video and see the answer to my question. The point is apparently that every immigrant who came before 1970 is an upstanding, hardworking citizen who helps this country move forward...and that every immigrant (legal or otherwise) SINCE 1970 is some poor dumb slob from the 3rd world who will NEVER, and who's decedents will NEVER, amount to anything other than a drain on society. That's awesome :roll:

The funny things is that that was the same thing said about the Irish, Jews, German, and Asian immigrants when they migrated back then.

Indeed. If there is anything we've learned from history, it's that we don't learn anything from history.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Bacstar
I watched the video last night, and right now I'm at work, our internet connection is dog slow so i can't rewatch the video. But I don't think the video is anti-immigration altogether. He was illustrating the population growth as was projected back in the 70's with legal immigration.

Now...I'm supposing the population growth he indicated in red was due to the flow of illegal immigrants and due to the policies that are currently in place if this continued unabated, the USA is going to self-destruct. At the end of the clip, I think he even states that immigration into the country should be capped at the levels that were in place in 1965.

Just some backstory. My mother originally came to the United States in 1969 as a registered nurse from the Philippines. Their was a shortage of nurses. The rest of our family (my father and my sister) didn't come over until 1970. She petitioned us to come over through all the legal channels. I'm a citizen now. I've served in the military during Desert Storm, and i have no problems with immigration if you do it legally. The country can only let in so many people, and i think this video does put some perspective on what's happening today.

Watch it again, the projected "population growth" from the 70s was based on NO immigration, the red was based on ALL immigration (legal or otherwise). And you can use words like "self-destruct" all you want, you still haven't answered my question.

 

[Stunt]

a) Population costs but also generates wealth. If higher population was a liability, the US's 300m people wouldn't be sustainable compared to Canada's 30m or UK's 60m.
b) He mentions the additional schools California has to build a year again focusing on the costs when 40% of California immigrants are asian and asian americans have a higher average income than white americans.
c) Without population growth, the US economy would not have experienced the growth it has.
d) Even today with skilled immigrants coming into our countries, we will still have a difficult time replacing retiring baby boomers.

His argument is ridiculous...

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Stunt
a) Population costs but also generates wealth. If higher population was a liability, the US's 300m people wouldn't be sustainable compared to Canada's 30m or UK's 60m.
b) He mentions the additional schools California has to build a year again focusing on the costs when 40% of California immigrants are asian and asian americans have a higher average income than white americans.
c) Without population growth, the US economy would not have experienced the growth it has.
d) Even today with skilled immigrants coming into our countries, we will still have a difficult time replacing retiring baby boomers.

His argument is ridiculous...

Are illegals invading Canada as well?

 

[Starbuck1975]

The analysis is a bit misguided in that it chooses to use a point in the 1970s as the origin of the graph.

Would be interested to chart population growth in this country during the immigration waves that came to America around the turn of the 20th century.

Immigration is not a bad thing...unregulated immigration is a potential time bomb, and a whole other story.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Stunt
a) Population costs but also generates wealth. If higher population was a liability, the US's 300m people wouldn't be sustainable compared to Canada's 30m or UK's 60m.
b) He mentions the additional schools California has to build a year again focusing on the costs when 40% of California immigrants are asian and asian americans have a higher average income than white americans.
c) Without population growth, the US economy would not have experienced the growth it has.
d) Even today with skilled immigrants coming into our countries, we will still have a difficult time replacing retiring baby boomers.

His argument is ridiculous...

Are illegals invading Canada as well?

Actually, Canada has a long history of temporary worker programs. In my region where we grow lots of vegetables and tobacco, we bring in many people from latin america and the carribean. These people have a tendency to stay illegally. Similarly we brought many Chinese workers to build our railway in the 1900's and paid them $15 for months of work and high death rates with no compensation. The decendents of these temporary workers still live in Canada and now represent a good portion of the population.

So yes, we have had and still have temporary workers who have received amnesty. They are hard working Canadians and are just as deserving of a first world lifestyle as I am.

 

[Bacstar]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Watch it again, the projected "population growth" from the 70s was based on NO immigration, the red was based on ALL immigration (legal or otherwise). And you can use words like "self-destruct" all you want, you still haven't answered my question.

I didn't get the whole immigrants are bad for american society message from the video. I'm an immigrant myself and consider myself an United States citizen first. However, I do agree that immigration into the country needs to be controlled. He even prefaces the video that all discussion concerning the topic of immigration, be it legal or illegal, needs to consider the numbers of people and services that are affected. Should we care about color, race, religion, etc of the people coming into the country? I certainly hope not. Did i get that from the video...not on my first viewing. I'll rewatch it sometime this weekend and pay special attention.

Now that I find myself getting more interested in certain discussions, probably due to my aging nature. I like to hear other people's thoughts and feelings.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Bacstar

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Watch it again, the projected "population growth" from the 70s was based on NO immigration, the red was based on ALL immigration (legal or otherwise). And you can use words like "self-destruct" all you want, you still haven't answered my question.

I didn't get the whole immigrants are bad for american society message from the video. I'm an immigrant myself and consider myself an United States citizen first. However, I do agree that immigration into the country needs to be controlled. He even prefaces the video that all discussion concerning the topic of immigration, be it legal or illegal, needs to consider the numbers of people and services that are affected. Should we care about color, race, religion, etc of the people coming into the country? I certainly hope not. Did i get that from the video...not on my first viewing. I'll rewatch it sometime this weekend and pay special attention.

Now that I find myself getting more interested in certain discussions, probably due to my aging nature. I like to hear other people's thoughts and feelings.

You are an immigrant?!
You cost Americans way too much money! Look at all the schools and hospitals the US has to build now!
We know immigrants don't contribute to the economy or pay one cent of taxes...:roll:

An immigrant is no more of a drain on society than an American citizen.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975


Immigration is not a bad thing...unregulated immigration is a potential time bomb, and a whole other story.

The problem is all we get is the uneducated people willing to do the crap jobs.

If we were to let MD's, engineers, accountants, etc. in and let them practice if they could pass the proper test/tests you can bet there would be a crack down. It's obvious to me that all these supposedly kind hearted people would look at things differently if they felt it was their bull being gored.

So, why is it you have to be willing to pick lettuce before your welcome to come here, why aren't you good hearted folk up in arms to open up the doors to the educated people who want to immigrate to the USA?

Hypocrites all!!

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: Stunt
a) Population costs but also generates wealth. If higher population was a liability, the US's 300m people wouldn't be sustainable compared to Canada's 30m or UK's 60m.
b) He mentions the additional schools California has to build a year again focusing on the costs when 40% of California immigrants are asian and asian americans have a higher average income than white americans.
c) Without population growth, the US economy would not have experienced the growth it has.
d) Even today with skilled immigrants coming into our countries, we will still have a difficult time replacing retiring baby boomers.

His argument is ridiculous...

Okay lets say the U.S. government grants amnesty to the 30 million illegals here already. Within a few years they are able to bring family in legally. How will 150 million more immigrants create wealth? The legal taxpayers in the U.S. will be envious of countries with only 50% tax rate then.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: Bacstar

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Watch it again, the projected "population growth" from the 70s was based on NO immigration, the red was based on ALL immigration (legal or otherwise). And you can use words like "self-destruct" all you want, you still haven't answered my question.

I didn't get the whole immigrants are bad for american society message from the video. I'm an immigrant myself and consider myself an United States citizen first. However, I do agree that immigration into the country needs to be controlled. He even prefaces the video that all discussion concerning the topic of immigration, be it legal or illegal, needs to consider the numbers of people and services that are affected. Should we care about color, race, religion, etc of the people coming into the country? I certainly hope not. Did i get that from the video...not on my first viewing. I'll rewatch it sometime this weekend and pay special attention.

Now that I find myself getting more interested in certain discussions, probably due to my aging nature. I like to hear other people's thoughts and feelings.

You are an immigrant?!
You cost Americans way too much money! Look at all the schools and hospitals the US has to build now!
We know immigrants don't contribute to the economy or pay one cent of taxes...:roll:

An immigrant is no more of a drain on society than an American citizen.

Well I'm glad to see SOMEONE gets my point

Seriously, that was exactly the point I'm trying to make. All of this "immigration is bad" nonsense seems to leave WHY it's bad as an exercise to the reader. The guy in the video shows some super cool graphs and numbers, but apparently we're supposed to guess as to why exactly we should care. The US has more people today than it did 200 years ago, the VAST majority of that population due to immigration (illegal or otherwise). Is that a bad thing? According to the guy in the video, it IS a bad thing. But WHY that's true? Beats the hell out of me!

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: Stunt
a) Population costs but also generates wealth. If higher population was a liability, the US's 300m people wouldn't be sustainable compared to Canada's 30m or UK's 60m.
b) He mentions the additional schools California has to build a year again focusing on the costs when 40% of California immigrants are asian and asian americans have a higher average income than white americans.
c) Without population growth, the US economy would not have experienced the growth it has.
d) Even today with skilled immigrants coming into our countries, we will still have a difficult time replacing retiring baby boomers.

His argument is ridiculous...

Okay lets say the U.S. government grants amnesty to the 30 million illegals here already. Within a few years they are able to bring family in legally. How will 150 million more immigrants create wealth? The legal taxpayers in the U.S. will be envious of countries with only 50% tax rate then.

Because immigrants do work, earn money, and spend it buying goods and services. That's how wealth is created, ask any econ professor, or anyone who payed attention in high school. Beyond that, low skilled, low wage immigrants not only provider a good "base" for higher skilled workers, they also make American services more competitive with traditionally low cost countries. So not only do we have immigrants picking oranges and spending that money in the US, we also have the former orange pickers going on to become software engineers, earning far more and adding even more to the economy. It doesn't work exactly like that in practice, of course, but the basic idea is that it's better for a person to be earning and spending his money here than in another country.

You people seem to be making this basic assumption, probably fueled by too much Bill O'Reilly viewing, that all illegal immigrants are lazy mooches who do nothing but come here, lay on the couch all day, and collect welfare checks. But there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence to back that opinion up...

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: Stunt
a) Population costs but also generates wealth. If higher population was a liability, the US's 300m people wouldn't be sustainable compared to Canada's 30m or UK's 60m.
b) He mentions the additional schools California has to build a year again focusing on the costs when 40% of California immigrants are asian and asian americans have a higher average income than white americans.
c) Without population growth, the US economy would not have experienced the growth it has.
d) Even today with skilled immigrants coming into our countries, we will still have a difficult time replacing retiring baby boomers.

His argument is ridiculous...

Okay lets say the U.S. government grants amnesty to the 30 million illegals here already. Within a few years they are able to bring family in legally. How will 150 million more immigrants create wealth? The legal taxpayers in the U.S. will be envious of countries with only 50% tax rate then.

Lets see what happens if you grant amnesty:
a) social programs; already paying for this
b) jobs; they are already working and self sufficient
c) you get to collect income tax

Sounds like a good deal to me.
Although for me...the amnesty debate comes down to the opportunity cost of income taxes versus an efficient labour force willing to work for much less than is legal. This creates more wealth for citizens and creates more jobs that would otherwise not exist.

 

[1EZduzit]

Apparently your chickenshits too.

 

[Stunt]

I have no idea where you are getting "150 million more" from; Mexico's population is 107 million.

 

[Bacstar]

So...what does the country need to do???

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Apparently your chickenshits too.

Best argument ever...*one hand clap*

I'm a chickenshit or my chicken shits?

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Bacstar
So...what does the country need to do???

Personally I think the benefits to illegal immigration are 4-fold.
a) Allowing those less fortunate the opportunity to build wealth in an entitlement free environment; capitalism at its best, I truly admire illegals.
b) The low cost labour makes the US economy far more efficient and productive; everyone's standard of living is increased with illegal workers.
c) GDP growth is accelerated as people of little wealth are brought up to the standard of living all Americans are accustomed to. Raising the wealth of people who are already extremely wealthy is difficult relative to taking someone who doesn't consume anything.
d) The expansion of the economy and population will maintain the US's status as a superpower. China and India have programs to reduce population growth as they never had a wealthy base to start with. Much like Germany did with the poorer eastern Germany, the US will have no problem sustaining a high standard of living with hard working and productive immigrants. With the US at 450million (by 2050) it will have no problem maintaining its superpower status, even against countries such as China.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So?

Anybody who can do basic math can tell you that population will grow faster if you have immigration than if you don't. The real question is why I should care...at all...even a little bit. A country like ours has been largely built with immigration, the argument being made in the video is that it's somehow "bad" that the immigrants who made it here before 1970 won't still be the majority 50 years from now. Please explain to me why that's a problem.

Edit: I re-watched the video and see the answer to my question. The point is apparently that every immigrant who came before 1970 is an upstanding, hardworking citizen who helps this country move forward...and that every immigrant (legal or otherwise) SINCE 1970 is some poor dumb slob from the 3rd world who will NEVER, and who's decedents will NEVER, amount to anything other than a drain on society. That's awesome :roll:

This country was built on the back of slaves too, should we reconstitute slavery? The real question that needs to be asked is not being asked and that's whether it's beneficial to have immigration today in the here and now. All indicators is it's not beneficial to the indigenous population not just over crowding, stressed social services, but also it displaces many very lower income groups from jobs altogether rendering our inner cities wastelands of unemployment and crime. Using your silly argument that country was built on immigrants, the more the merrier, etc we should have open borders and even fly people here that want to be.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Apparently your chickenshits too.

Best argument ever...*one hand clap*

I'm a chickenshit or my chicken shits?

I know you, you used to come over to my house on Sundays and eat chickenshit, I know you.