If you were hiring a manager...

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: kranky
It depends on the job I'm looking to fill, but all else being equal I'd take the person with experience in a managerial role.

A degree is important, but I also think a management degree does not equip people to be managers.

on the flipside of that, sometimes having a candidate that is full of ideas spawned from all that schooling is easier to assimilate into your ways easier than a manager that has been doing it for a long time and is set in their ways.

it would become a decision based on their interviews for me, id have to weigh their management styles and know-how individually, and see which one fits better in the grand scheme of the company. yup, im no help at all.

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: JS80
Depends on field and position.

No it doesn't. Somebody that has proven they can do a job in the real world is infinitely more desirable than someone that has a piece of paper saying they could marginally do it in theory. That's in every field and every position.

they have proven it worked in the situation they were in, with the crews they were managing. put them in charge of a different group of men and all that goes out the window. the degreed manager would have a base of skills to fall back on to change their management style based on their crew, not just years of managing guys their own way. we have all styles of managers here, and they are all construction crews for the most part. the managers that werent able to change their style of management based on the crew they were in charge of didnt last long. the ones that were competent enough to adapt and persevere are the ones we still have on the books. ironically we dont have one degreed manager, lol. well, there are degrees involved, but not one has a "management" degree.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
experience > degree, but entry level can save money. all depends what the specific needs and budget are

Just another point worth mentioning, just because someone has experience doing something doesn't immediately make them good at it, or better than someone with no experience could be.

It is a lazy approach of hiring to simply go on experience and not looking into the actual individual (and provide coaching where necessary). Also consider, why is this great manager with experience looking for a job?

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I would never hire a manager who didn't have experience managing, regardless of degree type.

Never? If everyone followed your lead, in a generation or two we'd be in a lot of trouble.....

Not true whatsoever. You don't have to be a manager to get management experience (read: work leadership, team/project lead, etc.)

That's a stretch. I'll take that as "you're right, Deeko, I should have further clarified my bold, foolish statement"

That's not a stretch at all, as all positions utilize management skills. You can take it however you want; however, I am sorry you lack the brain function to think beyond a single term.

 

[tallest1]

I'd hire the guy with the degree. You can't teach an old dog new tricks and if the old guy isn't what you expect then too bad, you'll be stuck with him for the next 10 years 'cause he ain't gonna quit. You can at least brainwash the newbie into working hard for pennies

 

[waggy]

messy question.

would i hire someone just because they have experiance managing? well again thats a loaded question. a person who manages a 3 person team is not going to be the same as one who does 20+.


Same with a degree. just because you have a degree does not mean you know what you are doing.

it really depends on the job, the person, etc. to many variables to give a clear answere.

 

[torpid]

Probably the experienced guy, but there are very few things worse in life than working under an "experienced" manager in an IT shop where the manager doesn't understand basic IT stuff and tells you to do stuff that runs counter to the last 30+ years of IT. I'd rather have a guy out of college as a manager than someone who doesn't believe in learning or industry standards.

 

[rasczak]

sorry to thread crap, but for someone with no degree, how would you break into managing? are there ATOT'ers out there that have gone that route?

 

[joesmoke]

Originally posted by: torpid
Probably the experienced guy, but there are very few things worse in life than working under an "experienced" manager in an IT shop where the manager doesn't understand basic IT stuff and tells you to do stuff that runs counter to the last 30+ years of IT. I'd rather have a guy out of college as a manager than someone who doesn't believe in learning or industry standards.

wouldnt a good manager go to the guy w/ 30+ years of IT experience for his expert opinion on things?

 

[joesmoke]

Originally posted by: rasczak
sorry to thread crap, but for someone with no degree, how would you break into managing? are there ATOT'ers out there that have gone that route?

might someone who has proven themselves to be intelligent, capable, and understanding of the business situation be given a leadership role and some resources (people) to oversee completion of a project? also what about situations where a boss retires/promotes and there is a natural incumbent?

 

[joesmoke]

thats again for all the replies... a lot of great arguments for both sides.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: JS80
Depends on field and position.

Do you even bother reading the posts you reply to? This is your 3rd retarded post today, within about an hour. He clearly said the field would be management.

I would prefer the one without a degree if they have good references. When it comes to managing people and tasks, there is no substitute for hands-on experience. If it were a technical position, I'm not sure which I would choose. There are skills necessary for managing other human beings that you cannot learn in school.

Is it accounting or engineering? Burger joint or law firm in NY?

It matters.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: JS80
Depends on field and position.

Do you even bother reading the posts you reply to? This is your 3rd retarded post today, within about an hour. He clearly said the field would be management.

I would prefer the one without a degree if they have good references. When it comes to managing people and tasks, there is no substitute for hands-on experience. If it were a technical position, I'm not sure which I would choose. There are skills necessary for managing other human beings that you cannot learn in school.

Is it accounting or engineering? Burger joint or law firm in NY?

It matters.

What else would you expect from Nik the Dik

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: joesmoke

Originally posted by: torpid
Probably the experienced guy, but there are very few things worse in life than working under an "experienced" manager in an IT shop where the manager doesn't understand basic IT stuff and tells you to do stuff that runs counter to the last 30+ years of IT. I'd rather have a guy out of college as a manager than someone who doesn't believe in learning or industry standards.

wouldnt a good manager go to the guy w/ 30+ years of IT experience for his expert opinion on things?

No need for a guy with 30+ years. Anyone with updated skill sets who keeps up on best practices would be enough. A good manager would listen to them, yes. But an experienced manager who thinks that mainframe screen design theory applies to the web, not so much.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend
I would never hire a manager who didn't have experience managing, regardless of degree type.

Never? If everyone followed your lead, in a generation or two we'd be in a lot of trouble.....

Not true whatsoever. You don't have to be a manager to get management experience (read: work leadership, team/project lead, etc.)

That's a stretch. I'll take that as "you're right, Deeko, I should have further clarified my bold, foolish statement"

That's not a stretch at all, as all positions utilize management skills. You can take it however you want; however, I am sorry you lack the brain function to think beyond a single term.

Boring, you were wrong, and you know it.

Leadership experience can be loosely applied to management experience, but they are not one and the same.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Boring, you were wrong, and you know it.

Leadership experience can be loosely applied to management experience, but they are not one and the same.

Jesus, you sound like a little kid. If you want to get in a debate over leadership v. management, by all means we can. However, that has no bearing on what I stated, as all the positions require experience with both to perform successfully.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Deeko

Boring, you were wrong, and you know it.

Leadership experience can be loosely applied to management experience, but they are not one and the same.

Jesus, you sound like a little kid. If you want to get in a debate over leadership v. management, by all means we can. However, that has no bearing on what I stated, as all the positions require experience with both to perform successfully.

Hmmm says the guy that was insulting my intelligence in an unprompted fashion? That screams of little kid on the grocery store floor, kicking and screaming even though he knows he's wrong.

And it has everything to do with what you said, again...you just don't want to admit it.

 

[DainBramaged]

Never hired a manager, but I'd go with the person with experience.

Personal opinion, but experience is required to prove that you can do the things that you learned in your degree. You can learn these things without having the degree.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: Ns1
experience > degree

degree + experience > *

So you'd rather hire an incompetent idiot that has years of experience over a young guy who's sharp and a quick learner?

It *can* be hard to tell that in an interview, you would have to rely on references.

 

[SacrosanctFiend]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: SacrosanctFiend

Originally posted by: Deeko

Boring, you were wrong, and you know it.

Leadership experience can be loosely applied to management experience, but they are not one and the same.

Jesus, you sound like a little kid. If you want to get in a debate over leadership v. management, by all means we can. However, that has no bearing on what I stated, as all the positions require experience with both to perform successfully.

Hmmm says the guy that was insulting my intelligence in an unprompted fashion? That screams of little kid on the grocery store floor, kicking and screaming even though he knows he's wrong.

And it has everything to do with what you said, again...you just don't want to admit it.

Says the guy who extrapolated from my counterpoint that I knew I was wrong with my original "foolish statement," and I am trying to hide it. I have no problem admitting I was wrong, when I am.

However, I should bow to your ultimate knowledge and your ability to read my mind, regardless of the fact that management experience is widely known to be garnered through many types of roles, and the fact that you apparently lack basic knowledge of the distinction between leadership and management. I apologize for my generality in statement, and you should consider the point conceded.

 

[kranky]

Originally posted by: joesmoke

Originally posted by: rasczak
sorry to thread crap, but for someone with no degree, how would you break into managing? are there ATOT'ers out there that have gone that route?

might someone who has proven themselves to be intelligent, capable, and understanding of the business situation be given a leadership role and some resources (people) to oversee completion of a project? also what about situations where a boss retires/promotes and there is a natural incumbent?

Without a degree I would use this strategy:
Be totally dependable.
Don't make excuses.
Let your word be your bond.
Find out what your boss wants, and give it to him/her. This means be adaptable.
Avoid cliques.
Volunteer for projects. Volunteer for leadership roles (but not every time) like employee committees, picnic organizers, or whatever opportunities present themselves.
Be a hard worker. If your boss puts in extra time, you put in extra time.
And make up for your lack of a degree by reading and studying on your own so you know something about management.

In other words, demonstrate by your work and actions that you are management material. You will be a lot closer to getting that job if you have proven you can do it, rather than hoping someone will see potential that's never been shown.

 

[ColdFusion718]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Experience, every time. Being a good student does not always translate into real life.

But experience only takes you so far before the holes in one's knowledge catches up to them.

Let me give you an example. My supervisor has an associate's degree in accounting but he's been in our field for 6+ years. Once in a while he'll encounter stuff that he has no idea how to solve (holes in his knowledge) and he struggles with it for weeks on end.

Then he gives it to me and I basically know the answer immediately because it was knowledge I acquired directly from school, which I wouldn't have if I didn't get the degree.

People can always gain experience. But sometimes when you don't know shit that you must know, well experience isn't going to help you there now would it?

 

[kranky]

Originally posted by: ColdFusion718

Originally posted by: OCguy
Experience, every time. Being a good student does not always translate into real life.

But experience only takes you so far before the holes in one's knowledge catches up to them.

Let me give you an example. My supervisor has an associate's degree in accounting but he's been in our field for 6+ years. Once in a while he'll encounter stuff that he has no idea how to solve (holes in his knowledge) and he struggles with it for weeks on end.

Then he gives it to me and I basically know the answer immediately because it was knowledge I acquired directly from school, which I wouldn't have if I didn't get the degree.

People can always gain experience. But sometimes when you don't know shit that you must know, well experience isn't going to help you there now would it?

Well, maybe. But the best manager isn't necessarily the person who knows the most about the work. For example, the smartest engineers usually are horrible managers. Promote the best engineer to a manager position and not only do you get a bad manager, you lose a great engineer. Heck, the least-skilled person in one of my groups knows more than I do about the work. But they tell me I'm good at managing the group, identifying what improvements need to be made, getting the other departments to go along with what we want to do and changing the system for the better.