If you put in 8 hours/day every week, should you receive a wage you can live upon?

[Vic]

It's disgusting (but not surprising) that leftists believe that the act of two individuals trading, one of the most basic concepts of human interaction, exists only because others allow it to exist.

I can just see the leftwing cavemen standing around, watching as the rightwing cavemen were trading , and deciding that it wasn't fair that they be allowed to trade their berries and sharpened sticks without giving some of their berries and sticks to the cavemen who sat around all day doing nothing.

The left is little more than the mob demanding protection money.

What about what the right does when they don't like what's being traded?

Seriously, step away from the keyboard for a while. This isn't the real world.

 

[Apple Of Sodom]

I honestly think we need to redefine what "living wage" really means. People like me, and I am willing to bet BoberFett, wouldn't mind more government assistance if it was in different ways.

No cell phone subsidies, nicotine, alcohol and drug testing for anyone receiving any type of welfare and food stamps would not be allowed to buy anything name brand (Doritos, Coke) or junk food - basic meats and vegetables only. Housing assistance is fine, but not every single person needs their own home.

I am fine with helping out. I know not everyone is born white and middle class (an advantage, but I didn't choose to be born that way either so don't blame me.)

I used to have a multi unit apartment with several section 8 renters. Of the 12 or 15 I encountered, only ONE was a nice lady with kids and trying to put herself throug school. Every single other renter was an asshole scamming the system.

 

[BoberFett]

Yes I do believe a "commoner" in the United States, the worlds largest economy (still?), is entitled to financial security as reward for working full time. Yes I believe this is a "better life" than a "commoner" in the 3rd world.

Oh, so you're a racist?

 

[Lithium381]

What about what the right does when they don't like what's being traded?

Seriously, step away from the keyboard for a while. This isn't the real world.

Good point, people seem to forget that politics isn't just a single scale from left to right. . . within that there are also statists and libertarians..
those that wish to impose their own utopia on everyone through law (which is the threat of force) are statists/authoritarians....

 

[Matt1970]

Obviously, I don't disagree with that. My point is that the free market dogmatists are evading reality when they spout the stale, "get an education so you can get a better job" bromide. By spouting off that stale bromide, they can evade having to address whether the top 5% should be allowed to have the bulk of the wealth produced and whether there are more just ways of distributing the wealth.

It's not stale. And you lose all credibility making this about what the top 5% "should be allowed to have". The thing you will find in great abundance in the top 5% is college degrees. Do you want to wait on government handouts for your "fair" share of the pie, or do you want to get it yourself?

 

[BoberFett]

Outside of your psychotic fantasy world, the government does indeed have the right to dictate wages.

And this is one of the fundamental disconnects between conservative and liberal economics.

Do you realize that wages are just another form of trade? One person trading money for another person's time.

If two children at lunch decide that they want to trade one's apple for the other's orange, does the government get to dictate the terms of that trade? Set the apple and orange on a scale to determine if it's a fair trade? Demand that the orange be peeled before the trade can be completed?

 

[BoberFett]

It is called "greed", and it is destroying this nation.

Oh, so the poor aren't greedy? They don't want more than what they have currently?

 

[boomerang]

Quote: Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper Obviously, I don't disagree with that. My point is that the free market dogmatists are evading reality when they spout the stale, "get an education so you can get a better job" bromide. By spouting off that stale bromide, they can evade having to address whether the top 5% should be allowed to have the bulk of the wealth produced and whether there are more just ways of distributing the wealth. The top 5%? I think you need to examine which income levels constitute the top 5% before you make statements like that. Many of us are in the top 5% and aren't by any stretch "rich."

C'mon now, it's not that hard. Anyone that makes more than him is a part of the bourgeoisie and must have their income confiscated. This mode of thinking has been taught and is being taught in our schools right now. We're teaching and raising children to think like he thinks. It's little more than brainwashing. When they reach adulthood, some become our president and still think the same. They then have the power to implement their 'progressive' ideals. Hint: They're not progressive, they're old methodologies that never worked and never will. But to these people they're new and righteous.

 

[BoberFett]

What about what the right does when they don't like what's being traded?

Seriously, step away from the keyboard for a while. This isn't the real world.

I'm talking about the fiscal right, not the religious right. The pure fiscal right would make trade in anything legal.

As for your second comment, I really expect better than that from you Vic.

 

[flexy]

it's scary that people think that if you hold a job, the company that employs you is required to make sure you're comforatable, have enough to pay for that new car you wanted, buy you a house, and pay for your kids college. None of those are the company's problem!

That's not what the OP proposed.

The OP said "a roof over your head and being able to put food on the table".
There is still ways to "being able to purchase car(s) and buying a house"

And yes...even someone working a ***y job at McD should be able to afford a cheap roof over their head and basic food.

Isn't this the MAIN PURPOSE of a job?

 

[nehalem256]

What about what the right does when they don't like what's being traded?

What about when the left doesn't like what is being traded. See for example LA making porn without condoms illegal.

 

[flexy]

>>
I'll take a controversial stance for the sake of discussion: I'll say that if you put in a solid 40 hours of honest work a week, you should be able to put food on your own table
>>

For me it seems that the only country on earth where such a statement is "controversial" is the US. Honestly, elsewhere this question wouldn't even come up.

MIND YOU: We're talking basics here, not a life in luxury. If you do in-fact think someone working 40hrs/week but not being able to afford basics foods and a cheaper place to live is "ok"...in my opinion something must be mentally wrong with you.

 

[Lithium381]

My mistake, I thought you were someone far more intelligent.

Having the right to regulate something is different than actually having the power to regulate something. You stated the gov't had the "right" to regulate wages and when I asked you on what basis that right exists, you merely confirmed that the gov't does indeed regulate wages (as if that wasn't common knowledge). Forget I asked.

Yep, two COMPLETELY different things..... oft forgotten due to excessive indoctrination in the public school system.

 

[boomerang]

That's not what the OP proposed.

The OP said "a roof over your head and being able to put food on the table".
There is still ways to "being able to purchase car(s) and buying a house"

And yes...even someone working a ***y job at McD should be able to afford a cheap roof over their head and basic food.

Isn't this the MAIN PURPOSE of a job?

Are people that work at McD's living on the streets and going without meals?

 

[Lithium381]

That's not what the OP proposed.

The OP said "a roof over your head and being able to put food on the table".
There is still ways to "being able to purchase car(s) and buying a house"

And yes...even someone working a ***y job at McD should be able to afford a cheap roof over their head and basic food.

Isn't this the MAIN PURPOSE of a job?

yeah, working 40 hours a week even at current minimum wage is enough to live on.... for an individual.

 

[Vic]

I'm talking about the fiscal right, not the religious right. The pure fiscal right would make trade in anything legal.

As for your second comment, I really expect better than that from you Vic.

The fiscal right doesn't exist in America anymore, except as a loose cover for the religious right. Who do they rally around: Paul Ryan or Phil Robertson?

And sorry if you took offense, but I meant it. ATPN in no way resembles the real world.

 

[Vic]

Yep, two COMPLETELY different things..... oft forgotten due to excessive indoctrination in the public school system.

Case in point: the "indoctrination in the public school system" rhetoric comes from the religious right opposing the teaching of science in schools.

 

[Vic]

" I am conscious that an equal division of property is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property..[a] means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise."
Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison (October 28, 1785)

Communist?

 

[Lithium381]

Case in point: the "indoctrination in the public school system" rhetoric comes from the religious right opposing the teaching of science in schools.

i really don't associate with the religious right. . . i learned science in school and enjoyed it. i'm talking about learning our history and how 'Murica is so free because we can vote and government is good!

 

[soulcougher73]

Wages are based on the value they create, not what a person "should earn". The two numbers of nothing to do with one another. If you mandate a "living wage" (which is a meaningless phrase thrown around by people who aren't willing to actually use a hard number) then jobs that produce less than that value will simply be eliminated.

Of course you cant use a hard number. As it is different per city/state. What works in KS wont work in CA obviously. That is why you never see hard numbers.

 

[theeedude]

It's not stale. And you lose all credibility making this about what the top 5% "should be allowed to have". The thing you will find in great abundance in the top 5% is college degrees. Do you want to wait on government handouts for your "fair" share of the pie, or do you want to get it yourself?

That's household income. For two people it's not much income, even with college degree. But for Koch funded think-tank to acknowledge "rising inequality in America today" is progress.

 

[Vic]

i really don't associate with the religious right. . . i learned science in school and enjoyed it. i'm talking about learning our history and how 'Murica is so free because we can vote and government is good!

"I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."
Thomas Jefferson, 1786 August 13. Letter to George Wythe

Big government socialist?

 

[schmuckley]

And you look to the rest of the undeveloped world and there are hordes of people who work much harder than average American yet has a small fraction of the life that American has.

Barriers of transportation & communication helped allow the U.S. worker to prop himself up above the rest of the world. Those barriers are coming down. Worldwide travel and worldwide communication continues to improve as every year goes by. The working class abroad is rising up at the expense of the working class in the U.S.

It has little to do with politics. It has little to do with conservative versus liberal. It has little to do with whether your representative in gov't has a D or an R next to his name. It has much to do with those who place their value in the world above where it really is at.

Spoken like a true"New World Orderer"
It does have to do with politics.
How to fix (No particular order of importance)
a)Deport illegals.This will ease burden on social services and open up American jobs.
b)Lower government tax rate on fuel by around 50% They have their hand in the till way too much there.
c)Cut unnecessary and wasteful federal and state services.i.e.:"Czars" "Homeland Security" "TSA"
d)Levy tariffs on imported goods to promote American production.

It's not rocket surgery

 

[BoberFett]

The fiscal right doesn't exist in America anymore, except as a loose cover for the religious right.

Who do they rally around: Paul Ryan or Phil Robertson?

Why must one "rally" around a figurehead politician? What happened to independent thought?

And sorry if you took offense, but I meant it. ATPN in no way resembles the real world.

You do realize, of course, that the opinions of those who post here are the result of our interactions with the "real world", yes?

 

[BoberFett]

Of course you cant use a hard number. As it is different per city/state. What works in KS wont work in CA obviously. That is why you never see hard numbers.

Then let San Fran and New York set their minimum wages at whatever they want.

"Oh, but the jobs will run off to Kansas!" the leftists will cry "So we need a federal livable wage mandate!"

Until it's pointed out that what works in KS won't work in CA...